Rumour Bluemour Discussion XLI

[gbatman]

Not sure I'd say it benefits us, if we're already willing to delist & pay him out to get him away from the club then the token pick in the 60s next year is definitely not worth it. Also if he wasn't going to be there in 12 months why would we play him ahead of someone who has a future with us and in all likelihood provides more on field in the medium to long term? None of it makes sense to me.

Because we play to win, this is not junior footy, we aren't here to develop primarily and give everyone a fair go, we are here to pick our best team and win games. It's AFL, not tiddlywinks, it's the most competitive form of football.

Offloading him for nothing V offloading him for pick 60. The latter is better for us and the player. Who is also to say it will be 60s after 12 months of his best football?

He's most likely be playing ahead of a young player who is probably not quite ready, so no big deal.

It's worth considering and most definitely not the first time a club has done something like this.

 

[gbatman]

I think he can push forward at times and be a bit of a difference

Issue is with Cripps he needs to be fully fit or he can be a liability. Personally, I would try and play him 15-16 games a year with some breaks in between to stay fresh and recover from all the knocks he gets. A fully fit Cripps for 15 games is a lot better than a 80% fit Cripps for 23 games IMO. He's bull and that's it

100%. I think we need to have a sample size of games minus Cripps and with guys like Camporeale and Lord being more prominent in the middle. Very similar to how we had a small sample size of games with O'Keeffe up forward. And it looked good. If it looks good then part of our midfield rejig could involve Cripps being the one who steps aside. IMO we need to target some big name mature mids and something may have to give out of Hewett, Cerra and Cripps. I like Cripps but if we look as good without him, then all options need to be considered. I also think going forward, he needs to miss games, same as Hodge at Hawthorn.

How much really good footy has he got left in him? Part of our decisions going forward will revolve around this.

Cripps needs some elite runners in the team so he can be the token one way runner / forward runner in the team.

 

[bmaurizio]

Our coaching group consists of 10 various assistants and Voss as Senior coach, surely there’s ample expertise to be able to assist and support a young player that has temporarily serious challenges.? The human being is important.

 

[DollarsandSense]

I'm intrigued to find out or know what it is that was so bad that he did, or has done on multiple occasions. I know it's none of my business. But if it was that bad, given the trade period is complete, he'd be let go by now....... If the club were going to move him on, wouldn't they have done that by now.

Otherwise... are they trying to work something out with him....

Interesting.

 

[gbatman]

Here's a question for those that know.

Are there premiership players in teams in the last 10 years who have done worse or equivalent to whatever it was that Elijah Hollands has done?

What about Collingwood 2023? Did they carry a few Elijah Holland's types? Are we saying De Goey has not been as bad as Elijah Hollands.

If player behavior and player delistings effects the performances of the current players then these are the resilience issues Voss was talking about and it's those players who are better off let go. If player performance or attendance drops because Elijah Hollands is there then those player are weak as piss and don't belong on the list of a successful and culturally strong list. That there would be a cultural issue, not with Elijah but with those who drop. Good culture = elite level of competitiveness that is not negotiable. Good culture = resilience.

If we have a good culture at this club and the club haven't forgotten that being in the AFL is a football competition then maybe we are overreacting regarding Hollands. Maybe other clubs do better in this situation and win flags where we offload blokes and be Carlton.

 

[The Bighouse]

Post trade period it was described to me as 'not making sense as the trust was broken'. The implication was he'd used all his chances, eroded the relationship, crossed the point of no return, so to speak. Maybe one or two clubs have a go as a free hit after he's delisted, even that interest is not guaranteed.

I'd assume he's gone unless we hear otherwise.

I am all for redemption and second chances but a club doesn't tell a talented young player like him to move on unless it's serious. He has burnt some bridges and bringing him back could cause issues amongst the playing group. At a time when we are trying to improve the club and it's standards not sure we can risk it

He was on leave due to personal matters/mental health. If he’s upset the off-field police, then surely that should be under the leave period where he’s been affected by said reasons for his absence.

He’s also been involved with players socially & training not to mention he didn’t seem like an outcast to the players in the rooms post the last game of the season.

McKay was under the same type of absence under personal leave.

JUH had an absence from his club and took the absolute p155 out of the Bulldogs & AFL but is still in the system.

 

[Its an amigo!]

I am all for redemption and second chances but a club doesn't tell a talented young player like him to move on unless it's serious. He has burnt some bridges and bringing him back could cause issues amongst the playing group. At a time when we are trying to improve the club and it's standards not sure we can risk it

If this is true and it is that serious, why has he not already been delisted? Its been a week since trade period ended.

He is out there training with a bunch of other players in the Carlton squad, starting preseason early with them. It is pretty poor of the club to leave him hanging if they have already decided that there is no return.

Not something a club with a good culture does.

 

[agro]

Here's a question for those that know.

Are there premiership players in teams in the last 10 years who have done worse or equivalent to whatever it was that Elijah Hollands has done?

What about Collingwood 2023? Did they carry a few Elijah Holland's types? Are we saying De Goey has not been as bad as Elijah Hollands.

If player behavior and player delistings effects the performances of the current players then these are the resilience issues Voss was talking about and it's those players who are better off let go. If player performance or attendance drops because Elijah Hollands is there then those player are weak as piss and don't belong on the list of a successful and culturally strong list. That there would be a cultural issue, not with Elijah but with those who drop. Good culture = elite level of competitiveness that is not negotiable. Good culture = resilience.

If we have a good culture at this club and the club haven't forgotten that being in the AFL is a football competition then maybe we are overreacting regarding Hollands. Maybe other clubs do better in this situation and win flags where we offload blokes and be Carlton.

Pretty sure Steve Johnston (Geelong) burnt quite a few chances and was sent to “Coventry” by Geelong until he got his act together, ended up playing I’m a couple of premierships.

 

[katmanblue]

Here's a question for those that know.

Are there premiership players in teams in the last 10 years who have done worse or equivalent to whatever it was that Elijah Hollands has done?

What about Collingwood 2023? Did they carry a few Elijah Holland's types? Are we saying De Goey has not been as bad as Elijah Hollands.

If player behavior and player delistings effects the performances of the current players then these are the resilience issues Voss was talking about and it's those players who are better off let go. If player performance or attendance drops because Elijah Hollands is there then those player are weak as piss and don't belong on the list of a successful and culturally strong list. That there would be a cultural issue, not with Elijah but with those who drop. Good culture = elite level of competitiveness that is not negotiable. Good culture = resilience.

If we have a good culture at this club and the club haven't forgotten that being in the AFL is a football competition then maybe we are overreacting regarding Hollands. Maybe other clubs do better in this situation and win flags where we offload blokes and be Carlton.

Choco in the Sen article today re: Dusty : we knew he couldn't say within 80% of the rules...gave him some limits and let him breathe.

Article

 

[Soapy V]

Pretty sure Steve Johnston (Geelong) burnt quite a few chances and was sent to “Coventry” by Geelong until he got his act together, ended up playing I’m a couple of premierships.

apples v oranges

 

[sweethoney]

Here's a question for those that know.

Are there premiership players in teams in the last 10 years who have done worse or equivalent to whatever it was that Elijah Hollands has done?

What about Collingwood 2023? Did they carry a few Elijah Holland's types? Are we saying De Goey has not been as bad as Elijah Hollands.

If player behavior and player delistings effects the performances of the current players then these are the resilience issues Voss was talking about and it's those players who are better off let go. If player performance or attendance drops because Elijah Hollands is there then those player are weak as piss and don't belong on the list of a successful and culturally strong list. That there would be a cultural issue, not with Elijah but with those who drop. Good culture = elite level of competitiveness that is not negotiable. Good culture = resilience.

If we have a good culture at this club and the club haven't forgotten that being in the AFL is a football competition then maybe we are overreacting regarding Hollands. Maybe other clubs do better in this situation and win flags where we offload blokes and be Carlton.

Bit more than 10 years Dane swan
could look at how Melbourne storm handled cam Munster. I guess those sides are probably a lot stronger off field to handle situations like these that pop up

 

[Opium]

If this is true and it is that serious, why has he not already been delisted? Its been a week since trade period ended.

He is out there training with a bunch of other players in the Carlton squad, starting preseason early with them. It is pretty poor of the club to leave him hanging if they have already decided that there is no return.

Not something a club with a good culture does.

The culture is rotten to its core. That's the reason JSOS left. You don't let a two time coleman medallist leave with 4 years remaining on his contract to a premiership contender and take their salary dumps.
Ainsworth, Hayward and Florent are using up over 2 million of the salary cap as flankers.
The first round pick we got from Sydney this year will be swallowed up by the Dean selection. The future first picks will be late teens.
We still haven't addressed our midfield speed issue and now we've lost our best forward, Ruckman and second best defender.

Where does our improvement come from?
We have one key forward on our list and failed to get a suitable key defender.

 

[carlton_99]

The culture is rotten to its core. That's the reason JSOS left. You don't let a two time coleman medallist leave with 4 years remaining on his contract to a premiership contender and take their salary dumps.
Ainsworth, Hayward and Florent are using up over 2 million of the salary cap as flankers.
The first round pick we got from Sydney this year will be swallowed up by the Dean selection. The future first picks will be late teens.
We still haven't addressed our midfield speed issue and now we've lost our best forward, Ruckman and second best defender.

Where does our improvement come from?
We have one key forward on our list!!

In what universe is Hayward a salary dump? Seems the term has lost all meaning.

Also, the way you characterise "flankers" as if quality flankers aren't what we have been missing for years is odd.

 

[Soapy V]

Choco in the Sen article today re: Dusty : we knew he couldn't say within 80% of the rules...gave him some limits and let him breathe.

Article

Would love Choco at club. No better developer of younger players and also a great skills coach

IMO he is exactly what we need

 

[CJMB]

Because we play to win, this is not junior footy, we aren't here to develop primarily and give everyone a fair go, we are here to pick our best team and win games. It's AFL, not tiddlywinks, it's the most competitive form of football.

Offloading him for nothing V offloading him for pick 60. The latter is better for us and the player. Who is also to say it will be 60s after 12 months of his best football?

He's most likely be playing ahead of a young player who is probably not quite ready, so no big deal.

It's worth considering and most definitely not the first time a club has done something like this.

We’ll just have to see what happens. Certainly sounded like our football department does not expect him to be around.

We’ve just brought in Haywood, Ainsworth and have Williams all playing that similar role, so hardly young players not ready.

 

[Opium]

In what universe is Hayward a salary dump? Seems the term has lost all meaning.

Also, the way you characterise "flankers" as if quality flankers aren't what we have been missing for years is odd.

Sydney needed to clear these players in order to get Curnow. Florent is on massive money until 2029 and wasn't getting games this season. Why would we take this contract after what we've seen with Williams the past 5 years??

 

[agro]

apples v oranges

In terms of what they did?

 

[carlton_99]

Sydney needed to clear these players in order to get Curnow. Florent is in massive money until 2029. Why would we take this contract after what we've seen with Williams the past 5 years.

Sydney needed to include a quality player as part of any deal. We have had significant interest in Hayward and pursued him just last year as a free agent. It's not a salary dump it was a necessary part of any deal.

And Florent (touch wood) is one of the most durable players in the AFL. He just came off playing 130 games in a row for Longmire. No comparison to Williams. And no evidence he is on massive money. Cal Twomey had both him and Hayward as ~1.2M combined. Not massive money nowadays.

 

[CJMB]

The culture is rotten to its core. That's the reason JSOS left. You don't let a two time coleman medallist leave with 4 years remaining on his contract to a premiership contender and take their salary dumps.
Ainsworth, Hayward and Florent are using up over 2 million of the salary cap as flankers.
The first round pick we got from Sydney this year will be swallowed up by the Dean selection. The future first picks will be late teens.
We still haven't addressed our midfield speed issue and now we've lost our best forward, Ruckman and second best defender.

Where does our improvement come from?
We have one key forward on our list!!

You’re delusional.

And a half a season player wanting to be treated special and have the red carpet rolled out for him because of his dad and grandads contribution seems a bit suss, eh.

For what it’s worth, sounded like the only thing the club was really concerned with Charlie leaving was a jr membership hit.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Sydney needed to clear these players in order to get Curnow. Florent is on massive money until 2029 and wasn't getting games this season. Why would we take this contract after what we've seen with Williams the past 5 years??

What are Florent, Hayward and Ainsworth on per year each?

 

[Opium]

Sydney needed to include a quality player as part of any deal. We have had significant interest in Hayward and pursued him just last year as a free agent. It's not a salary dump it was a necessary part of any deal.

And Florent (touch wood) is one of the most durable players in the AFL. Pretty sure he just came off playing 130 games or something in a row. No comparison to Williams.

We're paying these players at big portion of the salary cap while we have glaring issues elsewhere.

 

[carlton_99]

We're paying these players at big portion of the salary cap while we have glaring issues elsewhere.

Once again where is the evidence he is on anything close to Williams? Cal Twomey said Sydney let go around 1.2M in salary for Hayward and Florent. That is not significant money nowadays. And run and footskills were both areas of need which these players provide. In fact, pretty sure these were the exact areas everyone on here was complaining about all year...

 

[Opium]

You’re delusional.

And a half a season player wanting to be treated special and have the red carpet rolled out for him because of his dad and grandads contribution seems a bit suss, eh.

For what it’s worth, sounded like the only thing the club was really concerned with Charlie leaving was a jr membership hit.

That's culture and leadership. Jack Silvagni is a player who wants to win at all costs. For him to jump ship confirms the club is in a massive hole and he couldn't see anything to indicate its changing anytime soon.

 

[Opium]

Trade swans 2025 and 2027 to eagles for pick 2 and an Ison pick back. Use 9 on Dean.

In what world would Westcoast do that?

 

[sweethoney]

Would love Choco at club. No better developer of younger players and also a great skills coach

IMO he is exactly what we need

His available to isn’t he? I think Melbourne let him go