Autopsy Autopsy vs St Kilda

[aussierulesrules]

Hey folks, come in peace.

Reckon a lot of you are being pretty harsh on your team’s disposal and turnovers, from what I’ve read so far.

For starters, you went at 80% disposal efficiency for the game. Only Gold Coast in their demolition of Richmond did better, going at 82%.

Only two other teams for the round went at more than 75%.

And you were taking the game on a lot, so it’s not as if it was a high DE due to being really conservative.

Secondly, you only had 55 turnovers, which was likewise the 2nd-best for the round. Only WB in their 88 point win had less.

Just to put things into some perspective.

 

[Disco Dew]

Hey folks, come in peace.

Reckon a lot of you are being pretty harsh on your team’s disposal and turnovers, from what I’ve read so far.

For starters, you went at 80% disposal efficiency for the game. Only Gold Coast in their demolition of Richmond did better, going at 82%.

Only two other teams for the round went at more than 75%.

And you were taking the game on a lot, so it’s not as if it was a high DE due to being really conservative.

Secondly, you only had 55 turnovers, which was likewise the 2nd-best for the round. Only WB in their 88 point win had less.

Just to put things into some perspective.

Now do scores against from turnovers.

 

[Horace]

I like your optimism Horace but sadly, hopes and dreams don't win games of footy.

I'm worried for the club and its future, especially if the next couple of Clarko years are dismal.

I would love Harry and George to lead us out of the darkness, but they have equal chance of being beaten to death mentally if the rot continues...

We shall see.

 

[zoomba23]

This! You’re spot on. I’ve been yelling this out at the footy for years now - shepherd him!! This is just basic team stuff - the effort should always be there even if the skills aren’t - never gonna be a good team if you can’t play for each other and shepherd, tackle, smother, chase. Great smother by Parker on the boundary line yesterday too, that got me out of my seat!

I was yelling it yesterday more than I usually do. So many ****ing instances where a shepherd would've afforded us space, but our ball hungry/dumb campaigners just stand there or call for a 1-2.

There'd be well drilled U16s grassroots teams who do it infinitely better than we do

 

[BrownPaperBag]

Hey folks, come in peace.

Reckon a lot of you are being pretty harsh on your team’s disposal and turnovers, from what I’ve read so far.

For starters, you went at 80% disposal efficiency for the game. Only Gold Coast in their demolition of Richmond did better, going at 82%.

Only two other teams for the round went at more than 75%.

And you were taking the game on a lot, so it’s not as if it was a high DE due to being really conservative.

Secondly, you only had 55 turnovers, which was likewise the 2nd-best for the round. Only WB in their 88 point win had less.

Just to put things into some perspective.

Watch the same shit week on week and you’d be critical too

 

[zoomba23]

Hey folks, come in peace.

Reckon a lot of you are being pretty harsh on your team’s disposal and turnovers, from what I’ve read so far.

For starters, you went at 80% disposal efficiency for the game. Only Gold Coast in their demolition of Richmond did better, going at 82%.

Only two other teams for the round went at more than 75%.

And you were taking the game on a lot, so it’s not as if it was a high DE due to being really conservative.

Secondly, you only had 55 turnovers, which was likewise the 2nd-best for the round. Only WB in their 88 point win had less.

Just to put things into some perspective.

With our indirect approach, that's what's gonna happen.

Reckon we were up 30 for disposals and down 16 for inside 50s. Similar discrepancy for contested possessions.

Outdated game plan. Makes things look less flawed than they are

 

[Horace]

Hey folks, come in peace.

Reckon a lot of you are being pretty harsh on your team’s disposal and turnovers, from what I’ve read so far.

For starters, you went at 80% disposal efficiency for the game. Only Gold Coast in their demolition of Richmond did better, going at 82%.

Only two other teams for the round went at more than 75%.

And you were taking the game on a lot, so it’s not as if it was a high DE due to being really conservative.

Secondly, you only had 55 turnovers, which was likewise the 2nd-best for the round. Only WB in their 88 point win had less.

Just to put things into some perspective.

Yes, I tend to agree. I was at the Pies v Lions game, which was a ripper of a game, obviously played at a higher intensity than yesterday, which would contribute to disposal efficiency and turnovers. As a neutral, I saw some pretty average disposal/turnovers. I think we are all, especially when we lose, harder on our own players.

Can tell you also that the umpiring that I saw then and at other games at the MCG I've been to this year, has geberally been pretty s*, but strangely nowhere near as s* as the North games I have watched. I wonder why?

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Hey folks, come in peace.

Reckon a lot of you are being pretty harsh on your team’s disposal and turnovers, from what I’ve read so far.

For starters, you went at 80% disposal efficiency for the game. Only Gold Coast in their demolition of Richmond did better, going at 82%.

Only two other teams for the round went at more than 75%.

And you were taking the game on a lot, so it’s not as if it was a high DE due to being really conservative.

Secondly, you only had 55 turnovers, which was likewise the 2nd-best for the round. Only WB in their 88 point win had less.

Just to put things into some perspective.

It’s not the pure numbers.

It’s the type of turnovers.

They’re simple, unacceptable disposal errors that cost shots at goal or enable a shot for the opponent.

They’re often under no pressure.

Self inflicted garbage.

 

[tazaa]

The coaching staff are not playing games of footy to win them. Winning is a by product of having everything go right. to some plan that I am pretty certain the players are not completely clear on and have very little faith in.

We could have won that game yesterday. We could have won it with basically the same team (I'd make 2 changes) but structuring up a bit differently.

Let's make a comparison shall we. Harry Sheezel yesterday started the game well, and the response from the opposition coach was to send Garcia to him. To impede his ability to play the way he was.

On the flipslip the had NWM who last week showed he has the talent and ability to basically win the game off his own boot. Our approach for that guy was to allow him to accumulate the ball 33 times in the first 3 quarters before sending someone to him to negate what he was doing. What happened when FOS went to him? he disappeared.

This may seem all a bit academic from the coaches box and there being a right and a wrong way to win. Where we are and for how long we have been here? Most supporters would walk over broken glass to win the wrong way consistently. I don't care how I care how often and it is consistently never enough.

I have more faith in our players talent and ability than they have in their talent and ability. I am sure some people on here will read that and be thinking, but you said we would lose this game. I did but we did not lose it through a lack of talent.

We had more than enough talent on the field yesterday to be able to win that game, probably comfortably to be honest. However we have next to zero cohesion in what we are doing. Admittedly yesterday was not as fragmented as we have seen but it was incohesive nonetheless.

Before the game it was clear that the Saints would come in with their cups full of the belief that they could win from basically anywhere. That is the antithesis of where we are. We play like we believe that we can lose a game from anywhere. We play like this because we have scars of losing games from anywhere.

The cowboy or the cattle debate is wrong. IMO it is both and neither. It is fear and lack of trust that permeates its way through the entire program. We take talented kids and grind at them until they're a shadow of what they were as teens and so far removed from what they could have become it is not funny.

However tazaa you're absolutely right, I cannot wait for this season to end. To put another full stop on a season where our underperformance has yet again been woeful. Yesterday was the last AFL game I will attend this year. The only one we look like winning we sold interstate, and when the last round rolls around our players will be so far checked out that a triple figure loss is likely on the cards. I hope it gives Adelaide top spot.

When does this shit end? When do the player/coaches/admin say this is enough now? That the rot stops with me.

St Kilda are a very average football team.

Personnel wise, we at best were missing X and a couple of shinboner defenders from our backline. That’s it.

This game wasn’t lost on a talent issue.

And yet with the team we put out yesterday we got smashed in contested possession and inside 50’s. Games done right there.

I don’t understand the lack of desperation to win. Even coaching against Ross Lyon, winning ugly is how to get it done. It’s still winning.

And yet the lapses to let in 4 unanswered goals to end the 3rd quarter was dog shit.

Ross actually changed his style against us because he knows his players won’t be heavily pressured when ball is in hand and defensively we are prone to errors off turnover which allows cheap scores. Game, set and match.

Coming off a 100 point loss, I used to call sides of previous era’s reactionary as we always allowed a basement performance before rebounding the following week. And I had the opinion we would never elevate ourselves to being a successful top 4 side unless we attacked the top end of the draft. But that’s a topic for another day.

Under Pagan, Laidley and Scott - the club was known for making things right and winning the week immediately after a triple figure loss.

I think it was Simmo who said no matter what, we trained hard that week and we made sure we got the 4 points the very next game after a shocking performance 7 days prior.

-QF 2000 vs *. Beat Hawthorn the following week.
-Round 18 2001 vs Sydney. Beat Geelong the following week.
-Round 22 2004 vs Brisbane. Beat Carlton first up in 2005.
-QF 2007 vs Geelong. Beat Hawthorn the following week.
-Round 16 2011 vs Collingwood. Beat the Dogs the following week.
-Round 10 2012 vs Hawthorn. Beat the Suns the next game following our bye.


Then we look at the Noble/Clarko era and this is where it’s on the playing group. Do they want it enough? Are the standards there? The culture even.

-Good Friday Round 3 2021 vs the Dogs. Lost to Adelaide the following week.
-Round 3 2022 vs Brisbane. Lost to Sydney the following week.
-Round 16 2022 vs Geelong. Lost to Collingwood the following week.
-Round 24 2024 vs Hawthorn. Lost to the Bulldogs first up this year.
-Round 20 2025 vs Geelong. Lost to the Saints over the weekend.

It has to be said that we saw valiant efforts the past 4 years however history and facts still say it’s a loss. And this is what matters.
It’s all that matters.

Don’t know what it is or why it’s like this, but can easily make a case that this team does lack the backbone and the right attitude to be an honest football team. To have some character about us. And that’s we crave right now.

 

[Karanicolas]

He also has a shocking habit of stopping after a mark instead of taking off and continuing the flow of play.

I noticed it this week where he had the opportunity to take off into space and chose to stop and go behind the mark, especially when he was boundary side and wouldn’t have his left foot shut down.

In that position we need him to go and drive the play forward and try and create overlap.

Saw this in this in the third right in front of me. They did well to work it to his side where it was open for him to run on, and then he stopped. Lost the opportunity to kick to Harvey in the pocket or long to Larkey in the goal square.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Bloody hell, first quarter had some excitement. Last quarter was ok, but yeah probably out 12th game against teams outside the 8. And we have 16 points from those clashes.

FWIW, here are some more numbers that may put things into some perspective.

We’ve had a brutal draw so far this year and I’ve been looking at the draws that our opponents in the last couple of weeks have had, in comparison, and here are a few facts re your draw so far.

Most of this is largely copied and pasted from one or more other threads I’ve posted it in, prior to this latest game:

The AFL certainly look like they’ve screwed North over with their draw this year.

Despite making finals for the last two years, Carlton have now played 6 games against the bottom 4 teams, while North after 19 games have played just 3- despite finishing 2nd-last last year!- and Carlton have played 7 against the bottom 5, with North still just the 3.

A team like North who are trying to get off the canvas need plenty of games against the weaker teams, and just 3 against the bottom 5 teams from 19 games isn’t exactly giving them much chance of doing so.

And only 1 of those 3 was at one of their home grounds.

1 game against a bottom 5 team on their home ground/s from 19 games.

Western Bulldogs on the other hand have had 9 games against bottom 8 teams on their home ground/s (Marvel and Ballarat) so far this year!

If North had had Carlton’s draw so far they’d probably be within 2 points of Carlton’s win tally.

The AFL have not done either of our teams any favours with the draw this year (4 of our easiest games come in this last 5 weeks, and we can move up 3 spots with a win over Richmond this week), so all things considered, you guys have definitely taken a step forward this year.

You’re coming from a lonnnggg way back though, so it’s going to take time. It just is.

 

[Epictetus]

St Kilda are a very average football team.

Personnel wise, we at best were missing X and a couple of shinboner defenders from our backline. That’s it.

This game wasn’t lost on a talent issue.

And yet with the team we put out yesterday we got smashed in contested possession and inside 50’s. Games done right there.

I don’t understand the lack of desperation to win. Even coaching against Ross Lyon, winning ugly matters. It’s still winning.

And yet the lapses to let in 4 unanswered goals to end the 3rd quarter was dog shit.

Ross actually changed his style against us because he knows his players won’t be heavily pressured when ball is in hand and defensively we are prone to errors off turnover which allows cheap scores. Game, set and match.

Coming off a 100 point loss, I used to call sides of previous era’s reactionary as we always allowed a basement performance before rebounding the following week. And I had the opinion we would never elevate ourselves to being a successful top 4 side unless we attacked the top end of the draft. But that’s a topic for another day.

Under Pagan, Laidley and Scott - the club was known for makings things right and winning the week immediately after a triple figure loss.

I think it was Simmo who said no matter what we trained hard that week and we made sure we got the 4 points the very next game after a shocking performance 7 days prior.

-QF 2000 vs *. Beat Hawthorn the following week.
-Round 18 2001 vs Sydney. Beat Geelong the following week.
-Round 22 2004 vs Brisbane. Beat Carlton first up in 2005.
-QF 2007 vs Geelong. Beat Hawthorn the following week.
-Round 16 2011 vs Collingwood. Beast the Dogs the following week.
-Round 10 2012 vs Hawthorn. Beat the Suns the next game following our bye.


Then we look at the Noble/Clarko era and this is where it’s on the playing group. Do they want it enough? Are the standards there. The culture even.

-Good Friday Round 3 2021 vs the Dogs. Lost to Adelaide the following week.
-Round 3 2022 vs Brisbane. Lost to Sydney the following week.
-Round 16 2022 vs Geelong. Lost to Collingwood the following week.
-Round 24 2024 vs Hawthorn. Lost to the Bulldogs first up this year.
-Round 20 2025 vs Geelong. Lost to the Saints over the weekend.

It has to be said that we saw valiant efforts the past 4 years however history and facts still say it’s a loss. And this is what matters.
It’s all that matters.

Don’t know what it is or why it’s like this, but can easily make a case that this team does lack the backbone and the right attitude to be an honest football team. And that’s we crave right now.

Those teams had more pride and character, obviously.

They also had waaay better players.

This board is still delusional about the lack of talent on this list. And it boggles the mind.

 

[koshari]

the last opportunity we had late in the game just couldn't spill up to the right position for one of our players to be able to grab it to have a short...was frustrating. I was expecting us to get pumped in the last but they responded so I was at least not as disappointed as I could have been.

Still go missing in a quarter or two and always costs us in these games where we have narrow losses.

I had us with 5 goals loss. So not shattered.

 

[FootySmartSimpson]

I know the bar is low, but you would not believe how excited I was to see Duursma’s incredible (regulation) handball to Kerch who didn’t have to break stride on his way to goal.

Is he cleaner than Sheezel this kid? He just needs to be able to run 15km a game and he’ll be right.

 

[chickenonachain]

For me one of biggest problems is we haven’t got one player who can play for four quarters. Players switch on then switch off just as quickly. This happens every week, a quarter or a quarter and a half we switch off and it does my head in. Is it fitness and strengthening training ? Players just waltz through our tackles.

 

[FootySmartSimpson]

For me one of biggest problems is we haven’t got one player who can play for four quarters. Players switch on then switch off just as quickly. This happens every week, a quarter or a quarter and a half we switch off and it does my head in. Is it fitness and strengthening training ? Players just waltz through our tackles.

The closest we have is X. In some games this year CZ has found a way to impact the game over four quarters.

 

[tazaa]

Those teams had more pride and character, obviously.

They also had waaay better players.

This board is still delusional about the lack of talent on this list. And it boggles the mind.

I agree. Our list is a mess still 6 years in and explains why we sit 17th.
But the club isn’t owning that hence the frustration and anger.

We shouldn’t be this poor this far in.

 

[Only Forwards]

I agree. Our list is a mess still 6 years in and explains why we sit 17th.
But the club isn’t owning that hence the frustration and anger.

We shouldn’t be this poor this far in.

Built from the midfield out.

Draft mids play them exclusively at half back.

What KPP we do bring in we play in the backline.

Over pay for the same position 3 times still don’t have it right.

bring in little to no overhead ability, move the ball such that almost every foray forward requires it.

The mids we’ve brought in are typically small.

Despite all of that and the clear deficiencies of it, if we had a cohesive game plan the players believed in and could execute our W/L would be very different.

How many of our players could look each other in the eye before a game and say I am going to give everything I have to help you win this game? Not many. Proof is right there. We saw shepherds in the last game and it stuck out like dogs balls.

 

[Waynesworld]

Away from the ball. He has been rubbish the last 6 weeks. Should be dropped

Yep. I also thought he had the opportunity to win the game for us when the ball bounced into the goal square in the dying minutes, but he stood back and waited for someone else to go for it.

 

[berniemccarthy]

It’s not the pure numbers.

It’s the type of turnovers.

They’re simple, unacceptable disposal errors that cost shots at goal or enable a shot for the opponent.

They’re often under no pressure.

Self inflicted garbage.

This is sadly, irrefutably true. Stream down far wing looking a million bucks. Clean exciting football - get to half forward - kick it to them. Kills you.

 

[Arthur Cloke]

Is there a NM player who is the complete package? From where I sit up here in the Sunshine State, it seems every NM player has some serious deficiencies.

 

[zoomba23]

Is there a NM player who is the complete package? From where I sit up here in the Sunshine State, it seems every NM player has some serious deficiencies.

FOS would be close. Hardeman relatively untried but doesn't have a noticeable weakness aside from no non-preferred, which is hardly a deal breaker these days

 

[Wayne Campbell]

See how that looks when you take out Parker, Darling and Daniel

 

[Samsquanch]

Is there a NM player who is the complete package? From where I sit up here in the Sunshine State, it seems every NM player has some serious deficiencies.

What you don't see on TV is that several of our defenders are elite at losing their opponents and finding space in our backline. Occasionally they can be 20 or 30 metres in the clear when the opposition are streaming forward in case the unpressured kick spews off the side of a boot and misses it's target by a mile.

It doesn't work that well in games but it's been an extremely successful tactic at training and in the intra-club practise matches so it's worth persisting with as a defensive plan.

 

[Hazey1977]

FWIW, here are some more numbers that may put things into some perspective.

We’ve had a brutal draw so far this year and I’ve been looking at the draws that our opponents in the last couple of weeks have had, in comparison, and here are a few facts re your draw so far.

Most of this is largely copied and pasted from one or more other threads I’ve posted it in, prior to this latest game:

The AFL certainly look like they’ve screwed North over with their draw this year.

Despite making finals for the last two years, Carlton have now played 6 games against the bottom 4 teams, while North after 19 games have played just 3- despite finishing 2nd-last last year!- and Carlton have played 7 against the bottom 5, with North still just the 3.

A team like North who are trying to get off the canvas need plenty of games against the weaker teams, and just 3 against the bottom 5 teams from 19 games isn’t exactly giving them much chance of doing so.

And only 1 of those 3 was at one of their home grounds.

1 game against a bottom 5 team on their home ground/s from 19 games.

Western Bulldogs on the other hand have had 9 games against bottom 8 teams on their home ground/s (Marvel and Ballarat) so far this year!

If North had had Carlton’s draw so far they’d probably be within 2 points of Carlton’s win tally.

The AFL have not done either of our teams any favours with the draw this year (4 of our easiest games come in this last 5 weeks, and we can move up 3 spots with a win over Richmond this week), so all things considered, you guys have definitely taken a step forward this year.

You’re coming from a lonnnggg way back though, so it’s going to take time. It just is.

Thats an interesting set of data! How the **** does it end badly skewed!