West Coast - When will the AFL step in?

[bzparkes]

That was under the old system which set a w/l record benchmark for receiving a priority pick. It only weaken the argument to refer to that - that system is clearly no longer in place.

WCE should be measured against those who have recieved assistance since it became a 'privately determined' criteria ala Brisbane, GC and North Melbourne.

Yeah but his club benefited from it, so he should've brought it up and said they shouldn't have received one either.

I'm sure he has NFI they got one though.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Yeah but his club benefited from it, so he should've brought it up and said they shouldn't have received one either.

I'm sure he has NFI they got one though.

Well it was 20 years ago under a different system. So it doesn't really matter.

Hird's argument of 'they are rich and won a flag, they should get no help' are as flimsy as they are coming from a moron on Bigfooty, but WCE aren't asking for a former rule to be re-activated, they are asking to be assessed for assistance like Brisbane, GC and North were in recent years and how Richmond probably will be too over the next couple of years.

 

[Scotland]

The old system didn't discriminate. PPs were awarded based on W-L records and that was that. Was it fair? That's a matter of opinion. But it was transparent. The AFL got rattled by the Jordan McMahon

Jordan Mcmahon

Age

42

Ht

186cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.2

4star

K

11.0

4star

HB

6.2

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.8

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

0.6

3star

game in 2009 and panicked into introducing the nothing system we have now.

1997 Melbourne won 4 games and had picks 1 and 2. Then they won 14, 6 and 14 games with a GF appearance in 2000. They won 5 games in 2003 and had picks 3 and 5, then after a couple of good years they had pick 17 in 2008 and picks 1 and 2 in 2009 under the second incarnation of the PP rules which made it a two year cycle to get a first round PP.

WC got second round PPs in 2008 and 2010 after winning the flag in 2006 and a first round PP in 2001 after winning the flag in 1994. Collingwood made back to back GFs 2002 and 2003 then got Pendlebury and Thomas in 2005. After that they didn't miss the finals again until 2014. Hawthorn were double dipped in 2004 and 2005 and were a finalist or close to it from 2007-2016. WB likewise and were pretty good for the next 5 or 6 years.

The common thread is that most teams who benefited from the old system improved quickly and got out of the 5 win threshold which is kinda the point. WC picks 3 and 6 in 2001, picks 2 and 18 in 2008. And from 2002-2007 our lowest finish was 8th which mean that our best pick was pick 8 (9, bumped up a spot courtesy of Carlton). When it was Haw/WB/Collingwood's turn at the bottom we entered the draft at picks 12 and 13. Which is the system working. Now we're at the point where North just had their 6th season of 5 wins or fewer in a row. WC up to 4. Is that better?

 

[Corkintheocean]

Well it was 20 years ago under a different system. So it doesn't really matter.

Hird's argument of 'they are rich and won a flag, they should get no help' are as flimsy as they are coming from a moron on Bigfooty, but WCE aren't asking for a former rule to be re-activated, they are asking to be assessed for assistance like Brisbane, GC and North were in recent years and how Richmond probably will be too over the next couple of years.

His argument is completely nonsensical considering we're unable to spend the money we have under the salary cap and soft cap rules. If he's effectively arguing for the abolition of both - then I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly with him (ofc that's not what he's arguing. I'm not even sure he knows what he's arguing for.)

 

[garlic munchers]

The AFL underestimates the inertia of fans losing interest in the competition. They are totally disconnected from the fans. Crowds are still good and it's a slow moving beast so it's not like the A-League or NBL where the highs and lows of popularity are pronounced. Once the tide starts to turn it won't be easy to fix quickly. Fans aren't all that interested in seeing manufactured dominance from NSW/Qld sides or teams at the bottom regularly losing by 50-100 points each week. As a neutral it's hard to get excited for Gold Coast vs Essendon even with the result determining the Suns finals spot.

Agree to an extent for now..... had a lot of interest is seeing a Vic establishment side getting pumped.

Mind you, if we end up with a sustained period of NSW/QLD dominance at our and other clubs expense, that may fall away.

 

[Scotland]

Agree to an extent for now..... had a lot of interest is seeing a Vic establishment side getting pumped.

Mind you, if we end up with a sustained period of NSW/QLD dominance at our and other clubs expense, that may fall away.

It's about who is dominant and about how they got there.

It was fun watching the Wildcats when they had Cotton and it will be less fun watching him play for the 36ers. It wasn't much fun watching the Kings have Tate and Ware (imports) and Bogut (returning star on big contract) and Lisch (naturalised) and Cooks and Louzada (next star) all at once. It was iffy how they had that roster but rules are what they are. If the NBL turned around and said that Sydney can have 5 imports because that's good for promoting the game but no one else then everyone would switch off. This is the path the AFL are edging down with their academy rules so if they don't address it they risk fans losing interest.

 

[Scotland]

His argument is completely nonsensical considering we're unable to spend the money we have under the salary cap and soft cap rules. If he's effectively arguing for the abolition of both - then I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly with him (ofc that's not what he's arguing. I'm not even sure he knows what he's arguing for.)

It's also a nothing argument because the concessions afforded to other clubs under each incarnation of the PP rules have nothing to do with the salary cap or footy dept spending. It has exclusively been list spots and draft/zone selections. The club aren't asking for some kind of exemption to the soft cap because if they thought spending more money on assistant coaches, training staff etc. was the answer they could just do it anyway. The submission as reported asked for the ability to sign a free agent without diluting compo (which I think the AFL will say no to) and additional rookie list spots (I think they will grant). These are two things that without the submission can't/won't be granted. The club can't pop down to Target and buy 4 list spots. We also can't trade in any player that doesn't want to come to the club. The ability in US sports to absorb bad contracts in exchange for draft assets is an advantage that teams at the bottom have that the AFL won't consider.

If WC were spending $1m a year above the soft cap and in turn paying however much luxury tax required we would either be better performed - in which case the argument would be that there is no case for a PP, or just as shit - in which case the argument would be that spending more money makes no difference. So we would effectively have to spend money that other clubs don't have and still be shit in order to be eligible for assistance. Which is fine, just call it what it is. Call me a cynic but I've seen WC go bottom 4 to top 4 to bottom 4 to top 4 before the soft cap was introduced so I don't think spending more guarantees anything if you don't have the cattle.

 

[Freomaniac]

Can’t give Amiss a tick, the bloke drafted at 57 has similar stats. Pretty rough for a pick 8.

So according to you, Amiss is poo because he isn't a spear head or a full forward?

Yet Darling can escape criticism because he was a centre half forward?


Right.....

 

[Freomaniac]

Move on senior players to generate high end draft capital whilst simultaneously not letting those same players go because we need leadership & experience and if we take either of those options, or none, we're not serious about our rebuild oh and don't dare ask the AFL for assistance.

TLDR: These supporters just want WCE stuck at the bottom for as long as possible and nothing else.

I don't mind the eagles being bottom for a long time. Some eagles fans deserve some tough times and learn some humility LoL

 

[Cuzz09]

Pro: we've got the top 2 picks.

Con: we'll trade them for beans

 

[Purple Suit]

It's also a nothing argument because the concessions afforded to other clubs under each incarnation of the PP rules have nothing to do with the salary cap or footy dept spending. It has exclusively been list spots and draft/zone selections. The club aren't asking for some kind of exemption to the soft cap because if they thought spending more money on assistant coaches, training staff etc. was the answer they could just do it anyway. The submission as reported asked for the ability to sign a free agent without diluting compo (which I think the AFL will say no to) and additional rookie list spots (I think they will grant). These are two things that without the submission can't/won't be granted. The club can't pop down to Target and buy 4 list spots. We also can't trade in any player that doesn't want to come to the club. The ability in US sports to absorb bad contracts in exchange for draft assets is an advantage that teams at the bottom have that the AFL won't consider.

If WC were spending $1m a year above the soft cap and in turn paying however much luxury tax required we would either be better performed - in which case the argument would be that there is no case for a PP, or just as shit - in which case the argument would be that spending more money makes no difference. So we would effectively have to spend money that other clubs don't have and still be shit in order to be eligible for assistance. Which is fine, just call it what it is. Call me a cynic but I've seen WC go bottom 4 to top 4 to bottom 4 to top 4 before the soft cap was introduced so I don't think spending more guarantees anything if you don't have the cattle.

You can use cap space for draft assets. The AFL signed off on the Bowes deal and the Wil Brodie deal for example and that was for teams not in the bottom 4. WC just need to get a bit more ruthless and creative. You are too slow to turn over players as your club seems to be scared of missing one rather than trying to find one.

Like panning for gold, you take twice as long to chuck the pan. You might notice an extra scrap every now and then but you have half the pans in the same timeframe. The big nuggets stand out much quicker.

How good would the ex-eagles team be in the league? Probably the worst in the comp, this is a window into one of your many issues.

 

[Obeanie1]

You can use cap space for draft assets. The AFL signed off on the Bowes deal and the Wil Brodie deal for example and that was for teams not in the bottom 4. WC just need to get a bit more ruthless and creative. You are too slow to turn over players as your club seems to be scared of missing one rather than trying to find one.

Like panning for gold, you take twice as long to chuck the pan. You might notice an extra scrap every now and then but you have half the pans in the same timeframe. The big nuggets stand out much quicker.

How good would the ex-eagles team be in the league? Probably the worst in the comp, this is a window into one of your many issues.

20 20 hindsight.

If only it existed.

Listing the best side of players axed or traded would be a good off season thread actually.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I don't mind the eagles being bottom for a long time. Some eagles fans deserve some tough times and learn some humility LoL

I think the Crows are an excellent comparison with the Eagles
Biggest club in a footy mad state. Scaled the mountain and then had a period in the wilderness. Smart trading and drafting and staying the course now sees them minor premier and one of the fave for the flag.
Lot has to go right and takes time but it's achievable

 

[Gavin Excell]

Pro: we've got the top 2 picks.

Con: we'll trade them for beans

I thought last years top 3 pick was squandered on Liam Baker and Owies

They are solid foot soldiers but aren't going to move the dial

 

[Purple Suit]

20 20 hindsight.

If only it existed.

Listing the best side of players axed or traded would be a good off season thread actually.

I’ve been saying that for your whole rebuild. I get told that 6 to 8 list changes a year is fine by WC fans.

 

[Obeanie1]

I’ve been saying that for your whole rebuild. I get told that 6 to 8 list changes a year is fine by WC fans.

6 to 8 changes a year is ok as an average.

8 to 10 is getting serious.

Problem is what quality will you bring in with changes 9 and 10? In the draft that's pick 70 plus or delisted players. Maybe a free agent.

So if you can't land a decent free agent it's a blind throw at the stumps.

 

[Big_Birdy]

I thought last years top 3 pick was squandered on Liam Baker and Owies

They are solid foot soldiers but aren't going to move the dial

We got Bo Allan too

 

[Obeanie1]

I thought last years top 3 pick was squandered on Liam Baker and Owies

They are solid foot soldiers but aren't going to move the dial

Baker already has moved the dial.

And the deal also landed the WA state captain and highest rated WA player in the draft who we were stunned slid to our 1st.

 

[Cuzz09]

I thought last years top 3 pick was squandered on Liam Baker and Owies

They are solid foot soldiers but aren't going to move the dial

yeah thats my point

Please just take the best 2 mids

 

[ballsohard]

I think the Crows are an excellent comparison with the Eagles
Biggest club in a footy mad state. Scaled the mountain and then had a period in the wilderness. Smart trading and drafting and staying the course now sees them minor premier and one of the fave for the flag.
Lot has to go right and takes time but it's achievable

If we could trade in a brownlow contender in Jordan Dawson entering his prime for a late first round pick it would be very handy for our rebuild too.

 

[Scotland]

You can use cap space for draft assets. The AFL signed off on the Bowes deal and the Wil Brodie deal for example and that was for teams not in the bottom 4. WC just need to get a bit more ruthless and creative. You are too slow to turn over players as your club seems to be scared of missing one rather than trying to find one.

Like panning for gold, you take twice as long to chuck the pan. You might notice an extra scrap every now and then but you have half the pans in the same timeframe. The big nuggets stand out much quicker.

The AFL signed off on the Bowes deal because Bowes signed off on the Bowes deal. I agree a million % that WC are not nearly as ruthless as we were and need to be, but we still don't have the ability to take a player like say Ugle-Hagan + a draft pick and pay him $800k next year to sit on his arse and play video games or whatever it is he does in his spare time. There is a difference between getting a player on the cheap (or in Geelong's case being paid to take them) because of a cap squeeze or a change in direction of the club etc. and taking on bad contracts and having players sit out etc. The AFL aren't ready for that and don't want it anyway. Player movement is cooked because the players now have wayyy too much power.

How good would the ex-eagles team be in the league? Probably the worst in the comp, this is a window into one of your many issues.

That's a new one. How good would the ex-Swans and ex-Cats teams be?

WC can't win in this space (or any space, lol). Held onto players too long after 2019/2020 (when we were good), now with a tiny core of experienced players half of them are injured and we get pumped. Everyone talks about 'they won a flag 7 years ago' but the sum total left from that team is Cripps, Yeo, Cole, Duggan, Ryan. We could have let Yeo go last year and maybe got a band 2 or band 3 compo pick (same same when you are bottom 3) and then we would've been criticised for not putting any support around Harley Reid. Etc.

WC's first poor year was 2021, when we only missed the finals by one game but our second half the season was trash. That team whether you think we should've run it back and hoped for better availability in 2022 or blown it up wasn't all that valuable. People seem to think we should've been looking to trade our best players when they had peak value (i.e. when we were good) or should've been looking to trade 28, 29, 30 year olds and somehow turn that into gold. Even if we let Gaff or McGovern go in free agency the best we would've ended up with is a pick in the 20s.

 

[Shueygod]

So according to you, Amiss is poo because he isn't a spear head or a full forward?

Yet Darling can escape criticism because he was a centre half forward?


Right.....

Darling had Amiss covered in literally every stat at the same age, averaging 7 more disposals, 1.3 more marks, 0.4 more goals, 2.9 more tackles.

What kind of comparison is that?

I was referring to Jack Williams not Darling.

 

[Cleric]

It is very hard for the Eagles to get free agents at the moment.
Many reasons but we just haven't had the picks and couldn't compete with the Dockers with West Aussies returning.
Hard to get players from Victoria who are free agents leaving northern states will and want to go to big Melbourne clubs and live in their home state.

The main push has to be chasing WA players.
Im not sure how many good ones have come up lately to chase, but you would think that they would be similar to SA guys who might want to come home and play for the team they supported growing up.

My own personal observation is that WC havent been aggressive in that space. I will bring up Curtain again, because while he was happy in SA, if WC made a crazy offer of say 1 million a year, it would be something he would have had to seriously think about.

Even though they are from you state, you still have to pay them good coin to get them back. The fact they are from that state just makes them less resistant to move there vs a Victorian guy.

 

[Cleric]

Spot on. It's not just about picking the right player either, you need to be able to develop them. The teams that cannot drag themselves out of the bottom of the ladder generally have huge issues in this area. The Sydney's & Geelongs have it down pat so they hardly ever dip either.

The IP in the league appears to move a lot these days so if you are not looking to improve your development set-up then you are going backwards.

Yep, totally agree. Some teams are far better at developing players than others, and the reality is that if these high picks go into a shit system for long enough their development gets stunted and they never reach their ceiling even if they move clubs.

 

[Cleric]

The old system didn't discriminate. PPs were awarded based on W-L records and that was that. Was it fair? That's a matter of opinion. But it was transparent. The AFL got rattled by the Jordan McMahon game in 2009 and panicked into introducing the nothing system we have now.

1997 Melbourne won 4 games and had picks 1 and 2. Then they won 14, 6 and 14 games with a GF appearance in 2000. They won 5 games in 2003 and had picks 3 and 5, then after a couple of good years they had pick 17 in 2008 and picks 1 and 2 in 2009 under the second incarnation of the PP rules which made it a two year cycle to get a first round PP.

WC got second round PPs in 2008 and 2010 after winning the flag in 2006 and a first round PP in 2001 after winning the flag in 1994. Collingwood made back to back GFs 2002 and 2003 then got Pendlebury and Thomas in 2005. After that they didn't miss the finals again until 2014. Hawthorn were double dipped in 2004 and 2005 and were a finalist or close to it from 2007-2016. WB likewise and were pretty good for the next 5 or 6 years.

The common thread is that most teams who benefited from the old system improved quickly and got out of the 5 win threshold which is kinda the point. WC picks 3 and 6 in 2001, picks 2 and 18 in 2008. And from 2002-2007 our lowest finish was 8th which mean that our best pick was pick 8 (9, bumped up a spot courtesy of Carlton). When it was Haw/WB/Collingwood's turn at the bottom we entered the draft at picks 12 and 13. Which is the system working. Now we're at the point where North just had their 6th season of 5 wins or fewer in a row. WC up to 4. Is that better?

True, but the problem with that system was alot of teams got stuck in the quicksand zone and stayed middle of the table for a decade. Adelaide was such a club for a long while. Didn't have the talent to win a flag, but were talented enough that they never got high picks to get that talent.