Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXIX

[GoBlues!]

He only played 13 games this season.

Glimpses may be a little too critical but it's not a full season's body of work.

I was actually pleased to see Jack back after missing last year. He took some good marks down back and was part of a good defensive unit along with Haynes and Weiters..

He’s not a $900k/yr AA defender class player, but played well.

 

[Gethelred]

I've lost a lot of confidence in my straight up writing so when I write something that I feel is important to me or I feel can be easily misread I will run it through ChatGPT and work with it to tighten up the language, etc. The thoughts are definitely mine.

I don't think we spend as much time actually pondering the ****ing miracle that is speech and the written word as we should. You're literally getting my thoughts as best as I can convey them to you implanted into your head. Signal, signifier, signified.

Who you are as a person and how you think are as much influenced by the minor mistakes and word choices we make when we write as the intention behind it.

You don't need ChatGPT, Wick. Your thoughts are valuable - human - in part because of the mistakes, not in spite of them.

 

[Wickzki]

In Curnow's case I'd be levelling most of the criticism at the coaching staff/football department for allowing this situation to develop.
As for Jack, there were factors across the club associated with the surname which contributed to the story line of this soap opera.

I don't disagree whatsoever hence the "if we were a better managed club..."

Players need to take their own individual accountability but the buck stops at the club for allowing its players to be treated in this manner.

 

[Carltonfc9]

It’s really not that hard.

His manager is spinning a yarn & most are falling for it - the club would know where it’s coming from.

No doubt the club has made clear to Charles their intention not to trade him with 4 years to go on his contract.

These guys are professional athletes in professional organisations.

Thankfully they function well beyond the emotional cloud we wheeze within.

I understand that, but it's the extent he's manager is going to, to make it happen he's a leader of the football club it should be happening with out all this media circus

 

[2ndeffort]

I'm interested to see preseason if Charlie stays now. A lotttt has been said in the media and on these here forums.

I think he is a better than not chance to stay, mainly because I doubt other club's ability to offer up anything we would accept in a trade. Its a bit like the Petracca situation last year for Melbourne. No doubt Trac wanted out and I'm sure other clubs would want him but nobody would be prepared to offer up something acceptable so he stayed.

 

[KJP7]

I think so mate. We gave the "kids" a lot of affordances.

We held them to far too little accountability. Kept going under Teague. By the time Voss got them it was a runaway train. If you try and incorporate changes, force players to be more accountable as identified by the likes of Weiters and Walsh this year some just cannot handle it.

They've grown together as individuals and mates. They haven't grown together as a team and we've watched it play out badly this year.

This point particularly resonates, when we were going through the rebuild we obviously identified certain personality types to come in to build the culture and camaraderie.

Personally, I was excited by this because we'd seen a similar model at GWS (albiet with greater draft concessions) but they were a tight-knit group who were growing up together and destined for success. In some ways both teams followed a similar pathway where there was plenty of talent but they didn't know how to play as a team.

Kingsley's done a remarkable job turning it around as quickly as has done.

 

[Treesloth]

I think so mate. We gave the "kids" a lot of affordances.

We held them to far too little accountability. Kept going under Teague. By the time Voss got them it was a runaway train. If you try and incorporate changes, force players to be more accountable as identified by the likes of Weiters and Walsh this year some just cannot handle it.

They've grown together as individuals and mates. They haven't grown together as a team and we've watched it play out badly this year.

This is just form the outside looking in - but I reckon it’s telling that Kennedy said how much harder he’s trained at the dogs.

Yet our lot are full of factions and some are waging constant personality wars with the coaching staff.

Like if you walk into the Dogs and they are all training their arses off - to a standard higher than you’re used to - then you’re not going to be the one player who questions it. You’ll jump on board and be part of that culture.

We don’t seem to have that cohesive investment.

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

This point particularly resonates, when we were going through the rebuild we obviously identified certain personality types to come in to build the culture and camaraderie.

Personally, I was excited by this because we'd seen a similar model at GWS (albiet with greater draft concessions) but they were a tight-knit group who were growing up together and destined for success. In some ways both teams followed a similar pathway where there was plenty of talent but they didn't know how to play as a team.

Kingsley's done a remarkable job turning it around as quickly as has done.

Agree that Kingsley has done pretty well, then again the list he has is the strongest in the AFL imo. Tipping that they could have a very good

September, we shall see.

 

[thegreatbeast]

Some people here won’t like what I’m about to say, but I don’t particularly care.


If Carlton had been a better-run club—regardless of who was coach—Jack Silvagni and Charlie Curnow wouldn’t have ended up in this position.

Jack Silvagni

On Monday night I posted that while we all love how “unconditional” Jack plays, he’s actually been one of the most conditional players we’ve had in 20 years. I stand by that.

We’ve given Jack more love and latitude than almost any late draft pick in AFL history. Since the modern father-son system came in, no pick in the 50s has been indulged the way he has.


A late pick usually plays with gratitude, grabs any role offered, and fights to prove themselves. Not Jack.

Early Career

Coaches saw him as a defender—he flat-out refused. Why? Because that was Dad’s territory. Instead of embracing the challenge, he demanded to play forward. He struggled.


The club tried to reinvent him as a midfielder/utility in the VFL. Showed promise, and when tested in the seniors (on Nat Fyfe, no less), he excelled. That could’ve been his position. Instead, he dismissed it almost as soon as it started.

Voss Era

Voss finally found a role that stuck—forward/backup ruck. Jack played it well, his most consistent stretch. But let’s be clear: it was his preferred forward role with a compromise attached. He said all the right things, but history shows he only accepted roles on his terms.

Reality check: he was a fringe player. Solid, but not indispensable. And the club was almost always fair with him - a couple of omissions come to mind as the outlier rather than the norm.

The turning point.

Injury struck. The team moved on. Kemp got a chance up forward late in the year and showed traits Jack never had—separation, leap, athleticism. Combine Kemp with Charlie and Harry and suddenly the forward line looked set.


Jack saw the writing on the wall. Almost a decade in, he finally requested to be considered as a defender. At last.


To his credit, he trained hard, came into the season looking fit, and showed glimpses down back. But injuries again ended his season early.

We’re talking about pick 53 who twice refused the roles the club identified for him. He only accepted the defender role when his forward spot was gone.

Any other pick 53 who pushed back like that would’ve been cut long before they got the chance to “figure it out.”

Carlton didn’t just tolerate Jack. We bent over backwards for him—showing him more love and patience than almost any other player in his draft range would ever get.

Instead, Jack demonstrates that he's entitled.

You want players to have freedom? Jack had it at a level never before seen.

Charlie Curnow

Some people won’t like this either, but let’s talk about Charlie Curnow.

We all know he’s a freakish talent. When he’s on, he’s unstoppable. Back-to-back Colemans don’t happen by accident. But the path to get here? It’s not just about perseverance—it’s also about freedom and agency that most players would never be granted.

Charlie hasn’t exactly lived like a monk. Many off-field activities that most footballers would never get clearance for—he’s indulged them. Those freedoms have directly contributed to setbacks. His injuries haven’t all been “bad luck”—some of them trace back to lifestyle and choices outside the club’s control.

At Carlton, that behaviour didn’t see him reined in. Instead, he was trusted to keep doing his thing while the club absorbed the consequences. Any other player—especially one without Charlie’s raw talent—would’ve been pulled into line, told to focus on footy, or quietly shown the door.

And when the injuries piled up, Charlie wasn’t treated like a standard player. He had a say in his rehab. When the club wanted one approach, he wanted another—and more often than not, he got his way. He stepped away from standard timelines, rebuilt his body on his terms, and the club gave him the latitude to do it.

That’s not how it works for most footballers. Usually, it’s “do the program or you’re out.” Charlie got trust and space

Eventually, it worked. Carlton’s patience and indulgence paid off—he returned, dominated, and has become everything we hoped he’d be.

But let’s not pretend this treatment was normal. If a lesser player had suffered repeated setback from personal choices, they’d have faced greater scrutiny. Charlie’s once-in-a-generation talent bought him freedoms that others wouldn’t even dream of.

Charlie’s game style reflects the same freedom. He plays with a laid-back, individual-first approach. He’ll pull off the spectacular, but when the contest demands a second effort or a hard chase, too often he doesn’t deliver. He’s not a gut-buster. He’s not the type to grind away for a teammate’s benefit.


That’s been part of the package from day one: mercurial, brilliant, but not always team-first in the one-percenters. Again, it’s tolerated because he can turn a game on its head with one burst of brilliance.

Charlie Curnow is a superstar. But he’s also the beneficiary of a system that bent over backwards—not just for his recovery, but for the freedoms he took off the field that played a role in his injuries.

That gamble paid off for Carlton from 2022 through most of 2024. But let’s be honest: almost no one else would’ve been given that much rope.

The Common Thread​

Carlton bent over backwards for both Jack Silvagni and Charlie Curnow. Jack was indulged when he knocked back roles and only accepted positions on his terms. Charlie was indulged when his off-field choices contributed to injuries and when his laid-back, individual-first mindset meant he wasn’t always giving second efforts.

Both were given freedoms, patience, and agency that most AFL players would never receive. Their talent (in Charlie’s case) and surname (in Jack’s case) bought them leeway that others simply wouldn’t have had.

A better-managed football club would have struck the balance: giving both players some freedom to be themselves, but holding them accountable early, setting hard boundaries, and keeping them in line. Instead, Carlton blurred those lines and let indulgence become the norm.

Thank you for the honesty and sharing this info.

This statement is the most important piece in all of the above: "If Carlton had been a better-run club"

We let standards drop as we're too scared to lose the player. It reminds me, and to a lesser extent of course as he was an absolutely loose unit, of Fevola. Making such obvious compromises affects the entire playing group.

 

[myblueroan]

Thanks for your post Wick.

Good stuff.

Tis the Season for Tomes. Read or don't .

whatevs!

Much of what you wrote re Charlie is well known. At least I heard all about it over on TC and in my time as a Mod there we got to hear quite a bit.
Have you never known talented people who drive you insane?

They are who they are. Plenty of faults but loveable and capable of great things.
Charlie has given me so much joy as a player.
I don't care for all the trash talk. Makes me feel ill
Another question - ever had a friend who broke up with someone and vented for weeks...
Then they get back together. They know you think less of them .You are waiting for them to **** up, but at the same time demanding they be perfect.
You never allowed for your friends part in it, because you are loyal to your friend.

Meanwhile you might even want the returned partner to **** up, just so you and wronged partner can feel justified and 'right' about them.

Wick, you have a family connection who used to be at the club. They have their pov.
You have yours.
What we get, is opinion coloured with opinion overlayed on 'facts'.
And adjectives added to events.

'A' happening, means 'B' is -/must be entitled.

When all we really have, is the event and the person. Say skateboarding like a young dick around Carlton, and not basketballing, when...oops.

So freaking what! Young, athletic, hyper...dumb stupid careless.
But this player brings joy like few can.
A 'golden retriever running with abandon' type of happy.
That's Charlie for me.
Having done and made a gazillion mistakes also, I'm ok with it.
I bought into the journey with Charlie.
My joy in being a supporter comes from the players when they achieve great things on field.
The aren't a bunch of AI bots thank God.
Flawed- like us. Young with a ton of pressure to perform & also be dads and husbands/"partners - plus studying.

As for the greater freedom players are afforded at the Cats - it's based on trust that players will do the work required without endless meetings and being at the club.
It works.
That philosophy may suit Charlie a whole lot better than the atmosphere and culture at Carlton and under Voss- who imho has obviously not been able to relate and foster the relationship Charlie needed to thrive.

Now, if I was coach - I'd look to myself to improve my skills. Not Voss. He seems to trash the players for failing him .
Where is his own accountabliity?
Have we heard it?

The lack of fun, dare and creativity on field, could well be a direct result of the attitude and philosophy coming from the coach.

It is the opposite of what is happening at thriving clubs- which my original post pointed to.

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

This is just form the outside looking in - but I reckon it’s telling that Kennedy said how much harder he’s trained at the dogs.

Yet our lot are full of factions and some are waging constant personality wars with the coaching staff.

Like if you walk into the Dogs and they are all training their arses off - to a standard higher than you’re used to - then you’re not going to be the one player who questions it. You’ll jump on board and be part of that culture.

We don’t seem to have that cohesive investment.

Was good to see Matt Kennedy have a career best season, on reflection we really could have used him ourselves this year.

Agreed with Wickzkis summation on Jacks career thus far, however I will still enjoy watching him play and wish him all the best. Has been a

favourite of mine over the years. Really do hope that he does not end up at the Aints, would much prefer to see him playing with Bam Bam at

the kennel next season.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

I think he is a better than not chance to stay, mainly because I doubt other club's ability to offer up anything we would accept in a trade. Its a bit like the Petracca situation last year for Melbourne. No doubt Trac wanted out and I'm sure other clubs would want him but nobody would be prepared to offer up something acceptable so he stayed.

Trac was also pretty mediocre and looked miserable this year. They sacked Goodwin just to keep him happy, I think.

 

[Sector 7G]

Was good to see Matt Kennedy have a career best season, on reflection we really could have used him ourselves this year.

Agreed with Wickzkis summation on Jacks career thus far, however I will still enjoy watching him play and wish him all the best. Has been a

favourite of mine over the years. Really do hope that he does not end up at the Aints, would much prefer to see him playing with Bam Bam at

the kennel next season.

As much as I loved MK, I doubt he would have helped us much at all this season. Our Midfield was too slow as it was and when it was all on the line Freo smashed the Dogs for outside run. Dogs looked good against the bottom sides who they thrashed but couldn't beat top 8 sides and that is why they are not playing finals.

 

[Gavstar]

Some people here won’t like what I’m about to say, but I don’t particularly care.


If Carlton had been a better-run club—regardless of who was coach—Jack Silvagni and Charlie Curnow wouldn’t have ended up in this position.

Jack Silvagni

On Monday night I posted that while we all love how “unconditional” Jack plays, he’s actually been one of the most conditional players we’ve had in 20 years. I stand by that.

We’ve given Jack more love and latitude than almost any late draft pick in AFL history. Since the modern father-son system came in, no pick in the 50s has been indulged the way he has.


A late pick usually plays with gratitude, grabs any role offered, and fights to prove themselves. Not Jack.

Early Career

Coaches saw him as a defender—he flat-out refused. Why? Because that was Dad’s territory. Instead of embracing the challenge, he demanded to play forward. He struggled.


The club tried to reinvent him as a midfielder/utility in the VFL. Showed promise, and when tested in the seniors (on Nat Fyfe, no less), he excelled. That could’ve been his position. Instead, he dismissed it almost as soon as it started.

Voss Era

Voss finally found a role that stuck—forward/backup ruck. Jack played it well, his most consistent stretch. But let’s be clear: it was his preferred forward role with a compromise attached. He said all the right things, but history shows he only accepted roles on his terms.

Reality check: he was a fringe player. Solid, but not indispensable. And the club was almost always fair with him - a couple of omissions come to mind as the outlier rather than the norm.

The turning point.

Injury struck. The team moved on. Kemp got a chance up forward late in the year and showed traits Jack never had—separation, leap, athleticism. Combine Kemp with Charlie and Harry and suddenly the forward line looked set.


Jack saw the writing on the wall. Almost a decade in, he finally requested to be considered as a defender. At last.


To his credit, he trained hard, came into the season looking fit, and showed glimpses down back. But injuries again ended his season early.

We’re talking about pick 53 who twice refused the roles the club identified for him. He only accepted the defender role when his forward spot was gone.

Any other pick 53 who pushed back like that would’ve been cut long before they got the chance to “figure it out.”

Carlton didn’t just tolerate Jack. We bent over backwards for him—showing him more love and patience than almost any other player in his draft range would ever get.

Instead, Jack demonstrates that he's entitled.

You want players to have freedom? Jack had it at a level never before seen.

Charlie Curnow

Some people won’t like this either, but let’s talk about Charlie Curnow.

We all know he’s a freakish talent. When he’s on, he’s unstoppable. Back-to-back Colemans don’t happen by accident. But the path to get here? It’s not just about perseverance—it’s also about freedom and agency that most players would never be granted.

Charlie hasn’t exactly lived like a monk. Many off-field activities that most footballers would never get clearance for—he’s indulged them. Those freedoms have directly contributed to setbacks. His injuries haven’t all been “bad luck”—some of them trace back to lifestyle and choices outside the club’s control.

At Carlton, that behaviour didn’t see him reined in. Instead, he was trusted to keep doing his thing while the club absorbed the consequences. Any other player—especially one without Charlie’s raw talent—would’ve been pulled into line, told to focus on footy, or quietly shown the door.

And when the injuries piled up, Charlie wasn’t treated like a standard player. He had a say in his rehab. When the club wanted one approach, he wanted another—and more often than not, he got his way. He stepped away from standard timelines, rebuilt his body on his terms, and the club gave him the latitude to do it.

That’s not how it works for most footballers. Usually, it’s “do the program or you’re out.” Charlie got trust and space

Eventually, it worked. Carlton’s patience and indulgence paid off—he returned, dominated, and has become everything we hoped he’d be.

But let’s not pretend this treatment was normal. If a lesser player had suffered repeated setback from personal choices, they’d have faced greater scrutiny. Charlie’s once-in-a-generation talent bought him freedoms that others wouldn’t even dream of.

Charlie’s game style reflects the same freedom. He plays with a laid-back, individual-first approach. He’ll pull off the spectacular, but when the contest demands a second effort or a hard chase, too often he doesn’t deliver. He’s not a gut-buster. He’s not the type to grind away for a teammate’s benefit.


That’s been part of the package from day one: mercurial, brilliant, but not always team-first in the one-percenters. Again, it’s tolerated because he can turn a game on its head with one burst of brilliance.

Charlie Curnow is a superstar. But he’s also the beneficiary of a system that bent over backwards—not just for his recovery, but for the freedoms he took off the field that played a role in his injuries.

That gamble paid off for Carlton from 2022 through most of 2024. But let’s be honest: almost no one else would’ve been given that much rope.

The Common Thread​

Carlton bent over backwards for both Jack Silvagni and Charlie Curnow. Jack was indulged when he knocked back roles and only accepted positions on his terms. Charlie was indulged when his off-field choices contributed to injuries and when his laid-back, individual-first mindset meant he wasn’t always giving second efforts.

Both were given freedoms, patience, and agency that most AFL players would never receive. Their talent (in Charlie’s case) and surname (in Jack’s case) bought them leeway that others simply wouldn’t have had.

A better-managed football club would have struck the balance: giving both players some freedom to be themselves, but holding them accountable early, setting hard boundaries, and keeping them in line. Instead, Carlton blurred those lines and let indulgence become the norm.

Is Sydney really an option for Charlie then knowing what we know about their club culture?

Worked for Buddy but was hard trainer and would bust a gut to improve.

 

[Chemical]

I would move on from Charlie. Can't hack getting 1 million a year on a long term deal and being the face of the club for the kids. Soft and not what we are looking for.

 

[T2B_]

I'm tempted to sue Wickzki for wearing out my Like button, but I guess you take the good with the bad

 

[Coona Blues]

This is just form the outside looking in - but I reckon it’s telling that Kennedy said how much harder he’s trained at the dogs.

Yet our lot are full of factions and some are waging constant personality wars with the coaching staff.

Like if you walk into the Dogs and they are all training their arses off - to a standard higher than you’re used to - then you’re not going to be the one player who questions it. You’ll jump on board and be part of that culture.

We don’t seem to have that cohesive investment.

Loving the diminishing number of conditional players on the list and the increasing number of childhood Blues and absolutely heart and soul types committed to the cause.

In 12 months time our defence will have Jacob Weitering joined by Harry O’Farrell, Harry Dean, Lachie Cowan. Matt Carroll and Ollie Hollands, all who have grown up as Blues supporters. They are not alone in the playing group, but this is a massive leg up around commitment and ownership.

 

[Dramoth]

Jacob Blights name has come up as a potential target.

Now that would be interesting. Taken in the 2024 MSD, it sounds like he got an 18 month contract.

 

[Bluebag13]

I've lost a lot of confidence in my straight up writing so when I write something that I feel is important to me or I feel can be easily misread I will run it through ChatGPT and work with it to tighten up the language, etc. The thoughts are definitely mine.

Totally get it, I do the same sometimes as well. It is a lot easier thats for sure

 

[Treesloth]

Loving the diminishing number of conditional players on the list and the increasing number of childhood Blues and absolutely heart and soul types committed to the cause.

In 12 months time our defence will have Jacob Weitering joined by Harry O’Farrell, Harry Dean, Lachie Cowan. Matt Carroll and Ollie Hollands, all who have grown up as Blues supporters. They are not alone in the playing group, but this is a massive leg up around commitment and ownership.

100 per cent.

And keep thinking about how the likes of Collingwood (Mihocek, McStay), Lions (Morris - admittedly very good and Hipwood) and Sydney in recent years (Amartey and McLean) remain very competitive despite not having genuine star key forwards.

This gives me hope that if we lose Charlie but pick up the right role players/ball users then it might actually be a net gain for the club.

Again - to quote Moneyball - it opens up all sorts of interesting possibilities.

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

As much as I loved MK, I doubt he would have helped us much at all this season. Our Midfield was too slow as it was and when it was all on the line Freo smashed the Dogs for outside run. Dogs looked good against the bottom sides who they thrashed but couldn't beat top 8 sides and that is why they are not playing finals.

Agree that MK would not have helped our midfield much. But, with the absence of Lij and H for much of the season, his presence in the

forward line would have been impactful imo.

 

[Blue and Silver]

I think that it would be great if we could keep Charlie and he comes back into the fold.

I think that this is the most likely outcome.

But I also think that it's important that the club put its foot down about standards and what is expected of high paid players.

Charlie has had a very up and down career, and a not insignificant part of the responsibility for that is his own.

 

[Wickzki]

Is Sydney really an option for Charlie then knowing what we know about their club culture?

Worked for Buddy but was hard trainer and would bust a gut to improve.

It's amazing how different players approach/behaviour becomes when they get to new clubs. The Swans have done it before and would be banking on it.

 

[carlton_99]

Gettable reporting a few Carlton related things:

• JSOS leaning towards Saints on a deal worth upwards of 4M over 5 years. Cal has it at 800K-850K/year. Thinks we would get Band 2 compensation (end of first round pick) rather than Band 1.
• Carlton have shown interested in Rosas as well as a number of other clubs but Richmond and Sydney lead the race.
• Nothing really new on Curnow but Cal thinks with 6 weeks left to trade deadline plenty can happen and Carlton could still relent on their position. Did also say that Carlton would need to look like winners if they were to trade him.
• Reeves looking like extending at Hawks but has Reidy coming to Carlton.
• Nothing concrete but Cal raised the possibility of us potentially making a play for Treloar
• Cal intrigued by Motlop situation who remains un-signed. Contract talks had been going on for a bit but still no decision on his future.
• Carlton have also shown interest in Flanders as well as a few other clubs but they aren't sure if he will stay or leave and also what club he would go to if he left.

 

[Wickzki]

This is just form the outside looking in - but I reckon it’s telling that Kennedy said how much harder he’s trained at the dogs.

Yet our lot are full of factions and some are waging constant personality wars with the coaching staff.

Like if you walk into the Dogs and they are all training their arses off - to a standard higher than you’re used to - then you’re not going to be the one player who questions it. You’ll jump on board and be part of that culture.

We don’t seem to have that cohesive investment.

As an aside... We heard how much disharmony was at the Dogs last year. Then they traded out the likes of Caleb Daniel, Macrae, etc.

I'm sure they are trained better at the Dogs. However, it doesn't mean that their situation is perfect.

This point particularly resonates, when we were going through the rebuild we obviously identified certain personality types to come in to build the culture and camaraderie.

Personally, I was excited by this because we'd seen a similar model at GWS (albiet with greater draft concessions) but they were a tight-knit group who were growing up together and destined for success. In some ways both teams followed a similar pathway where there was plenty of talent but they didn't know how to play as a team.

Kingsley's done a remarkable job turning it around as quickly as has done.

It also helps when you don't blow a half-decade's worth of drafts. Not only did GWS have all of those concessions but when they were trading back into drafts they've hit more often than they've missed. 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020, 2021 drafts have given us not much of anything.

Perhaps if we'd gotten those drafts right things would be different as they've proven to be at GWS.
(To criticize my own self a little here) It's easy to identify the culture issues at a club that has gone backwards like we have. They're often masked over significantly at clubs that are performing better like GWS. For example, it turned out that Hawthorn had a boatload of cultural issues at their peak and it only really came to light after they went backwards.

Wick, you have a family connection who used to be at the club. They have their pov.
You have yours.
What we get, is opinion coloured with opinion overlayed on 'facts'.
And adjectives added to events.

I'll get back to the rest of your post after my medical appointment.

However, oo be clear, almost none of my information comes from the relative I had at the club. Lots of people associated with him (such as former teammates, etc.) but not directly from him.