Are we ruthless enough?

[catters05]

No, Mullin was get pushed by 4 lions players not 1 Cats player to lend him a hand in 2nd Q.

Was hard to watch that.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Absolutely not. Hard truth

Many won't want to hear this but a team like Hawthorn with an unsociable mentality probably find a way to get it done yesterday

No chance.

 

[allrighty]

It's not about having enforcers, but having a group of guys who back each other, look after each other and bully the opposition with our attack on the ball and the player with it.
When you see half a dozen lions go to one of our young players and push and shove him around while talking shit after they've made a mistake, or had a mark taken by their opponent (their fault or not), and NOT ONE Cats player go to defend them, then there's genuine concerns on our mental strength and ruthlessness to the contest. Cannot be allowed to be bullied by teams like we did yesterday, it will only result in failure.

I think that probably sums the intent of your OP better IMO, and is totally correct

 

[Commando]

No chance.

Pies did.. probably because Ashcroft was out

 

[Strange Cat]

No chance.

Why are you here ? Genuine question what do opposition supporters think they are contributing to after a Grand final loss?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I dont see it as ruthless enough... I see it as we have some hefty deficiencies in terms of player capabilities that has left us very vulnerable all season and exposed when sides shut down our outside run.

If the game is played in a phone booth, we will generally come out second best.

Our best players and play makers are endurance outside runners such as smith, holmes, dempsey, blicavs, miers, close, stengle, humphries, even roaming cameron is not a pack forward..

If a side clamps down hard and decides to say “ we are going to turn this into a game played in a phone booth with 36 players all within 5-70m of the ball” and whoever wins the slog and ground ball and can get those 3-4-5 contested wins then break it over the back to smalls such as the grand final will ultimately win that style of game.

It becomes 3-4-5-6 hard in and under wins before you can break it over the back to smalls in space.

Issue is we dont have the players who can go toe to toe with a game plan like this.

Atkins and a grandpa dangerfield are all we have.. And atkins is a good role playing B grader.

We need to find ways to win in various scenarios when the game is not being played fast into open space.

We are the best in the league at playing ping pong, but not wrestling on the matt...

I recall in 2007 prelim, collingwood turned it into a slog... The game wasnt played our style.. We found a way to win still.

In 09 grand final the game was entirely on st kildas terms... Fierce frontal pressure and a slog.. We adapted and dug in deep and still found a way to get over them in the last qtr.

This team needs to find a way to win when things are not working the way they prefer..

I think ability and cattle has been the main issue, we are an incredibly well coached side who papers over defficiencies.

We need to continue to bring in hard inside bodies who can also spread.


No to players like george stevens.. They are goners in todays game.

Huge tick worpell for me, and also hoprfully butters...

Improvement and a huge summer fron clark imto the middle also will be big. Same with bruhn if he returns.. Both love a fist fight on the matt

 

[Strange Cat]

Was hard to watch that.

It’s really does show that beyond Atkins and Stewart there’s no one else on the list that has a bit of mongrel

I’m not talking about belting blokes but blokes that goes in hard and flies the flag to let opposition players know they can’t push the kids around

We had that with Joel, Hawkins , Chappy, even Mooney to an extent

Absolute crickets beyond Atkins and Stewart..even Danger goes in hard at times but won’t do anything that’ll make him unlikeable to opponents

No easy fixes , Holmes, Dempsey and co don’t have those traits..none of the kids do

 

[iameviljez]

Scores were level well into the third. You just lost to a better team who beat you 3 out of 4 games in 2025 as well as the prelim in 24 to become champs a week later. Geelong is still a champion team. You can't and won't win them all.

I feel filthy, but I completely agree with you.

We just saw the usual end result of Holmes, Smith, Atkins, Mullin and O’Connor vs Neale, Dunkley, McCluggage, Ashcroft squared and Fletcher.

 

[Catman]

It's not about having enforcers, but having a group of guys who back each other, look after each other and bully the opposition with our attack on the ball and the player with it.
When you see half a dozen lions go to one of our young players and push and shove him around while talking shit after they've made a mistake, or had a mark taken by their opponent (their fault or not), and NOT ONE Cats player go to defend them, then there's genuine concerns on our mental strength and ruthlessness to the contest. Cannot be allowed to be bullied by teams like we did yesterday, it will only result in failure.

Look, I think this is more to do with the state of the game rather than any weakness in our side. And shit like that can backfire just as quickly.

Were we missing an enforcer in the first two finals? No, we let our footy do the talking.

 

[Cataholic]

Look, I think this is more to do with the state of the game rather than any weakness in our side. And shit like that can backfire just as quickly.

Were we missing an enforcer in the first two finals? No, we let our footy do the talking.

I'm with Mad_Hatter

Our footy didn't talk at all yesterday, and we didn't have the spirit or fire to play as a team.

We played like individuals.

We didn't go to work for one another, we didn't back each other, we didn't match their physicality and too often we were onlookers.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Look, I think this is more to do with the state of the game rather than any weakness in our side. And shit like that can backfire just as quickly.

Were we missing an enforcer in the first two finals? No, we let our footy do the talking.

Again, not after enforcers at all, but guys who won't stand around and watch younger team mates get bullied over and over, or then continue to get bullied at the contest over and over like the Lions did.
We DID do that in the first 2 finals. We bullied the lions ourselves around the contest, hence why we won, and we did the exact same to the Hawks which is why the centre clearances were 20-5 in our favour.
We got bullied yesterday however, badly, and nobody stood up when it was counted or stood by their team mates.
In 2022 we were super ruthless and brutal, none of it was BS enforcer type footy, simply we backed each other, looked after each other and hunted the ball and the player.
We did not do that yesterday at all.

 

[SkittleCats]

I think Scott made an interesting observation that relates to his question during the week: "we have a lot of introverts on the team", the comment was made in relation to Baz and the "colour" he has added to the group.

For one reason or another we have ended up with a team that does play with less outward aggression than say Brisbane do. We dont often see our guys behaving the way Lohamnn and Zorko do (among others) for example. Does this equal less ruthlessness? I think it's hard to say but maybe. But like any large team you have to find where things balance out with the personnel you have, players like Baz and Atkins are the foil for some of the quieter less outgoing players we have.

 

[allrighty]

I feel filthy, but I completely agree with you.

We just saw the usual end result of Holmes, Smith, Atkins, Mullin and O’Connor vs Neale, Dunkley, McCluggage, Ashcroft squared and Fletcher.

That would be one Ashcroft. You know one squared is one right?

 

[allrighty]

I think Scott made an interesting observation that relates to his question during the week: "we have a lot of introverts on the team", the comment was made in relation to Baz and the "colour" he has added to the group.

For one reason or another we have ended up with a team that does play with less outward aggression than say Brisbane do. We dont often see our guys behaving the way Lohamnn and Zorko do (among others) for example. Does this equal less ruthlessness? I think it's hard to say but maybe. But like any large team you have to find where things balance out with the personnel you have, players like Baz and Atkins are the foil for some of the quieter less outgoing players we have.

Well I could start the introvert club on here to go with the tinnitus one discussed earlier.

Introversion is not the same as aversion. As many on here know the majority of CEOs are introverts, and I suspect many very successful sportspeople are because you have to be uber focused on yourself and be comfortable in your own skin to survive. I'm an introvert and have been a CEO many times and done well at it - eventually. So introversion and inability to lead are not the same.

On field leadership though is clearly an issue for us and as I posted a bit back that we missed Stewart a lot and Jez and Danger were both injured/sore. Who else was there? Axe was overwhelmed in the guts, then who?

Also I am not sure what was going on in the coaches box. Clearly outplayed there too.

So i suppose I am agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Well I could start the introvert club on here to go with the tinnitus one discussed earlier.

Introversion is not the same as aversion. As many on here know the majority of CEOs are introverts, and I suspect many very successful sportspeople are because you have to be uber focused on yourself and be comfortable in your own skin to survive. I'm an introvert and have been a CEO many times and done well at it - eventually. So introversion and inability to lead are not the same.

On field leadership though is clearly an issue for us and as I posted a bit back that we missed Stewart a lot and Jez and Danger were both injured/sore. Who else was there? Axe was overwhelmed in the guts, then who?

Also I am not sure what was going on in the coaches box. Clearly outplayed there too.

So i suppose I am agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

I'm an introvert, I was also a maniac on the field and a bit of an arseh*le (I'd tackle to hurt, I didn't mind getting into players faces, I didn't mind a bit of biff back and forth etc).
Doesn't mean much, and like you said perhaps it's more a lack of general leadership (which could point more to a relative inexperienced group instead of some failing).

 

[Commando]

I knew that I wouldn't see it but I was telling a mate I wanted to see Neale put his knee through Andrews during the first contest!

Let him know he was in for a game not a kick in the park it turned out for him

 

[Strange Cat]

I knew that I wouldn't see it but I was telling a mate I wanted to see Neale put his knee through Andrews during the first contest!

Let him know he was in for a game not a kick in the park it turned out for him

That to me showed the difference in how much Bris wanted it , they were willing to do the niggling and in your face stuff that is unpopular

Our boys just want to be liked and respected

 

[Warhorse]

I knew that I wouldn't see it but I was telling a mate I wanted to see Neale put his knee through Andrews during the first contest!

Let him know he was in for a game not a kick in the park it turned out for him

Was to busy watching Andrews playing footy

 

[Commando]

That to me showed the difference in how much Bris wanted it , they were willing to do the niggling and in your face stuff that is unpopular

Our boys just want to be liked and respected

Yep and that's why they're wearing the medals!

 

[And_ROOS]

I'm reminded of the NZ cricket team - perennial nice-guys, always thereabouts, but rarely do they get the chocolates.

I remember Scarlett, Chapman, Mooney, and even Stevie J had a mean streak. We do need some more of it.

Look to the fella in your profile pic.

2011 GF, Jimmy Bartel takes a mark and slots it and then gives a bit, without being over the top, to Chris Dawes.

Our forwards do a bit right, when players kick goals guys like Cameron and Miers etc have huge, excitable reactions.

But we do lack players who, for lack of a better word, have a bit of mongrel. Can see it a bit with Smith, but you need a few players.

When we had Scarlo, Chappy and Mooney no one was bullying our young players.

Now its basically Smith and Stewart who can back it up, and O'Connor doesn't **** around either.

But would love to see guys like SDK and Neale get a bit of campaigner about them because they can throw their weight around.

Marshall is that type. Maybe he can teach them.

 

[Interdimensional Bigfoot]

We don't need no Zor(go for the eyes)ko. Harris Andrews

31

Harris Andrews

Age

28

Ht

200cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.8

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.6

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

151.7

2star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

3star

D

9.8

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.8

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

94.0

2star

is a nice guy but monstered Neale now the last four games. How about we gitgud.

 

[kickazz]

Yeah that unicorn that is a dead set arseh*le of a coach that can lead a team to do that sort of thing but somehow be treated like an innocent grandpa by the media. That's what Brisbane have and we don't.


I think there is something to be said by OP though - just need a couple of enforcers who wouldn't let that shit happen. Stewart is one of those, and so was Cam Guthrie.

 

[kickazz]

Starting a new thread while the autopsy thread is locked, been discussing this with a mate (whose not a Cats fan) about our want to be the nice guys, and be humble, and if that manifests by not being ruthless enough.
We always strive to be nice, to be the good guys, never rub it in opposition players when we take advantage of mistakes, never rub victories in opposition players, especially when we win finals/Grand Finals.
Now lets look at the Lions, all game, every time one of our players made a mistake that led to a mark/score half a dozen or more lions were running to that player to hit him and get into him about stuffing up, every tackle was over board and deliberate, even when the game was essentially over lions players were giving it to Cats even if they didn't make mistakes. COS has a poor fumble late in the game, game is OVER before that, results in a lions goal and a few players run 10m away from the celebration to go give him shit and a hit for it.
I look to the decision to allow the after the goal songs, that does nothing for us, our songs suck and our fans don't care/get involved, whereas the lions songs are great, the crowd get insanely hyped and behind them and the players feed on that. Why the **** would we say yes to having them, if that was a decision we could make? It's a Grand Final. Why say yes to a situation that could only advantage the opposition?!? Shoe on the other foot I have no doubt the Lions organisation would have said no way, yet it seems to want to be perceived as "nice" we allow other teams advantages that we can't afford to allow.
Now obviously this is a little short sighted, the most ruthless I've seen a team play would be the Cats in the 2022 Grand Final, absolute brutal display. But there was zero of that yesterday, perhaps we were just off, perhaps it just wasn't our day, but I want to see the club be ruthless on and off the field.
Hawks 13-15 were arseholes. Tigers 18-20 likewise. Lions currently.
I think it's time to pull out a bit of the arseh*le ourselves and become more ruthless, more unforgiving and start to hunt teams instead of playing nice.

Well Zuthrie tried to be aggressive in the QF to Rainer and look where that got him. Maybe they were all gun shy over that umpiring debacle and wanted to ensure the umps had no excuse to **** us again? Who knows.

 

[kickazz]

We don't have an enforcer, Dangerfield seems well liked as a captain but he isn't ruthless like Selwood was on the field. It's something we miss when Stewart isn't playing and a big reason I was, and still am surprised Stewy wasn't made captain after Sel retired.

Still remember a Easter Monday game where Chad Wingard started to get some centre clearances and Hawks looking good. Heard Mick Malthouse commenting on the radio "Joel Selwood went in the middle and elbowed him in the guts a at a couple of centre bounces, and Chad has done nothing since"

Now some might posit that doing that sort of thing is not right and I suppose I can see that pov. But when the oppo start it, you need people to stand up for teammates, that is non negotiable.

 

[kickazz]

It’s really does show that beyond Atkins and Stewart there’s no one else on the list that has a bit of mongrel

Cam Guthrie I'd add. He's still on the list, even if not likely to play. But when he did he was quite happy to show a bit of mongrel.