List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[gringo2011]

We have more talent in U23 players now then at any point since maybe 2003/4

We likely hit the draft again for more.

The question we need to ask and somehow answer is; how do we get them to do what that 2003/04 group did - which is explode as a collective at AFL level.

Do we liken their growth to the strength of performances to senior players as per that group - Gehrig turned into a star in that period. Harvey Hudghton Hamill Peckett Powell etc all still at high levels?

Do we put the onus on them to lift the group? That also feels very north like and they show the pitfalls of that.

If you keep cutting senior players eventually you will fall over and be a bottom 4 side until you do get a lift out of your core of kids which is probably around 5 years from drafting as a general rule.

At this point of the build we should be trying to be very tailored in who we draft and maybe even move up to find elite kids. We have heaps of bulk and as you said we have a fat enough pool now, and we should be honing and sharpening.

We really need to keep finding Max Hall type appointments who are older and ready to step in and move us forward and take heat off the kids.

I think a few gap filler recruits makes sense. We really need to be pushing finals next year and ideally looking like winning finals the year afterwards.

 

[_Maximus_12]

The entire comp will face salary cap issues in the next 3-4 years when mid tier players start wanting $1m because other clubs have the cap space to pay them that.

 

[gringo2011]

Unfortunately (or fortunately i guess) we feel a bit North like. Star forward who could win a coleman in a poor team. Talented pillars defensively (noting theyve got nothing like Wilkie) and a fleet of good kids (they have MORE talent but we have Nas).

I do think Clarko is completely ****ing checked out there, i remember our game against them last year he didnt even bother adressing the group at three quarter time and they really do seem to have accepted and gotten comfortable in their mediocrity.

At this point they look stuck being a mini development camp for good players.

Our older players run deeper and better quality. Marshall, Macrae, Sinclair, Wilkie are all top level players. Hill, Wood, Webster, Butler and Howard are all solid senior players. Our mid career guys are not very deep or good.

North have all their best players in their under 25s apart from LDU, Larkey and Xerri. When you look at their list it isn't horrible so should be performing better than they are. I think it's hard to move forward once you've bottomed out and got used to losing. I wouldn't be surprised if the do jump quickly at some point in the next 2 years though.

 

[phantom13]

stavro#4 genuine question, if we had Rowell at $2m, TDK at $1.7 (lets say its $1.5 for the sake of this discussion) and NAS at $1.5m we would have the three highest paid players in the comp in 2024 (given a number or reports have Tom Lynch at $1.45m in 2024) including one getting $500k MORE than the best paid player.

Given the top 15 had no more than 2 players at any one club (Bont and Naughton at $2.3 between them)

How EXACTLY would that not cause some issues?

Im doing simple math and sure we save some spare change with Billings. Your 5% front end load stuff is somewhat negated by the fact that we are going to have to re up a number of contracts (Windy etc) this year anyway but that math aint mathing.

Obviously it doesnt matter, we didnt get Rowell and Nas probably goes but I cant see any way a single club can have the 3 highest paid players in the league and NOT have a salary cap issue.

 

[gringo2011]

Talent ID is often subjective and ebbs & Flows over seasons.

Sheezel LDU Mckercher Duursma Powell etc don’t look as elite as they maybe thought 12 months ago.

Whereas, NAS has gotten better. Tauru looks like the most exciting draftee from the 2024 crop etc.

I wouldn’t get overly caught up with comparing us. We need to ultimately do what they haven’t - which is collectively take the next step.

And I think I’m swaying towards King being indispensable to that achievement.

Wardlaw having a hard time with injury is hurting them more. Mc Kercher is going to be a good player but he's a bit slow burn. Sheezel and Powell are going well. Sheezel isn't as high impact as Nas but he still a top level kid.

I think that also that they are more exposed than our kids who can play a bit freer due to our better older core.

 

[billings2paddy]

Our older players run deeper and better quality. Marshall, Macrae, Sinclair, Wilkie are all top level players. Hill, Wood, Webster, Butler and Howard are all solid senior players. Our mid career guys are not very deep or good.

North have all their best players in their under 25s apart from LDU, Larkey and Xerri. When you look at their list it isn't horrible so should be performing better than they are. I think it's hard to move forward once you've bottomed out and got used to losing. I wouldn't be surprised if the do jump quickly at some point in the next 2 years though.

only a matter of time agree

 

[_Maximus_12]

Our older players run deeper and better quality. Marshall, Macrae, Sinclair, Wilkie are all top level players. Hill, Wood, Webster, Butler and Howard are all solid senior players. Our mid career guys are not very deep or good.

North have all their best players in their under 25s apart from LDU, Larkey and Xerri. When you look at their list it isn't horrible so should be performing better than they are. I think it's hard to move forward once you've bottomed out and got used to losing. I wouldn't be surprised if the do jump quickly at some point in the next 2 years though.

Yeah I don’t think we’re anywhere north levels. Reason being we’ve invested in key position players early in the rebuild.

North need to draft talls, they’ll take 6-8 years before they’re at a level to compete. By then, many of the mids they have will be over the hill or late in their career. Their in a constant rebuild.

 

[SainterinSydney]

Yeah I don’t think we’re anywhere north levels. Reason being we’ve invested in key position players early in the rebuild.

North need to draft talls, they’ll take 6-8 years before they’re at a level to compete. By then, many of the mids they have will be over the hill or late in their career. Their in a constant rebuild.

I always say you need to build your spine first and then go from there.

 

[phantom13]

Yeah I don’t think we’re anywhere north levels. Reason being we’ve invested in key position players early in the rebuild.

North need to draft talls, they’ll take 6-8 years before they’re at a level to compete. By then, many of the mids they have will be over the hill or late in their career. Their in a constant rebuild.

I think this is a little overblown.

Larkey is a coleman medallist in almost any other team and Combden looks like being a gun key back.

Logue, Pink and Corr are all solid if unspectacular (and before anyone rags on Corr he gave King a bath last year so lets not shit can him too much).

Probably lacking a true CHF but id argue so are we.

 

[gringo2011]

We would be bonkers to not sign him for a long term deal. Guy will be in our top 5 players for years to come, I think.

He's our best player at the moment. Probably 5 weeks of close to elite performance in one of the hardest roles to play in footy. We draft like a drunk selecting a tattoo in Kings Cross but mid season and rookie drafts the Saints stand up.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Naz would be better of trying to get to the crows.
What realistic trade do you think we would get given both clubs have got **** all currency.
Our best strategy now if we know he’s not staying would be to get them in a bidding war against each other.
Put the onus on them to find the currency.

 

[Yawkey way]

If you keep cutting senior players eventually you will fall over and be a bottom 4 side until you do get a lift out of your core of kids which is probably around 5 years from drafting as a general rule.

At this point of the build we should be trying to be very tailored in who we draft and maybe even move up to find elite kids. We have heaps of bulk and as you said we have a fat enough pool now, and we should be honing and sharpening.

We really need to keep finding Max Hall type appointments who are older and ready to step in and move us forward and take heat off the kids.

I think a few gap filler recruits makes sense. We really need to be pushing finals next year and ideally looking like winning finals the year afterwards.

We’re at the point now that if we keep up the same churn rate you’re trashing careers before they’ve even begun.

You’re right move up to target the guys you really want and bring in a few who can do a job for you that won’t cost much.

We can’t afford to clear out too many and become North, that’s an absolute horror show.

King is the guy we desperately need on the field next year.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Genuine question. When was the last time an out of contract big name went this deep into a season without re-committing? Didn’t Dustin Martin re-sign at the arse end of 2016 around September?

The longer it takes, the longer I have my doubts, along with Windy. But what do I know?

De Goey?

 

[gringo2011]

If Nas does end up signing with us there’s going to be some really disappointed doomsayers in here

No real St Kilda fan could be happy losing Nas. They are just discussing what kind of blunt force trauma is the least painful.

 

[BrutThough]

Genuine question. When was the last time an out of contract big name went this deep into a season without re-committing? Didn’t Dustin Martin re-sign at the arse end of 2016 around September?

The longer it takes, the longer I have my doubts, along with Windy. But what do I know?

Likely Bont

 

[St Neil]

If Port and Adelaide are paying 2mill a year the trade will have to be in relevant value to that money.
FWIW both don't have the capital to make it happen and NAS seems happy at the saints.

Both clubs DO have the capital to do a trade if they are the nominated club.

But this capital isn’t draft picks. It’s players.

It would cost them considerable talent and would also be a difficult trade for them.

 

[St Neil]

Likely Bont

Something strange is happening with that one.

Very surprising he hasn’t re-signed yet. Bulldogs don’t seem confident a resolution is imminent.

 

[SainterinSydney]

Something strange is happening with that one.

Very surprising he hasn’t re-signed yet. Bulldogs don’t seem confident a resolution is imminent.

Do we bring him home?

 

[Linton Street Saint]

Both clubs DO have the capital to do a trade if they are the nominated club.

But this capital isn’t draft picks. It’s players.

It would cost them considerable talent and would also be a difficult trade for them.

While I agree on the broad premise, it's not exactly that simple. Even if Port caved, if a player is contracted they can't be forced into a trade against their will.

 

[phantom13]

Both clubs DO have the capital to do a trade if they are the nominated club.

But this capital isn’t draft picks. It’s players.

It would cost them considerable talent and would also be a difficult trade for them.

I cant speak for the crows but the port supporters have essentially said hands off any player even remotely valuable from Vic in that Nas thread.

The overwhelming sentiment from saints fans is they dont have the draft capital alone (thats both)

 

[stavro#4]

stavro#4 genuine question, if we had Rowell at $2m, TDK at $1.7 (lets say its $1.5 for the sake of this discussion) and NAS at $1.5m we would have the three highest paid players in the comp in 2024 (given a number or reports have Tom Lynch at $1.45m in 2024) including one getting $500k MORE than the best paid player.

Given the top 15 had no more than 2 players at any one club (Bont and Naughton at $2.3 between them)

How EXACTLY would that not cause some issues?

Im doing simple math and sure we save some spare change with Billings. Your 5% front end load stuff is somewhat negated by the fact that we are going to have to re up a number of contracts (Windy etc) this year anyway but that math aint mathing.

Obviously it doesnt matter, we didnt get Rowell and Nas probably goes but I cant see any way a single club can have the 3 highest paid players in the league and NOT have a salary cap issue.

Because all of these contracts you read about would have substantial incentives to earn those figures. You would have the likes of Steele or Marshall moved on. Cordy and maybe Howard gone etc.

Which is entirely why it’s not worth worrying about.

If we play along with your hypothetical - what do you reckon happens if Nas/TDK/Rowell + King/Windy/Hall etc are all earning their maximum $$$ ?

I can tell you what it means.


One of these

 

[St Neil]

Do we bring him home?

Goodness me.

Is the Bont an UFA?

 

[St Neil]

While I agree on the broad premise, it's not exactly that simple. Even if Port caved, if a player is contracted they can't be forced into a trade against their will.

Correct. 100%.

But how else do they get the capital to do a trade?

Players could be traded to other clubs and then those draft picks are transferred to Saints. That is also another option.

But clubs that don’t have the necessary draft picks are limited in their options.

 

[phantom13]

Because all of these contracts you read about would have substantial incentives to earn those figures. You would have the likes of Steele or Marshall moved on. Cordy and maybe Howard gone etc.

Which is entirely why it’s not worth worrying about.

If we play along with your hypothetical - what do you reckon happens if Nas/TDK/Rowell + King/Windy/Hall etc are all earning their maximum $$$ ?

I can tell you what it means.


One of these

I think the issue is if theyre all earning their incentives we literally cant field a team.

NAS, Rowell and TDK @ $5.2m. Then lets go average of about $800k for our next 8 players (assuming thats Roma, King, Wilkie, Sincs, Steele, Higgins, Macrae and Hill) thats $11.3m on 11 players.

We have $4m to pay 35 other players (which averages $114k).

Were basically Carlton only our mid tier is actually Div 2 EFL guys our bottom tier is ****ing Div 4 ressies.

The math doesnt work Stav. There is no feasible way we could have actually gotten those three contract over the line, incentivised or not.

Its actually not worth worrying about cause it didnt happen (i again maintain the Rowell thing never actually got any traction) but my worry now is your basic maths ability.

You reckon you can have the 3 highest paid players in the league in one team? Even if 20% of it is incentivised.

 

[stavro#4]

I think the issue is if theyre all earning their incentives we literally cant field a team.

NAS, Rowell and TDK @ $5.2m. Then lets go average of about $800k for our next 8 players (assuming thats Roma, King, Wilkie, Sincs, Steele, Higgins, Macrae and Hill) thats $11.3m.

We have $4m to pay 35 other players (which averages $114k).

Were basically Carlton only our mid tier is actually Div 2 EFL guys.

The math doesnt work Stav. There is no feasible way we could have actually gotten those three contract over the line, incentivised or not.

It means for our cap to be sitting at 85% today that our bottom end of the list is earning sfa and are contracted.

It means by 2027 there is an absolute fortune coming off the books aswell.