Should Carlton be allowed to play home games at Princes Park?

[Whats a Battle]

No expert on this one but Melbourne has seemed to need a 25k high quality venue for at least 20 years now, it surely happens eventually and would be a worthy addition to the city?

Whether thats Princes Park or not I am not sure.

Re. Parking - Venues aren't built for parking these days - look at Perth Stadium - even in a city with much less traffic it's all about encouraging people to not drive anywhere near the stadium - the fact that PP isn't set up for parking now is probably seen as a positive but I assume public transport access would need a big update?

Princes Park is ideally located. It's far enough out of the CBD to not feel like "Melbourne CBD Generic Venue #3", but it's still literally walking distance from the CBD. The new Metro Tunnel will have Parkville station right beside it, not to mention easy tram access as well. And yes, parking isn't good, but it's no worse than the existing two venues.

I find it odd that people are moaning about parking now, when Melbourne hasn't had a venue set up for parking since Waverley Park and people still bitch endlessly about that to this very day.

I've wanted to see this happen for years, problem is on one hand I think it's very underestimated by alot of people just how much the average fan hates Marvel stadium, and after a quarter of a century it's pretty obvious that's not going to change, but on the other hand if the league hasnt looked at doing anything with Ppark in that same amount of time, they arent going to randomly decide to do it.

All the problems standing in the way could be dealt with if AFL house had any interest in doing it, we all know they are like the mafia when it involves something they want. Going to the AFLW grand final a few years ago reminded me of what a crying shame it is that we have a 'close but no cigar' alternative Melbourne venue just sitting there in the city.

Marvel Stadium is awful. It was built wrong to begin with, it was designed to squeeze as much revenue from its tenant clubs as possible, and Wayne Jackson and co tried some very underhanded tricks to get clubs to move there in the first place.

But probably the worst thing about it is that it isn't a proper open air stadium. The atmosphere is literally not there, and that can't be changed without a complete rebuild. Looking at proper open air stadia like the Adelaide Oval - and even Engie which looked impressive on TV on Saturday - and it just looks like such a missed opportunity.

Perhaps the most baffling thing is why we even got it in the first place. The major complaint against Waverley was the sepia videoboard and the seats. Why not just upgrade the videoboard and put plastic buckets in? In your own life, would you sell your home that you own outright to rent somewhere, even if that somewhere was newer and closer to the city? No, that would be baffling, but that's pretty much what the AFL did.

 

[NetworkNerd]

Princes Park is ideally located. It's far enough out of the CBD to not feel like "Melbourne CBD Generic Venue #3", but it's still literally walking distance from the CBD. The new Metro Tunnel will have Parkville station right beside it, not to mention easy tram access as well. And yes, parking isn't good, but it's no worse than the existing two venues.

I find it odd that people are moaning about parking now, when Melbourne hasn't had a venue set up for parking since Waverley Park and people still bitch endlessly about that to this very day.


Marvel Stadium is awful. It was built wrong to begin with, it was designed to squeeze as much revenue from its tenant clubs as possible, and Wayne Jackson and co tried some very underhanded tricks to get clubs to move there in the first place.

But probably the worst thing about it is that it isn't a proper open air stadium. The atmosphere is literally not there, and that can't be changed without a complete rebuild. Looking at proper open air stadia like the Adelaide Oval - and even Engie which looked impressive on TV on Saturday - and it just looks like such a missed opportunity.

Perhaps the most baffling thing is why we even got it in the first place. The major complaint against Waverley was the sepia videoboard and the seats. Why not just upgrade the videoboard and put plastic buckets in? In your own life, would you sell your home that you own outright to rent somewhere, even if that somewhere was newer and closer to the city? No, that would be baffling, but that's pretty much what the AFL did.

Royal Park station will still be the closest.. but hardly anyone uses the upfield line. Parkville + Tram/Walk would be the way to go

 

[Whats a Battle]

Royal Park station will still be the closest.. but hardly anyone uses the upfield line. Parkville + Tram/Walk would be the way to go

Parkville station is still what I would consider walking distance. How many times have we done the walk from the G to Flinders?

 

[Altum Volantes]

Princes Park is ideally located. It's far enough out of the CBD to not feel like "Melbourne CBD Generic Venue #3", but it's still literally walking distance from the CBD. The new Metro Tunnel will have Parkville station right beside it, not to mention easy tram access as well. And yes, parking isn't good, but it's no worse than the existing two venues.

I find it odd that people are moaning about parking now, when Melbourne hasn't had a venue set up for parking since Waverley Park and people still bitch endlessly about that to this very day.


Marvel Stadium is awful. It was built wrong to begin with, it was designed to squeeze as much revenue from its tenant clubs as possible, and Wayne Jackson and co tried some very underhanded tricks to get clubs to move there in the first place.

But probably the worst thing about it is that it isn't a proper open air stadium. The atmosphere is literally not there, and that can't be changed without a complete rebuild. Looking at proper open air stadia like the Adelaide Oval - and even Engie which looked impressive on TV on Saturday - and it just looks like such a missed opportunity.

Perhaps the most baffling thing is why we even got it in the first place. The major complaint against Waverley was the sepia videoboard and the seats. Why not just upgrade the videoboard and put plastic buckets in? In your own life, would you sell your home that you own outright to rent somewhere, even if that somewhere was newer and closer to the city? No, that would be baffling, but that's pretty much what the AFL did.

Interesting read! Thanks for the background.

The parking thing is interesting I think - i had always assumed Melbourne's main footy culture was public transport to the footy. Surely a place with no parking options would be ideal to embrace that.

Parking means driving, driving means more impact on the roads, the local community and the environment (if thats your thing) - you don't establish (or re-establish) major venues in 2025 with the view of it needing to be easily accessible from drivers. It just wouldn't get the public and government support required surely.

You integrate or adjust the existing Public Transport network ala Perth and basically say to people 'going to the footy? - this is how you get there - and no, you aren't driving sorry, no parking.'

 

[HairyO]

If they upgraded its capacity to 50,000

Do they get that many at Docklands when playing interstate teams?

 

[Whats a Battle]

Interesting read! Thanks for the background.

The parking thing is interesting I think - i had always assumed Melbourne's main footy culture was public transport to the footy. Surely a place with no parking options would be ideal to embrace that.

Parking means driving, driving means more impact on the roads, the local community and the environment (if thats your thing) - you don't establish (or re-establish) major venues in 2025 with the view of it needing to be easily accessible from drivers. It just wouldn't get the public and government support required surely.

You integrate or adjust the existing Public Transport network ala Perth and basically say to people 'going to the footy? - this is how you get there - and no, you aren't driving sorry, no parking.'

I don't think I've ever driven to the G to watch the footy. I did it once for the Big Bash T20.

Melbourne culture is train to the CBD, footy or not. It's just too much of a pain to drive into the CBD and surrounds, at least the train is reliable and you don't have to find parking. Exorbitant parking fees (if you do find parking at all) mean that you're paying less anyway.

 

[mike14]

A few issues with this:

The ground is owned by the City of Melbourne - who would pay the multi millions of dollars required to bring the ground up to current standards?

The local community (suburbs of Princes Hill, North Carlton, Parkville) would fight any new development which has the potential to bring thousands of fans to their area on a regular basis. They are a very active and experienced community in terms of fighting off development. They also carry a lot of weight at Council and would lobby local councillors, who would cave. Take them on at your peril.

There is very limited public parking available at or around the ground. That can’t be changed or improved. It’s mostly residents’ parking and Council won’t take that away from them.

The whole of Princes Park is heritage listed (park around Ikon Park). That wouldn’t stop a development of Ikon, but would put considerable constraints on it.

This was interesting to read; as a resident of Parkville I certainly don't feel like my voice gets anywhere with council, and i haven't met any other locals who feel differently. The general feeling seems to be that we are neglected while council focus is on CBD businesses and tourist opportunities. Obviously someone out there is getting their message through though...

I can't imagine the AFL would go back to Ikon, but there was talk of upgrading/changing the zoo parking, so they could look to factor football parking in to that if it was ever on the table.
It is only a 1km walk from Royal Park station, and you can use the underpass to avoid crossing Royal Parade

 

[Vicky Park]

This was interesting to read; as a resident of Parkville I certainly don't feel like my voice gets anywhere with council, and i haven't met any other locals who feel differently. The general feeling seems to be that we are neglected while council focus is on CBD businesses and tourist opportunities. Obviously someone out there is getting their message through though...

I can't imagine the AFL would go back to Ikon, but there was talk of upgrading/changing the zoo parking, so they could look to factor football parking in to that if it was ever on the table.
It is only a 1km walk from Royal Park station, and you can use the underpass to avoid crossing Royal Parade

I’m also a resident of the area, and I’ve frequently found myself arguing against local community groups including the Parkville Association. So I’m aware of their influence. Different experiences I suppose.

The zoo parking is extensive but is often near to capacity, especially during the day on weekends. The new Royal Park Master Plan addresses parking - I don’t think it proposes extending it, but I’d have to read again to be clear.

 

[Bostonian]

The ground holds 14k. Too small.

Once held 62,000.

 

[kickazz]

Would be great to have games there again. Used to live very close and would often pop in to watch the last quarter for free. A smaller ground, would add to the variety of tactics required in the coaches' toolboxes.

What do people hate most about Docklands? I get that the surface is not great and they botched the aspect (n/s/e/w) meaning the roof is never open. But otherwise its pretty good, there's hardly a bad seat and it is easy to get to via PT. Perhaps the immediate area is a little too concrete jungly.

But yes Princes Park holds many a great memory for me. If they played games there again I'd go for sure.

 

[StillAtLarge]

It is only a 1km walk from Royal Park station, and you can use the underpass to avoid crossing Royal Parade

1km is quite a long way if the weather is poor or you're elderly and/or have a disability.
Not sure how that royal pde tram line rates on the disability accessible scale either

 

[hampton]

Upgrade it to 20k and play a couple games a year there against low drawing sides. The atmosphere would be unreal.

Not sure parking upgrade is super necessary with nearby public transport.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Question… why the heck would they want to play there??? It’s a dump

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Makes sense.... if Carlton are joining the VFL.

 

[Black Haze]

In theory they could if they wanted to but their membership base has outgrown it.
Not to mention the heroes stand and especially the Gardiner stand would need to be renovated. It looks like it's about to fall down.

A few renovations would bring Princes Park up to scratch in comparison to the main AFL venues, and Carlton playing games there would give them access to a clean stadium deal similar to what Geelong enjoy at Kardinia Park.

Carlton would get to keep more money from gate takings than they do from playing at MCG and Docklands.

 

[deck]

The new Metro Tunnel will have Parkville station right beside it

No it won't. Royal Park station is way closer and Flemington Bridge station might be just as close or closer.

 

[btdg]

Unfortunately, the death warrant for PP was signed when the AFL put a gun to Carlton's head and forced us to move to Docklands. A very sorry affair all round that crippled the club (to the extent it hasn't recovered), but at least allowed the AFL to save face on its disastrous stadium.

Most Carlton supporters moved on - ground rationalisation did make sense (even if we were locked into an atrocious deal and still face the worst home ground disadvantage of any team in the league), but it was pretty frustrating to see the AFL do a complete 180 on suburban grounds 10 years later, supporting Geelong to rebuild a ground in far worse state than PP, then allowing Gold Coast and GWS to play on grounds that barely belong in the VFL.

I do think Carlton should be allowed a legacy match or two each year - perhaps if we go into a bit of a spiral we can ask for an annual game there. In the short term, that would be for 'tradition' but something that could at least test the waters for a longer term redevelopment.

That said, while the new train line solves some of the logistics, I don't see the local community/council getting on board with everything else needed to make it work.

 

[Shipping Report]

It’s not walking distance from the CBD. The average human is a slob now, I work in the city and people get a tram three blocks to meetings. It’s a good two hour jaunt from Flinders, you’re basically walking to Brunswick.

Aside from Carlton and their prick hierarchy self sabotaging and denying themselves a Geelong like financial and sporting advantage, they’ve now double downed and almost internationally made it impossible to make viable. They bulldozed the Heatley Stand to put up a gym and admin base… right along the boundary?

The joint is entirely ****ed now, it had some real charm up until the 2010s but I imagine the Legends Stand barely passes O&HS standards. If anyone wants to see what Subiaco Oval’s most modern bits looked like, take a walk through there now.

The future is a stadium at Gosch’s Paddock integrated into a major Richmond Station rebuild with underground, ground level, and overpass accesses and links to that new stadium, the MCG, tennis centre, and AAMI along with Swan Street. It’s been heavily insinuated by just about everyone. 60,000, ‘open roof,’ built into the landscape.

I imagine Docklands will be done, both as a stadium and invigoration project.

 

[JackFlash]

It's a bit late now, it should never have been closed completely. What is the current capacity? It would have to hold at least 20-25k to play matches there again and then it could only be games against interstate teams. Perhaps North could use it too? North V Suns, Freo, Giants , same with games against the Blues?

 

[emuboy]

I always liked Princes Park and was sorry when it was discontinued as an AFL venue.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Upgrade it to 20k and play a couple games a year there against low drawing sides. The atmosphere would be unreal.

Not sure parking upgrade is super necessary with nearby public transport.

Parking can most certainly be upgraded:

 

[Outtatym]

I was thinking North Melbourne should play one or 2 home games up there per year considering it's in the northern suburbs.

Been there done that in the late 90's/2000's. It's a dump with no where to park. Rather play the small non Vic clubs at Arden Street and stand in the elements.

The renos they did essentially killed any idea of AFL footy playing there - mens at least

 

[mcgarnacle]

Unfortunately, it won't be an AFL venue at its current capacity. The western stands have been demolished since the last time Carlton played an AFL match there. Replaced by Carlton's new admin and training centre.

Some of my first memories of AFL footy were watching the good Carlton teams of the 90s play there on tele. A game v West Coast where Kouta absolutely starred is still prominent.

There is no doubt the AFL has lost a bit of its tribalism with all Melbourne clubs moving their home games to the city. I assume, as in Sydney, local councils own most of the previous club's home grounds. And even if the club does own it, such as St Kilda, the common issue is funding to improve them for game day.

 

[WillHayward]

It's no secret that Carlton have struggled on field since Princes Park was decommissioned as an AFL venue. If grounds such as Marrara Oval, Traeger Park, Norwood Oval, Hands Oval and Cazalys Stadium are deemed fit for AFL purpose, then I don't see why Carlton shouldn't be able to play games at Princes Park.

What are your thoughts?

I think they should make princess park a fortress in both the VFL and the AFLW.

I don't think they should remain in the AFL.

 

[VinnieB]

Not even that. 40,000 seats would be good. Even 30,000 to 35,000 seat capacity would be adequate.

I was thinking North Melbourne should play one or 2 home games up there per year considering it's in the northern suburbs.

Saints fans are wanting to have Moorabbin oval to be an AFL standard ground that holds 30,000 seats with cheap rent

That would be great for the North Carlton Roos.