List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[stavro#4]

Hall isn't under 23. Tauru is still a long way off AA at this point. He's super promising but so was Dunstan at 18.

We have more talent in U23 players now then at any point since maybe 2003/4

We likely hit the draft again for more.

The question we need to ask and somehow answer is; how do we get them to do what that 2003/04 group did - which is explode as a collective at AFL level.

Do we liken their growth to the strength of performances to senior players as per that group - Gehrig turned into a star in that period. Harvey Hudghton Hamill Peckett Powell etc all still at high levels?

Do we put the onus on them to lift the group? That also feels very north like and they show the pitfalls of that.

 

[phantom13]

We have more talent in U23 players now then at any point since maybe 2003/4

We likely hit the draft again for more.

The question we need to ask and somehow answer is; how do we get them to do what that 2003/04 group did - which is explode as a collective at AFL level.

Do we liken their growth to the strength of performances to senior players as per that group - Gehrig turned into a star in that period. Harvey Hudghton Hamill Peckett Powell etc all still at high levels?

Do we put the onus on them to lift the group? That also feels very north like and they show the pitfalls of that.

Unfortunately (or fortunately i guess) we feel a bit North like. Star forward who could win a coleman in a poor team. Talented pillars defensively (noting theyve got nothing like Wilkie) and a fleet of good kids (they have MORE talent but we have Nas).

I do think Clarko is completely ****ing checked out there, i remember our game against them last year he didnt even bother adressing the group at three quarter time and they really do seem to have accepted and gotten comfortable in their mediocrity.

At this point they look stuck being a mini development camp for good players.

 

[BrutThough]

Hes a 2 time AA isnt he (20 and 21).

I recall being pretty shocked by his AA in 2020, just statistically I dont think he had a 30 touch game? But he was doing the run with role and beating his opponents hands down.

21 he was elite and a brownlow fancy.

I reckon he fell out of form for the most part post that, in that he was solid without being spectacular at any point.

I also reckon hes looked pretty good the last few weeks.

He came equal 3rd in the Brownlow in 2020 (equal with Petrecca) and was considered a lock for All Australian by most experts.

 

[TassieSaint]

Hes a 2 time AA isnt he (20 and 21).

I recall being pretty shocked by his AA in 2020, just statistically I dont think he had a 30 touch game? But he was doing the run with role and beating his opponents hands down.

21 he was elite and a brownlow fancy.

I reckon he fell out of form for the most part post that, in that he was solid without being spectacular at any point.

I also reckon hes looked pretty good the last few weeks.

He was elite in 2020, AA, BnF, top 5 in both the players and coaches MVP. Was very much not doing a run with role, but going head to head and winning. No point looking at disposal stats that year with the shorter quarters

Anyway we're getting well off topic...

 

[phantom13]

He came equal 3rd in the Brownlow in 2020 (equal with Petrecca) and was considered a lock for All Australian by most experts.

Yeh im not disputing that, im just saying i recall looking at his stats and thinking on paper it didnt look like a great year by any heights. Also made the point he was playing that run with role and beating his opponents.

Jesus youd think i just said the campaigner was a hack, its an observation mate, chill.

 

[phantom13]

He was elite in 2020, AA, BnF, top 5 in both the players and coaches MVP. Was very much not doing a run with role, but going head to head and winning. No point looking at disposal stats that year with the shorter quarters

Anyway we're getting well off topic...

... thats what a run with role is (note i didnt say tag).

****ing hell this joint some times.

 

[stavro#4]

Unfortunately (or fortunately i guess) we feel a bit North like. Star forward who could win a coleman in a poor team. Talented pillars defensively (noting theyve got nothing like Wilkie) and a fleet of good kids (they have MORE talent but we have Nas).

I do think Clarko is completely ****ing checked out there, i remember our game against them last year he didnt even bother adressing the group at three quarter time and they really do seem to have accepted and gotten comfortable in their mediocrity.

At this point they look stuck being a mini development camp for good players.

Talent ID is often subjective and ebbs & Flows over seasons.

Sheezel LDU Mckercher Duursma Powell etc don’t look as elite as they maybe thought 12 months ago.

Whereas, NAS has gotten better. Tauru looks like the most exciting draftee from the 2024 crop etc.

I wouldn’t get overly caught up with comparing us. We need to ultimately do what they haven’t - which is collectively take the next step.

And I think I’m swaying towards King being indispensable to that achievement.

 

[BrutThough]

Yeh im not disputing that, im just saying i recall looking at his stats and thinking on paper it didnt look like a great year by any heights. Also made the point he was playing that run with role and beating his opponents.

Jesus youd think i just said the campaigner was a hack, its an observation mate, chill.

He didnt do run with roles in 2020. That was part of his rise. You might be observing the wrong year there.

 

[stavro#4]

 

[phantom13]

Talent ID is often subjective and ebbs & Flows over seasons.

Sheezel LDU Mckercher Duursma Powell etc don’t look as elite as they maybe thought 12 months ago.

Whereas, NAS has gotten better. Tauru looks like the most exciting draftee from the 2024 crop etc.

I wouldn’t get overly caught up with comparing us. We need to ultimately do what they haven’t - which is collectively take the next step.

And I think I’m swaying towards King being indispensable to that achievement.

Sheezel and McKercher defs still look capable of being elite IMO but i get what youre saying and agree.

He didnt do run with roles in 2020. That was part of his rise. You might be observing the wrong year there.

Lol, sure...

 

[stavro#4]

... thats what a run with role is (note i didnt say tag).

****ing hell this joint some times.

With respect.

You do it to yourself a lot of the time. Like your absolutely knit picking here

Just move on.

 

[phantom13]

With respect.

You do it to yourself a lot of the time. Like your absolutely knit picking here

Just move on.

Im being nit picked as a matter of fact but if were really trying to say Steeles form drop off DIDNT coincide with him going from doing the run with to being an attacking mid then were really just making shit up to defend him.

I actually dont think Steeles form has ever been as bad as some have made out but he absolutely played his best footy with a direct opponent he had a job on.

 

[stavro#4]

Im being nit picked as a matter of fact but if were really trying to say Steeles form drop off DIDNT coincide with him going from doing the run with to being an attacking mid then were really just making shit up to defend him.

I actually dont think Steeles form has ever been as bad as some have made out but he absolutely played his best footy with a direct opponent he had a job on.

In 2020 he went head to head as opposed to tagging/run with jobs.

Evidenced by the shit that went down when we choked against Freo that year and no one wanting to take accountability for Fyfe that day.

 

[SainterEire]

What position will Eamonn Armstrong be looking to play does anyone know?

 

[phantom13]

In 2020 he went head to head as opposed to tagging/run with jobs.

Evidenced by the shit that went down when we choked against Freo that year and no one wanting to take accountability for Fyfe that day.

NOW im nit picking. Run with isnt tagging.

Hence i used the term run with. He wasnt tagging, he never really tagged.

Were saying the exact same thing, he played with a direct opponent in a run with (not tagging) role in 2020 and 2021, his decline in form (or perceived decline) coincided with that finishing and him becoming a more attacking first player.

 

[SainterinSydney]

What position will Eamonn Armstrong be looking to play does anyone know?

I could see him as a winger or maybe forward. He is apparently 194cm now.

 

[stavro#4]

NOW im nit picking. Run with isnt tagging.

Hence i used the term run with. He wasnt tagging, he never really tagged.

Were saying the exact same thing, he played with a direct opponent in a run with (not tagging) role in 2020 and 2021, his decline in form (or perceived decline) coincided with that finishing and him becoming a more attacking first player.

If I’m going to knit pick…

I would say a run with role means defensive responsibility of that player is still yours. You can hunt when it’s time to hunt. So a 50-50 split.

Tagging you are just defending primarily.

But my belief was that Steele went head to head and tried to do his own damage to the opposition without defending being secondary. Again evidenced by the fact that in his entire career Jack only broke 10+ Goals & 10+ goal assists in the same season twice.

2020 and 2021.

 

[phantom13]

If I’m going to knit pick…

I would say a run with role means defensive responsibility of that player is still yours. You can hunt when it’s time to hunt. So a 50-50 split.

Tagging you are just defending primarily.

But my belief was that Steele went head to head and tried to do his own damage to the opposition without defending being secondary. Again evidenced by the fact that in his entire career Jack only broke 10+ Goals & 10+ goal assists in the same season twice.

2020 and 2021.

I was trying to defend him and this is what saints supporters do, turn a defence or compliment into an attack. We do the same shit with Ross.

Whatever, i think his best footy is as a run with player and his form decline (which again, i dont think has been that bad) came from transitioning into a pure attacking mid.

I also think hes looked alot better in the last 7-8 weeks? So assume hes got his body right and has his role down pat now.

 

[stavro#4]

I was trying to defend him and this is what saints supporters do, turn a defence or compliment into an attack. We do the same shit with Ross.

Whatever, i think his best footy is as a run with player and his form decline (which again, i dont think has been that bad) came from transitioning into a pure attacking mid.

I also think hes looked alot better in the last 7-8 weeks? So assume hes got his body right and has his role down pat now.

Mate you get too caught up with the minutiae, meanwhile I’m defending you over in the nas thread.

Hell must be freezing over if I’m doing that.

 

[phantom13]

Mate you get too caught up with the minutiae, meanwhile I’m defending you over in the nas thread.

Hell must be freezing over if I’m doing that.

We all do but honestly as supporters were ****ing terrible with a balanced view. Were 15th and Nas aside we have no elite kids that any other team (aside probably Richmond and thats only cause Lalor has been injured).

The whole original point was that we do lack consistent AA level talent, Steele has two AA years and has regressed, how much is debateable but that he has regressed is beyond dispute. Wilkie and Sinclair aside the original point is true and trying to defend Steele as a very good player who can be (but hasnt been) elite is taken as some ****ing horrible affront.

Its infuriating at times to try and have a discussion with people in here because of it.

That NAS thread is just a ****ing dumpster fire. Im the most cynical Saints supporter possible (saying well probably wind up with Bergman and a future first for Nas) and apparently even THAT is ridiculous...

In hindsight maybe were not the WORST with balanced views...

 

[stavro#4]

We all do but honestly as supporters were ****ing terrible with a balanced view. Were 15th and Nas aside we have no elite kids that any other team (aside probably Richmond and thats only cause Lalor has been injured).

The whole original point was that we do lack consistent AA level talent, Steele has two AA years and has regressed, how much is debateable but that he has regressed is beyond dispute. Wilkie and Sinclair aside the original point is true and trying to defend Steele as a very good player who can be (but hasnt been) elite is taken as some ****ing horrible affront.

Its infuriating at times to try and have a discussion with people in here because of it.

That NAS thread is just a ****ing dumpster fire. Im the most cynical Saints supporter possible (saying well probably wind up with Bergman and a future first for Nas) and apparently even THAT is ridiculous...

In hindsight maybe were not the WORST with balanced views...

No “Elite kids” aside from Nas.

Honestly mate, your a dad - surely you project more sunshine in your life than that type of opinion everyday

 

[Holy Hunter Clark]

We all do but honestly as supporters were ****ing terrible with a balanced view. Were 15th and Nas aside we have no elite kids that any other team (aside probably Richmond and thats only cause Lalor has been injured).

The whole original point was that we do lack consistent AA level talent, Steele has two AA years and has regressed, how much is debateable but that he has regressed is beyond dispute. Wilkie and Sinclair aside the original point is true and trying to defend Steele as a very good player who can be (but hasnt been) elite is taken as some ****ing horrible affront.

Its infuriating at times to try and have a discussion with people in here because of it.

That NAS thread is just a ****ing dumpster fire. Im the most cynical Saints supporter possible (saying well probably wind up with Bergman and a future first for Nas) and apparently even THAT is ridiculous...

In hindsight maybe were not the WORST with balanced views...

There's only 2 scenarios I'll be happy with for Nas. He stays or Butters.

I think if he does go it'll be something close to Berry + 2 future firsts though.

 

[phantom13]

No “Elite kids” aside from Nas.

Honestly mate, your a dad - surely you project more sunshine in your life than that type of opinion everyday

Which of our kids is elite?

A stack are potentially elite, only Nas currently is.

It’s a professional sporting organisation, my kids are 4 and 18 months… I’m not gonna baby the saints like I do them.

 

[phantom13]

There's only 2 scenarios I'll be happy with for Nas. He stays or Butters.

I think if he does go it'll be something close to Berry + 2 future firsts though.

Ridiculous, Berry alone, we might have to send a first with Nas most likely (said the port supporters).

You seen the soldo suggestions? Incredible stuff, should be on the bay tbh.

 

[stavro#4]

Which of our kids is elite?

A stack are potentially elite, only Nas currently is.

Your example was using the likes of Lalor and Richmond.

By the same comparison Tauru Wilson & Pou meet that criteria.