List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[saint_]

I genuinely think NWM's manager is looking to see if the Adelaide clubs can find the assets from now till the trade period, otherwise if they can't he'll probably settle on a two year deal.

 

[beside the seaside]

Seems like you do care lol with the personal insults

Name one great sporting organisation or business that don’t have their own house in order

NGA Players Windy Owens and Fincher this year
Windy and Owens 200 game players and many see Windy as a Captain

Are the Father son rules different for our club ?
We won’t be complaining if the 3 Rewoldt boys Lenny and Dals boys are running around for us

This is Basset’s third reset we have been so poorly run for 15 plus years
The club decisions and management over the last 15 years have done more harm than anything the AFL have done

The Suns are going to have multiple top ten picks this year, the Lions another top ten. Surely you can see the difference between that and Owens and Windy who were picked in the 20s and 40s and Fincher, who knows where he goes but nowhere near the top ten.

Chris Scott was bagging out father sons the other day it's not only us questioning the system.

 

[beside the seaside]

I genuinely think NWM's manager is looking to see if the Adelaide clubs can find the assets from now till the trade period, otherwise if they can't he'll probably settle on a two year deal.

Certainly hasn't done him any harm in waiting. He's gone from very good half back, to elite half back, to elite mid/utility who can play anywhere on the ground and basically upped his vake by half a million a year. Played it beautifully.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Seems like you do care lol with the personal insults

Name one great sporting organisation or business that don’t have their own house in order

NGA Players Windy Owens and Fincher this year
Windy and Owens 200 game players and many see Windy as a Captain

Are the Father son rules different for our club ?
We won’t be complaining if the 3 Rewoldt boys Lenny and Dals boys are running around for us

This is Basset’s third reset we have been so poorly run for 15 plus years
The club decisions and management over the last 15 years have done more harm than anything the AFL have done

3rd reset?

 

[Mowman]

Do you like what we are doing now ?

Or want the president and coach gone ?

Yes plan is right now just 5 years late

President has to be on his last chance

More than happy with RTB

 

[botts]

Certainly hasn't done him any harm in waiting. He's gone from very good half back, to elite half back, to elite mid/utility who can play anywhere on the ground and basically upped his vake by half a million a year. Played it beautifully.

The better he player the harder it will be to get a trade done. If he finished the year as a top 2 mid in the comp neither SA clubs would have the assets to get it done. Issac got pick for to the Gold Coast and he had done absolutely nothing

 

[Yawkey way]

I'm putting the boot in because im sick to death of being shithouse in a competition where if you select a good player with a top 10 draft pick especially multiple ones you eventually tend to play finals consistantly. We however seem to stuff this up consistently over a large period of time and a fair junk of our supporters accept this or make excuses or defend the club.

We gave won 1 in 11 or so odd games and in those it included losses to rabbles of a team in West Coast and Carlton. Ross has been fantastic at escaping media criticism about our performance by bringing up and talking about excuses to shy away from the fact how terrible we have been.

I don't remember him mentioning all these issues in season 1 when making finals, and heck even last year he wasn't bringing up these issues as we went on a solid run towards the end of the year.

This year look at his first 5 or 6 weeks when we had some form, dont think he gave to much of a trap about it and the only person that said something was our president which is fair enough.

We fall off an absolute cliff and he is sprouting it week in week out taking the spotlight away from what is actually happening with our performance. I actually agree with him that it needs to change to make it more fair, but saying it week in week out is just ridiculous.

Ross is lucky he has friends in the media as imo we have not been anywhere near the spotlight as we should have been given our performances over the last 3 months.

You can say what you want, but let me put it into clear perspective for everyone, we are on the same amount of points as Richmond. Essendon who are using my grandmother to fill in due to the amount of injuries they have are 4 points ahead and 1 game as well. North Melbourne who we all laugh at are only 2 points behind us and let's not forget we also lost to West Coast who won like 10 games on 60 or 70 odd.

2 questionable calls from our president (I have big ? About him more than anyone esle associated with the saints) have happened at the start of the year that to me anyway are massive ??

1. Signing Max King to the longest deal in our history with all his injuries was a massive risk we didnt need to do.

2. Signing up Ross for an extra 2 years again didnt need to happen, No one was poaching him and pulling the trigger after playing a few decent games to start the season is imo the incorrect move.

But anyway let's all sing and dance how great we are and how we need another rebuild due to everyone esle faults. How many is that now since 2010? 4 or 7? Us supporters could have built the trade towers with our bare hands by now.

I appreciate your passion and frustration and if I lived interstate I’d go to games and probably have a soft spot for the teams I watched.

The points you’ve raised have been discussed on here ad nauseam so I won’t be replying in any great detail.

As briefly as I can, Ross Lyon coached the first year largely with what we had, it wasn’t his team. I think it was described as a year of discovery. He was fully supported in his assessment that the team despite making finals wasn’t taking us anywhere.

Since then we have had a massive turnover and have invested heavily in the draft. We’ve gone from an old team to one of the youngest. We have a future that looks brighter by the day, it’s anything but doom and gloom.

Our President on behalf of the members is rightly highlighting the inequities in the system that see us cast as minor players making up the numbers. All he’s asking for is a level playing field, draw, fixture, draft. I support his efforts whole heartedly and have been complaining about the system for years.

Individual contracts are up to the club and list manager, we have no idea what’s true and what’s not. King for example before this season would have been high on every clubs wish list so we moved to lock him up long term. Again we don’t know but it’s widely believed to contain several performance based options on both sides.

Ross Lyons contract given we’re in a rebuild is fair and reasonable and provides us with the stability and certainty you need to recruit. Wasn’t it you who mentioned that Hinkley leaving is supposedly a spanner in the works for ports recruitment of Nas ?.

Anyway I hope we retain Nas but the club will move forward with or without him. Why anyone would head to port who look like a rabble is beyond me but it’s supposedly all about home and I can respect that.

There’s a lot of ifs but I can see a bright future for us if a few things break our way. Also we’re going to come home with several very winnable games, don’t be surprised if we win 8 or 9 for the year. Melbourne, Richmond, North and Essendon are all very winnable games and we haven’t been a team that tanks.

Lastly we’re trying to put together a team that can compete to win flags not just scrape into the occasional final in what is a very tough environment. I support the club 100% in that approach, I personally couldn’t care less if we win 5 or 9 this year.

 

[jwikked]

3rd reset?

Cho, Ratten, Lyon

 

[jwikked]

2 questionable calls from our president (I have big ? About him more than anyone esle associated with the saints) have happened at the start of the year that to me anyway are massive ??

1. Signing Max King to the longest deal in our history with all his injuries was a massive risk we didnt need to do.

2. Signing up Ross for an extra 2 years again didnt need to happen, No one was poaching him and pulling the trigger after playing a few decent games to start the season is imo the incorrect move.

Agree with your first two points, but the part about the contract extension isn’t as bad. We’ve heard of players re-signing with the club to match the tenure Ross has been given. For the young players, I think having certainty around the coach is a positive thing, and while no one was going to poach him, getting an extension done is hardly breaking the bank.

Ultimately if we have to sack him, the contract doesn’t matter

 

[kernelT]

Taking the "excuses" approach:

Cats cheat.

Hawks team was built on the old priority pick system the fell apart. Haven't done anything since.

Dogs have father sons. Won their only flag on the back of the most insane month of footy ever plus Tom Boyd going nuclear for 2 games.

Pies have father sons AND 1st round NGA. They don't win without Moore, IQ and the Daicos boys.

Dees were literally hand picked by the AFL. They were given every possible off field advantage to help set them up. They also have the GOAT ruck.

Tigers had to dump a former #1 draft pick and club champion PLUS a handful of picks, to roll the dice on Nank, Prestia & Caddy, AND play a style of footy that lead to rules changes AND draft the greatest finals player of all time and they still went into 2/3 grand finals as underdogs.

So yeah, all we need is a couple of free first rounders, a game changing style of play, an incredible run of form and to find a player that is in the GOAT discussion for their position.

Or we find a way to cheat like the Cats do.

hahaha

with 4 of those clubs being the biggest clubs in Vic if not the comp

Go look at the Pies drafting, it's pretty woeful, but offset by F/S, but more importantly, their ability to trade for bigger name players.
Geelong is much the same, along with the Hawks, who attract FA and trades at want
The Dogs who have lucked into a rich vein of FS and NGA, we forget they gave up 3 1st round picks for Sanders just 2 years ago

Tigers are 2nd last. not sure they have managed to rebuild anything, but they had no issues getting FA and trades done

FA, F/S is something we've had a distinct disadvantage in obtaining; our biggest trade had been Hill and we overpaid both $$ and pick cost to do that

What’s your point ?
So what
Pies, Dogs, Cats all kissed on dick with plenty of “draft assistance “ by way of FS/academy help ???
Dees rebuild was sponsored by AFL after multiple years of being shit
Hawks haven’t played finals in 6-7 years ??

Look I love a good old fashioned sook as much as the next toddler, but I was replying to Teflon's suggestion that our abominable past 15 years has nothing to do with our own incompetence… which is cult-level stupidity.

Great post
It’s fck all to do with our draft stuff ups
More to do with how many “free swings” clubs get at it due to system that’s flawed

I'll give you the tip: We royally ****ed recruitment for 18 years straight - that's why we have been floundering for the past 15 years.

Here's a quick recap:

High picks flushed
2003
Pick 8 - Raph Clark
2004
Pick 17 - Andrew McQualter
Pick 33 - Cain Ackland
2006
Pick 27 - Brad Howard
2007
Pick 9 - Ben McEvoy
2008
Pick 13 - Tom Lynch
2009
Pick 32 - Nicholas Winmar
2010
Pick 24 - Jamie Cripps

Then we went for the weight of numbers approach:
2011
Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever, Maister, Dunnell, Shenton, Stayley, Minchington
2012
Tom Lee, Saad, Milera, Wright, White, Murdoch, Saunders, Pierce
2013
Hickey, Longer, Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Delaney, Savage, Curren, Templeton, Weller, Holmes
2014
McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie, Lonie, Saad, Payne
2015
Carlisle, Gresham, White, Rice, O’Kearney, Coughlan,
2016
Long, Battle, Phillips
2017
Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, Langlands, Pierce, Brown,
2018
King, Bytel, Parker, Hind, Young
2019
Hill, Howard, Ryder, Mayo, Byrnes, Connolly, Bell
2020
Allison, Highmore, Higgins, Crouch, McKernan

Ross, Webster, Steele & Higgins have been good pick-ups to varying degrees, then some success on smokies from the rookie draft: Sinclair, Marshall & Wilkie

On the rare occasions we did select a decent player, we punted them for more scratchies - Stanley, McEvoy, Lynch, Gresham, Acres, Long, Battle

We've used valuable draft capital and/or cap space on: Watts, Lovett, Longer, Lee, Freeman, Hickey, Carlisle, Stevens, Hannebery, Hill, Howard, Jones, Dow, Henry,

Things look better from 2021 but we are still shit because we have SFA to show from the 18 years preceding it, which means our 23 - 35 core is threadbare. This is why we have been shit for so long.

I can count 15 clubs that have either won a flag or have been in a position to challenge for one over the past 10 years, leaving only Essendon, North & us.

Alternatively: It's all Gold Coast's fault.

 

[saintbill]

Agree with your first two points, but the part about the contract extension isn’t as bad. We’ve heard of players re-signing with the club to match the tenure Ross has been given. For the young players, I think having certainty around the coach is a positive thing, and while no one was going to poach him, getting an extension done is hardly breaking the bank.

Ultimately if we have to sack him, the contract doesn’t matter

That's a fair call. I have concerns Ross is not the right guy for modern footy, but when you hear stories of Pou wanting certainty that Ross will be there, I can understand the logic.

 

[Diehard Saint]

They do and they don't. We have benefited from NGA in Owens and Windhager and also look like benefiting from Fincher this coming draft as he looks a talent. Yes father sons we haven't, but if we done our part and drafted accordingly, we wouldn't be crying about it every single week. I think everyone agrees that the system is broken in some way shape or form, however mentioning it in every press conference pre or post game is just getting tiresome. For a coach who loves to trot out the line of we focus on what we can control, he sure as hell loves to focus on everything thats out of his control.

Our decline in structure and kicking skills are imo more of a priority that he should be worried about, as he will soon find himself out of a job.

Any body could have picked Windy and Owens before we did.
Will be the same with Fincher if it happens.
It’s never a guarantee.

It’s not the same with the northern academies as I’m sure you know.

And no, it’s not tiresome. Some of it is starting to get fixed. Other clubs are starting to come on board. You have to make change happen - or else it doesn’t. Thank heavens Bassett and Ross stood up - and copped the flak for their efforts.

And as people keep telling you, it’s not mutually exclusive. Of course we can improve with skills, development etc. But let’s not have to try and rebuild with one hand tied behind our backs.

 

[saintbill]

For all the talk of young blokes wanting to play in front of big crowds at the G, surely there are blokes out there that love the idea of playing at Marvel under the roof most weeks.

Has been raining all weekend across the country. Wet weather footy sucks. Does a rolls royce like NAS want to put up with rain when he could be getting the most out of his skillset indoors?

 

[Diehard Saint]

I dont understand why this is so hard for people to understand.

Two things can be true. We have made poor decisions as a club that have largely contributes to where as are. But.... other clubs have made similar poor decisions but been able to avoid the bottom due to the advantages they receive in the current draft/trade system. Sydney and Collingwood are two prime examples of this. The system gives them room to make poor decisions compared to us, who need to make every decision a good one to move forward.

Making mistakes also doesnt prevent us from advocating for change to the system to make it a more equal playing field for every club. We have as much right as any other club to air our grievances with the draft and state any changes we think could benefit the competition as a whole. This notion that we have to wait until a certain level of success before fighting for equality is what will keep us down and small.

100%

 

[sainter7]

Look I love a good old fashioned sook as much as the next toddler, but I was replying to Teflon's suggestion that our abominable past 15 years has nothing to do with our own incompetence… which is cult-level stupidity.

I'll give you the tip: We royally ****ed recruitment for 18 years straight - that's why we have been floundering for the past 15 years.

Here's a quick recap:

High picks flushed
2003
Pick 8 - Raph Clark
2004
Pick 17 - Andrew McQualter
Pick 33 - Cain Ackland
2006
Pick 27 - Brad Howard
2007
Pick 9 - Ben McEvoy
2008
Pick 13 - Tom Lynch
2009
Pick 32 - Nicholas Winmar
2010
Pick 24 - Jamie Cripps

Then we went for the weight of numbers approach:
2011
Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever, Maister, Dunnell, Shenton, Stayley, Minchington
2012
Tom Lee, Saad, Milera, Wright, White, Murdoch, Saunders, Pierce
2013
Hickey, Longer, Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Delaney, Savage, Curren, Templeton, Weller, Holmes
2014
McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie, Lonie, Saad, Payne
2015
Carlisle, Gresham, White, Rice, O’Kearney, Coughlan,
2016
Long, Battle, Phillips
2017
Clark, Coffield, Clavarino, Paton, Langlands, Pierce, Brown,
2018
King, Bytel, Parker, Hind, Young
2019
Hill, Howard, Ryder, Mayo, Byrnes, Connolly, Bell
2020
Allison, Highmore, Higgins, Crouch, McKernan

Ross, Webster, Steele & Higgins have been good pick-ups to varying degrees, then some success on smokies from the rookie draft: Sinclair, Marshall & Wilkie

On the rare occasions we did select a decent player, we punted them for more scratchies - Stanley, McEvoy, Lynch, Gresham, Acres, Long, Battle

We've used valuable draft capital and/or cap space on: Watts, Lovett, Longer, Lee, Freeman, Hickey, Carlisle, Stevens, Hannebery, Hill, Howard, Jones, Dow, Henry,

Things look better from 2021 but we are still shit because we have SFA to show from the 18 years preceding it, which means our 23 - 35 core is threadbare. This is why we have been shit for so long.

I can count 15 clubs that have either won a flag or have been in a position to challenge for one over the past 10 years, leaving only Essendon, North & us.

Alternatively: It's all Gold Coast's fault.

We have royally screwed up picks and or development. What the complaints are about the past 5 years and next 15 years going forward. How are we supposed to compete with gold Coast when they finish above us but get 8 first rounders in 2023-2025 and we get 3. The better teams shouldn't get more draft capital but that's what's happening. Our past is entirely our fault, a woeful 2010s era. But our complaints are for the next 15 years which are already made tough because those players are at gold coast, Brisbane, etc. the afl can't just make them leave once they're winning too many flags constantly

 

[kernelT]

We have royally screwed up picks and or development. What the complaints are about the past 5 years and next 15 years going forward. How are we supposed to compete with gold Coast when they finish above us but get 8 first rounders in 2023-2025 and we get 3. The better teams shouldn't get more draft capital but that's what's happening. Our past is entirely our fault, a woeful 2010s era. But our complaints are for the next 15 years which are already made tough because those players are at gold coast, Brisbane, etc. the afl can't just make them leave once they're winning too many flags constantly

The system absolutely needs an overall, no argument from me there.

But within the current system we have actually managed to recruit some high quality talent, if they had a better senior core from the previous 10 years to play with then we wouldn't be so fixated on persecution.

 

[sainter7]

The system absolutely needs an overall, no argument from me there.

But within the current system we have actually managed to recruit some high quality talent, if they had a better senior core from the previous 10 years to play with then we wouldn't be so fixated on persecution.

Yes I agree. But one hand is being tied behind our back. And it's mainly the last 3 years that the system has been way worse. We could finish 6th bottom this year and get the 11th or 12th pick. We rely on being perfect when some other clubs have some leeway. We all just want a fair comp where the best list builds are rewarded. And no doubt that would not be us. But the next 15 years looks grim because of a flawed system rn. Yes we could push up into finals. But passing gold coast and Brisbane when they'll get the 2nd and 3rd picks this year after both likely making top 4... Shouldn't premierships be the aim? Not an honourable finals campaign.

I think we are in agreement tho, just semantics hahaha

 

[DarkSaint]

I think everyone agrees about the system and how its broken from various angle. I'm fine with the President talking about it and advocating change and the coach backing him up. However what my issue is Ross constantly talking about it in every single press conference post match, pre match and during the week for 12 weeks straight.

The AFL has said they will look into it at seasons end so let it go. If he spent the same amount of energy highlighting how umpires have bent us over on a regular basis and the way Owens gets manhandled every game without a free kick in sight, Id bloody chip in and help with his fine.

 

[BrutThough]

I think everyone agrees about the system and how its broken from various angle. I'm fine with the President talking about it and advocating change and the coach backing him up. However what my issue is Ross constantly talking about it in every single press conference post match, pre match and dating the week for 12 weeks straight.

The AFL has said they will look into it at seasons end so let it go. If he spent the same amount of energy highlighting how umpires have bent us over on a regular basis and the way Owens gets manhandled every game without a free kick in sight, Id bloody chip in and help with his fine.

Except he hasn't done that.

It's been in the news cycle again this week due to multiple outlets releasing draft rankings, Jon Ralph writing an article about it earlier in the week and Chris Scott mentioning it on AFL360. Is he not allowed to mention topics that impact us when they are featuring in the news cycle?

 

[sainter7]

I think everyone agrees about the system and how its broken from various angle. I'm fine with the President talking about it and advocating change and the coach backing him up. However what my issue is Ross constantly talking about it in every single press conference post match, pre match and dating the week for 12 weeks straight.

The AFL has said they will look into it at seasons end so let it go. If he spent the same amount of energy highlighting how umpires have bent us over on a regular basis and the way Owens gets manhandled every game without a free kick in sight, Id bloody chip in and help with his fine.

I think the system will change once people see gold coast getting 3-4 first rounders after a potential deep finals run. But once again, the afl being REACTIVE not PROACTIVE. The afl have been a reactive league forever and won't change rules until a rule topples over, instead of foreseeing that it's quite obvious itll happen.

 

[kernelT]

Throw Naughton, Bailey Smith

3

Bailey Smith

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

& Serong into our side instead of Coffield, King & Hill and we would be winning most games.

 

[Minga]

Throw Naughton, Bailey Smith & Serong into our side instead of Coffield, King & Hill and we would be winning most games.

Can’t imagine Bailey sniff being at the saints if he didn’t even last at the dogs.

Naughton would be nice, must be said tho he is getting league best service from the bulldogs range of elite ball users and less attention due to Darcy & co

Serong is a great what if… that 2019 trade period tho I maintain was an ultimate good, perhaps in an alternative world where we draft serong and still bring in the other players aside from hill but idk.

I think we’d be in the finals mix with a fit King, Phillipou, Howard.

Anyway, shame about coffield. Hill and Clark have been good, still have stuff to offer, especially Clark, I’m holding faith.

More importantly though, we are well and truly building around a younger group now, 2021 draftees onwards (plus King).

 

[botts]

Can’t imagine Bailey sniff being at the saints if he didn’t even last at the dogs.

Naughton would be nice, must be said tho he is getting league best service from the bulldogs range of elite ball users and less attention due to Darcy & co

Serong is a great what if… that 2019 trade period tho I maintain was an ultimate good, perhaps in an alternative world where we draft serong and still bring in the other players aside from hill but idk.

I think we’d be in the finals mix with a fit King, Phillipou, Howard.

Anyway, shame about coffield. Hill and Clark have been good, still have stuff to offer, especially Clark, I’m holding faith.

More importantly though, we are well and truly building around a younger group now, 2021 draftees onwards (plus King).

Who cares about all those misses. We have nas…… I think

 

[gubby88]

Repeat it as many times as you like doesn’t make it right

Club is where it is because of its bad management and will never get anywhere until we get it right, weak to blame everything else

like you blaming SOS for absolutely everything that apparently has happened in the last decade?

 

[gubby88]

Seems like you do care lol with the personal insults

Name one great sporting organisation or business that don’t have their own house in order

NGA Players Windy Owens and Fincher this year
Windy and Owens 200 game players and many see Windy as a Captain

Are the Father son rules different for our club ?
We won’t be complaining if the 3 Rewoldt boys Lenny and Dals boys are running around for us

This is Basset’s third reset we have been so poorly run for 15 plus years
The club decisions and management over the last 15 years have done more harm than anything the AFL have done

so what you're saying, is that it's Bassett's fault last time Lyon left and the club blew up the list just as the expansion clubs came in???