List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[gringo2011]

Cats are in a flag window. IMO they'll part with a first for Marshall no worries.

It's a horrible draft too. Doubt that they'd be upset losing pick in the 20s for him.

 

[phantom13]

Being a crusted on Saints member/supporter for so long has moulded my loyalties to player/s I perceive as quality. Plus I hate losing decent players, but it is a very fluid industry now.

After giving the Windhager situation more thought, as much as I hate the idea of losing him because of $$$ or internal ratings. I guess we have to accept the club will make it work.

Trust is not something that comes easy when considering our history of recruiting, but apart from Battle I think SOS & the club have pulled the right levers in the past few years. Im still hoping we dont lose Windhager or Marshall, but I guess we have to trust the club will turn the trades into players of more long term value to the list.

The above shouldnt prevent people giving opinions on player movement eg I really dont rate Aleer and believe Ryan is cooked. But again hope the club know what they are doing.

Rate this and tend to agree.

The current admin clearly has a plan and is implementing and executing, it doesnt feel haphazard (albeit some supporters do seem to be getting distracted by shiny new toys IMO).

If we manage to get all the targets and only lose Roma and Windy (especially if Windy becomes C-Mac) then its hard to argue they havent improved us.

The cultural stuff is a bit unknown, we all speculate but for all we know Windy being in contract dispute or whatever might be pissing more players off than we know. The bubble at footy clubs is real and theyll move on.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m wondering if there is a world where we take multiple first rounders to the draft.

That would be the most confused plan ever. Chasing ready made talent to top up while letting ready made talent walk out, then going back to the draft.

It looks very Lethlean.

 

[phantom13]

I’m wondering if there is a world where we take multiple first rounders to the draft.

Id happily bail on the draft and just get Fincher and maybe Voss at this point.

If we can retain a first and take a flyer on Mini Pou even better but as it stands we are bringing in TDK, Ryan, JSOS and then maybe Flanders and C-Mac, it seems were going win now and this years draft wont help that.

 

[gringo2011]

Would Adrian Cole (last years NGA) do any worse than Aleer? He’s cost a lot less too! Very weird choice to pursue Aleer. Hope I’m wrong. Can’t see him offering any offensive capability, which was the knock on Cole.

Looks in direct competition with Tauru too.

 

[CanadianSaint]

I don't think so. Windhager is probably a bit blue collar. CMac a bit vanilla. Probably just a younger player so maybe more ceiling?

To me the only way it makes sense is to save money and picks to get Walsh or Merrett. I think that it's absolutely stupid for the fabric of the club even. You don't mess around with culture. Especially bringing in a bulk players from a poor culture.

A good point Gringo... If he is vanilla there is no point. And I like the point about culture, its underrated in football. Its the Cats strength...

 

[phantom13]

Looks in direct competition with Tauru too.

We do seem to be doing that a bit TBH.

I cant see how Aleer, JSOS, Wilkie, Tauru all play in the same backline (thats before you add in one of Howard and Camma).

Flanders, Windy, C-Mac on top of our midfield depth.

Ryan, Collard, Butler, Higgins (alot less so than the above given Collard is still developing and Butler might be done).

Roma/TDK

Aleer/JSOS and Flanders/C-Mac are one or the other for me (noting Flanders/C-Mac can become both if Windy goes) but we do seem to be targeting alot of double ups, do wonder what happens to some of the kids who fall further back in the order if it happens, Heath bailed, others would have to consider it.

 

[stavro#4]

That would be the most confused plan ever. Chasing ready made talent to top up while letting ready made talent walk out, then going back to the draft.

It looks very Lethlean.

Id happily bail on the draft and just get Fincher and maybe Voss at this point.

If we can retain a first and take a flyer on Mini Pou even better but as it stands we are bringing in TDK, Ryan, JSOS and then maybe Flanders and C-Mac, it seems were going win now and this years draft wont help that.

Was pure speculation if I’m honest.

If Ro and Windy leave.

Best case scenario would be turning them into Cmac and Flanders and we retain 7.

But there would be a world we maybe don’t land both and both of our guys leave - which should be 2-3 firsts.

 

[Klaatu]

Until Windhager nominates a club or states he's leaving it is all pure speculation with no bases apart from media chit chat.

As far as Ro is concerned we have the upper hand no matter what he decides & probably won't nominate Geelong until after their finals i still say he stays.

 

[bennymc7]

Fine but the club is held to account on the list that they have built. This has to get results and you can't come back next year and make the same excuses for them. They can't cry about not getting enough handouts when they can't even hold on to their own players.

Apples and oranges gringo

 

[bennymc7]

On current performance (over a season) none of those guys is giving Windys output. On potential maybe but this is the Battle thing again where we think we can cover.

In reality if he goes we need a ready made replacement and I suspect anyone we get for Windy is likely a downgrade.

The C-Mac/Windy/Trac scenario would be best case and C-Mac is still not at Windys numbers in any capacity.

We all whack him but gringo2011 s whole thing about moving guys out for sideways changes looks apt here.

I get that they aren't at his production just yet.. but all could be, and at much less hit to the cap.

 

[The Punter]

Fine but the club is held to account on the list that they have built. This has to get results and you can't come back next year and make the same excuses for them. They can't cry about not getting enough handouts when they can't even hold on to their own players.

Getting 7th pick in the draft when you finish 7th-bottom is not a handout.

And if our financial equalisation payment is a handout, so is getting blockbusters at the MCG as a right.

If you get a priority pick, that's a handout because you have to beg the league to get one.

 

[BucketsandBanger]

The only move in the offing that I am not a fan of at all is Flanders. Understand the draft isn't strong and is a mess but don't see anything but a B grader with no elite attributes in Flanders, and a type we have a lot of already in MaCrae, Steele, Garcia, Boxhall etc. Would much rather keep Windy if there is a choice of the two ( I know we are trying to keep Windy.)

Love the overall strategy of using free agency and the flyers on Ryan and even Aleer as they will cost nothing from a draft capital perspective. The AFL stuffed up free agency so much when it was introduced that people don't know what to make of us at the moment. It is supposed to be bad teams paying above market to get in players, star players taking unders to go to contenders is the system NOT working.

Getting in free agents and cheap options whilst not compromising drafting in the 1st round is a GREAT strategy. Flanders is meh.

 

[Red White Black]

I personally just don't see a world where NAS and Owens resign and Windy leaves to some bottom feeder club for a few extra bucks

I'm very confident he'll stay with his mates and this is all posturing

 

[stavro#4]

Looks in direct competition with Tauru too.

We do seem to be doing that a bit TBH.

I cant see how Aleer, JSOS, Wilkie, Tauru all play in the same backline (thats before you add in one of Howard and Camma).

Flanders, Windy, C-Mac on top of our midfield depth.

Ryan, Collard, Butler, Higgins (alot less so than the above given Collard is still developing and Butler might be done).

Roma/TDK

Aleer/JSOS and Flanders/C-Mac are one or the other for me (noting Flanders/C-Mac can become both if Windy goes) but we do seem to be targeting alot of double ups, do wonder what happens to some of the kids who fall further back in the order if it happens, Heath bailed, others would have to consider it.

I’d say the acquisition of talls and even Flyin Ryan as he is an incredible overhead mark. Play into what Cal Twomey has written this morning.

I’ve mentioned it a few times. Specifically after the Carlton defeat as they murdered us on intercept and just aerially in general.

“Champion Data's stats showed teams scored from 42 per cent of inside 50s on the weekend, down from the average of 45 per cent this year, highlighting the defensive impact of those intercept players.

That number alone (three per cent down) doesn't seem like much, but it would drop a team from sixth to 15th for the season, so the discrepancy is real. Only two rounds this season were lower on average.”



As a side, we improved our clearance numbers and just general midfield numbers. But we got very little from hit outs to advantage and our ball use hurt us.

It seems we would be addressing those 3 items.

 

[Mat Mann]

Fine but the club is held to account on the list that they have built. This has to get results and you can't come back next year and make the same excuses for them. They can't cry about not getting enough handouts when they can't even hold on to their own players.

Isn't that exactly what the (GCS) handouts were for

not the academies, the 3 1st round picks, expanded list size and the NT Academy zone

 

[bergholt]

Ignore the stupid comparison Morris made and just enjoy listening to Hird & Bartel spit facts

2013 we brought in:

• a 14 game 21 year old
• a 26 game 24 year old
• a 9 game 20 year old
• a 56 game 22 year old
• a 32 game 21 year old

Didn't work, sure, but it's not exactly stocking up on established players.

 

[stavro#4]

Fine but the club is held to account on the list that they have built. This has to get results and you can't come back next year and make the same excuses for them. They can't cry about not getting enough handouts when they can't even hold on to their own players.

What hand outs have we received?

 

[_Maximus_12]

I appreciate the sentiment that we’ve overpaid TDK but reality is he will be our number one ruckman for the majority of, it not, all of his contract.

JSOS will hold down CHB on $800k p.a.

Windy’s role is not set in stone. Is he a tagger? A wingman or a flanker? Or is he a genuine mid. Obviously other clubs will put more compelling offers to him than us to pull him away from the club but the last thing we want is to pay someone $800-$900k who then finds themselves on the periphery. If Boxshall, Nas, Hugo, Hall and Pou all go past him as stoppage mids, then we’re paying a lot for a role player who gets thrown around.

I would be happy to pay Windy the money he is asking IF he had proven that he can be a consistent starting stoppage midfielder. He could be there in 12 months time but the appeal of other clubs paying him the money he wants without proving he is capable of being that player yet means he might not be a St Kilda player beyond 2025.

 

[The Punter]

2013 we brought in:

• a 14 game 21 year old
• a 26 game 24 year old
• a 9 game 20 year old
• a 56 game 22 year old
• a 32 game 21 year old

Didn't work, sure, but it's not exactly stocking up on established players.

Bruce, Delaney, Weller, Longer and... I'm missing one

 

[bergholt]

Bruce, Delaney, Weller, Longer and... I'm missing one

Savage

 

[_Maximus_12]

Fine but the club is held to account on the list that they have built. This has to get results and you can't come back next year and make the same excuses for them. They can't cry about not getting enough handouts when they can't even hold on to their own players.

This is a bullshit narrative mate. If the club wanted to retain Windhager at any cost, they would. Reality is, we don’t agree with his asking price at this point.

Ps we’ve had **** all handouts since 2001-2003.

 

[stavro#4]

Ignore the stupid comparison Morris made and just enjoy listening to Hird & Bartel spit facts

In 2000, we brought in 5 mature players between the ages of 24-25.

• Capuano (mid season delisting 3 years later)
• Lawrence (talented, body failed him and attitude was poor. Gone 3 years later)
• Callaghan ( Talented, injury prone. Gone 3 years later)

And then… Fraser Gehrig and Aaron Hamill


We got a superstar.
And a gun who became captain and a culture setter before injuries robbed him.

I’d say 3 seasons from the other 3 whilst the kids developed behind them is a good outcome aswell.

TDK, JSOS, Aleer, Ryan, Flander?, Cmac?

You get a superstar out of that or 2 high level players and the others hang around for 3-4 seasons.

It’s a win.

Howard Butler Hill Jones are all on the list 5 seasons later. Ryder was immense when fit and playing.

It was a win. What failed was Billings Coffield Clark Dunstan Paton Gresham Long Dmac etc just never came on.

Billings Gresham the big 2. Should have become A graders - is what ruined that build.

Also lost Roberton at his peak as an AA40 member.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yeah but that's not normal right.

They actually went backwards.

Josh Kelly is nothing amazing any more either.
Aish up and down.
Bulldogs really did find the diamond in the rough for that draft.

 

[Yawkey way]

So TDK & Flanders for Marshall is good ... tick .... yes we have splurged but its money we had to use
If we lose Windy ... we will get something in return .... you forgot to mention this

Silvagni ... you said a win

Ryan ... you said a win

Aleer .... 50/50

So all good so far .... mostly wins everywhere incl a pick for Windy

But then you say ... the needle wont move

So are we winning? .... or losing?

Cause you seem to say we have done well ... but then say we havent

The wins are relatively minor on the field and cost us plenty in cap and flexability moving forward so it’s questionable.

Just as an example TDK + Flanders isn’t a win of any real significance over Marshall + Windhager and it’s got to be a dollar loss of $1 million plus. The kicker is what do we do with the Windhager pick ?, that’s what will determine the outcome of that exercise and if we’re using it on a trade we’re now down $1.8 million at least.

Just look at how much we improve on the field. Silvagni I like that’s a win, Ryan over a fit butler not much imo, Aleer nothing in the short term.

Again it’s all about part two or all we’ve done is make noise. If part two are just B graders or worse like CMac currently is then we’ve spent a lot of money to improve slightly. A slight improvement won’t get us another 5 or 6 wins which we’d need to make finals.

I’m just pondering what we’d look like with a fit team if we’d stopped at TDK, Silvagni and Ryan then added a mid using pick 7. Marshall stays, Windhager stays, Steele stays. We could also have taken pick 7 to the draft and picked up Fincher with later picks.

Anyway you tell me what you think of it all. I think there’s plenty to to play out and some genuine concerns about what we do from here.

Also I definitely don’t see Windhager leaving as a win, far from it.