Hot Topic CARLTON SUPPORTERS ONLY - Carlton fires Captain Carlton

[Gethelred]

Carlton caught up in fresh storm over club mascot

A statement has been issued and the person at the centre of the incident has been sacked.

7news.com.au

This thread is for the discussion of the sacking of a club mascot after refusing to participate in a bar mitzvah which was allegedly sending money back to the IDF.

By taking this position and labelling the act racist, the club has taken a position on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

This thread concerns a discussion of the following:

• whether it is acceptable for the club to fire someone for taking a political stance.
• whether it is a good idea for the club to have taken a public position on this issue.

This thread is not a thread in which you should partake in expressing your political beliefs concerning the conflict, nor is it somewhere in which forum rules do not apply.

Should you seek to participate in conversation related to the war, you can do so here:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack IV - Probable Case of Genocide

Continued from Part III https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack-iii.1381570/ Original Post, October 7, 2023: Israel declares state of war In response to the attacks, which appear to have caught the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) by surprise, Israel has...

www.bigfooty.com

There's also a thread on the SRP for a more robust discussion than can be permitted here:

Moved Thread - Blues mascot 'Captain Carlton' sacked after walking out of Bar Mitzvah and comments about Zionists.

Blues off to a flyer for the off season :D But surely one can criticise the actions of the IDF without being 'anti semitic' ‘Not doing this for f---ing Zios’: Captain Carlton mascot storms out of Bar Mitzvah celebration A man working as a mascot for the Carlton Football Club has stunned...

www.bigfooty.com

If you wish to participate in this thread, do so knowing that this will not be allowed to escalate beyond a point.

Thanks all!

 

[ctwenty1]

Should you wish to participate in conversation related to religious beliefs, the war and any other society, religious and political topics, TAKE IT TO THE SRP BOARD WHERE IT BELONGS:-

Society, Religion and Politics

A board for grown-ups.

www.bigfooty.com

ZERO. TOLERANCE.

Tbh Aph I'm not sure the way this has been framed is fair to the club and by extemsion the issue at hand

Have the club sacked him for his political stance or his behaviour on exit?

Have the club actual taken a public stance on the issue?

 

[sticks74]

Take politics and religion out of it, it was a kids Birthday who was a Carlton Fan FFS, if any of my employees acted that way and ruined a kids birthday they would be immediately sacked!

The club did the right thing, adios CC

 

[BluesByNature]

I don't know: I think it's pretty simple.
He negatively affected the reputation of his employer whilst engaged as a representative of the club in an official capacity. He did it intentionally: it wasn't an accident.

He knew it was a bah mitzvah. He had his chance to refuse privately to the club in advance.
If he didn't want to perform his job description of waving and doing handstands in a costume at the club's request, then he objects to his employer, and they either negotiate some sort of deal with him, get someone else to do it, or refuse the gig.
If they force him anyway, that's for HR or arbitration, to decide whether the club's insistence was valid in view of some deep-seated political beliefs, etc..

Once he agreed to go, he needed to behave like an adult. If you want to have a rant at someone who doesn't think like you do (but is not doing or promoting anything illegal), do that on your own time.

Too many people thinking that everyone else has to operate with their personal approval, and they're entitled to give everyone else a piece of their mind.

The fact he knew it was a barmitzvah is proof the guy isn't anti jewish or "racist".

They told him one thing, nekminnit he is fundraising for soldiers. I think he handled it well. Clearly had no problem with working for jewish children, just doesn't want to raise money for soldiers. Give his job back IMO, and an apology from the family that tried to put one over him

 

[ctwenty1]

The fact he knew it was a barmitzvah is proof the guy isn't anti jewish or "racist".

They told him one thing, nekminnit he is fundraising for soldiers. I think he handled it well. Clearly had no problem with working for jewish children, just doesn't want to raise money for soldiers. Give his job back IMO, and an apology from the family that tried to put one over him

history will show that neighbours live peacefully next to each other for generations and then murder each other when given the opportunity

not saying he is racist or anti-semitic, but wouldnt be assuming he isnt

 

[BlueZombie]

There is NO nuance in genocide.

And that is precisely what is taking place in the Gaza strip.

To donate money to the very soldiers who are committing that genocide would be no different to donating money to wounded N@zi soldiers during WWII, as they massacred Polish Jews in the Warsaw ghetto uprising.

Would people on here be okay with that?

I was under the impression that we still live in a country where freedom of speech is sacrosanct.

But I guess not.

Censor my comment if you will mods, but I will not remain silent when the club I've loved all my life does something despicable like this.

Captain Carlton wasn't a hero before. But He is now.

 

[Bletch]

Yeah, everyone in this situation is at fault to some degree.

It's not black and white.

As I understand it, the club books the mascot for private events as part of his employment duties. This raises important questions:

• What briefing and information does the club provide to employees before sending them to private events?
• Was the employee informed in advance about the political nature of this particular event, including that it involved fundraising for military operations in an active conflict zone?
• Does the club have policies regarding employees who may have ethical objections to participating in politically-charged events?

By booking mascot appearances at events with explicit political fundraising components, particularly related to active military conflicts, the club potentially places employees in impossible positions between their employment obligations and their personal conscience.

• Should the club be accepting bookings for private events that involve political fundraising for foreign military forces?
• If the club does accept such bookings, shouldn't employees be fully informed in advance and given the option to decline based on personal beliefs?
• What protections exist for employees who find themselves in situations that conflict with their deeply held ethical positions?

Excellent post.

To me, there's two issues. One, the Carlton employee's actions. Two, the club's actions. And it's this latter issue that I find of most concern.

As to the employee. I think he's well within rights to withdraw his labour. But if he did so in the way that is reported, that's not on, and his termination is likely valid. However, I think we've only heard one side of this story, and the report to me sounds dubious. Especially with quotes from the ADL. I'll be interested to see if in coming days the now ex-employee files a wrongful termination suit.

Which gets me to the second issue. Katmanblue's questions above need to be answered. Just how much did Carlton know about this event? It puts the club in a precarious situation, seen to be supporting the IDF in the current world circumstances. What legal ramifications might there be? How will this play out with our membership base? We have plenty of both Jewish and Muslim supporters. Taking sides in the current international crisis, is not going to end well.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So why is it a thread on the carlton board?

seems impossible to have anything but the most anaemic discussion without touching on the validity of views on the broader subject.

It is unacceptable for the club to take a position (if you consider they have - disputable that this constitutes tacit endorsement of activities in Gaza), but it's also acceptable to dismiss an employee on the basis of offensive conduct.

Surely that's the entirety of the thread if conducted on the terms specified?

You've just laid out the conversation. That's it. You can back or disagree with his stance on genocide, but we're not getting into a discussion on what is or isn't, unless the club somehow expands on it.

This is purely a topic that involves tbe Carlton Football Club, who have taken action against an employee over an event that happened. We can't not let that discussion happen.

Anything beyond Carlton and the greater debate over Israel and Palestine, has its place on the SRP board.

While many issues surrounding the club overlap greater talking points, we make no apologies for not letting it go beyond the Carlton Football Club.

This is a community with one core interest. We want to respect each other and discuss with each other in a constructive manner.

If any two posters want to further that discussion elsewhere, they are free to do that.

We did discuss this with each other behind closed doors and agreed it's part club business/part political and discussion was inevitable. The first part can be discussed here ad nauseum. The second will be confined to parameters. It's an explosive damned if you do, damned if you don't issue.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Terrible decision to sack the bloke based on the facts presented so far. Well within his rights to be completely uncomfortable with it.

I think it's less to do with being uncomfortable with the use of funds and more to do with the way he vocalised that.

I have no issue with the guy standing by his own morals and also no issue with the club for sacking him based on his reported interaction.

At the end of the day, he is wearing the monogram and effectively representing the club, who have an image to protect.

 

[ctwenty1]

There is NO nuance in genocide.

And that is precisely what is taking place in the Gaza strip.

To donate money to the very soldiers who are committing that genocide would be no different to donating money to wounded N@zi soldiers during WWII, as they massacred Polish Jews in the Warsaw ghetto uprising.

Would people on here be okay with that?

I was under the impression that we still live in a country where freedom of speech is sacrosanct.

But I guess not.

Censor my comment if you will mods, but I will not remain silent when the club I've loved all my life does something despicable like this.

Captain Carlton wasn't a hero before. But He is now.

Dont worry mate

The counter view to your's is being more acutely censored

Your opinion isnt fact

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Let's face it, the club have always catered to one side of the political spectrum more than the other. Our history is shrouded in it. Menzies, Fraser, Elliott, Frydenburg. The rich and the powerful have radiated to this club, like no other. With that comes networking, corporate sponsorships and the club not wanting to bite the hand that feeds it.

We've balanced that out with our support for pride round in the AFLW and the Carlton Respects round, which are largely considered left leaning causes, though I'd argue they are just human causes, and should not be considered political at all.

It's tough to get on to our board, and you’ve got a better chance if you are cashed up and corporate. The personal beliefs of our board are not always going to reflect the supporter base as a whole.

I believe Carlton should not have a political affiliation at all. It should be community affiliations, and a close eye on which sponsors we engage with. We should not be any rich person's/movement's/corporation's plaything.

Everybody from the club that was at this event was representing Carlton, and arranged for this employee to appear on their behalf. His failure was also their failure as far as due diligence and the position we have painted ourselves into.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

There is NO nuance in genocide.

And that is precisely what is taking place in the Gaza strip.

To donate money to the very soldiers who are committing that genocide would be no different to donating money to wounded N@zi soldiers during WWII, as they massacred Polish Jews in the Warsaw ghetto uprising.

Would people on here be okay with that?

I was under the impression that we still live in a country where freedom of speech is sacrosanct.

But I guess not.

Censor my comment if you will mods, but I will not remain silent when the club I've loved all my life does something despicable like this.

Captain Carlton wasn't a hero before. But He is now.

It's not censorship. Club stuff you can discuss here. The greater argument you can discuss on the SRP board. It's just going around in circles otherwise.

 

[Bletch]

Interesting timing here, Patty Kinnersly is the keynote speaker at the MENtal Brekky tomorrow morning! Any questions comrades?
I'll be sitting next to her for breakfast as her host, I can ask a "quiet" question

DL, I think the questions below from katmanblue would be a good start. Would also like to know if the club was put under any pressure from external groups (e.g. ADL, pro-Israel lobby groups) to sack the employee?

Yeah, everyone in this situation is at fault to some degree.

It's not black and white.

As I understand it, the club books the mascot for private events as part of his employment duties. This raises important questions:

• What briefing and information does the club provide to employees before sending them to private events?
• Was the employee informed in advance about the political nature of this particular event, including that it involved fundraising for military operations in an active conflict zone?
• Does the club have policies regarding employees who may have ethical objections to participating in politically-charged events?

By booking mascot appearances at events with explicit political fundraising components, particularly related to active military conflicts, the club potentially places employees in impossible positions between their employment obligations and their personal conscience.

• Should the club be accepting bookings for private events that involve political fundraising for foreign military forces?
• If the club does accept such bookings, shouldn't employees be fully informed in advance and given the option to decline based on personal beliefs?
• What protections exist for employees who find themselves in situations that conflict with their deeply held ethical positions?

 

[agro]

Nick Austin was one of my students, and if this wasn't bigfooty I'd knock your teeth out you anti-listite bastard.

Seinfeld good - Basil Fawlty bad.

 

[mickelboy182]

I think it's less to do with being uncomfortable with the use of funds and more to do with the way he vocalised that.

I have no issue with the guy standing by his own morals and also no issue with the club for sacking him based on his reported interaction.

At the end of the day, he is wearing the monogram and effectively representing the club, who have an image to protect.

Forgive me if I've missed further reporting on this, but the only way I've seen it reported is he said (to someone, it was ambiguous in the article I read) 'I'm not doing this for ****ing zios'.

I'm going to need more context to hang the guy, i.e. if he said this to a single bloke on his way out the door that is significantly different to shouting it for all to hear.

 

[DangerousD]

I think it's less to do with being uncomfortable with the use of funds and more to do with the way he vocalised that.

I have no issue with the guy standing by his own morals and also no issue with the club for sacking him based on his reported interaction.

At the end of the day, he is wearing the monogram and effectively representing the club, who have an image to protect.

The AFL industry and clubs specifically have sanctioned players in the past for racial vilification and homophobic outbursts, by suspending them for 3-5 weeks.

This hasn’t happened to us yet but I’m putting it out there, that we wouldn’t sack a player for racist or homophobic slurs, so why would a staff member be sacked for a comment that, would most likely be deemed not racist?

I just read a statement supposedly from the club that stated the employee was dismissed because they didn’t uphold the values of the club.

What’s lost here is, our club is sending employees to help raise funds for an army, from a country who’s Prime minister and defence minister are wanted for war crimes and for a country that’s been accused by the UN of committing a genocide.

I can see this being taken further for unfair dismissal

 

[ctwenty1]

The AFL industry and clubs specifically have sanctioned players in the past for racial vilification and homophobic outbursts, by suspending them for 3-5 weeks.

This hasn’t happened to us yet but I’m putting it out there, that we wouldn’t sack a player for racist or homophobic slurs, so why would a staff member be sacked for a comment that, would most likely be deemed not racist?

I just read a statement supposedly from the club that stated the employee was dismissed because they didn’t uphold the values of the club.

What’s lost here is, our club is sending employees to help raise funds for an army, from a country who’s Prime minister and defence minister are wanted for war crimes and for a country that’s been accused by the UN of committing a genocide.

I can see this being taken further for unfair dismissal

Knowingly?

 

[goreds]

So there's a pretty important vacancy now at Carlton FC.

Can we get a poll set up, who we think from BF Carlton board should be installed as the new Captain Carlton?

Couple of early names Soapy V ESKIE, any others that we should have, 10 should do it???

 

[agro]

Which would be a worthwhile point to make if Captain Carlton was asked to support a party sending money to Hamas. But that's not what happened, is it?

What are the rules about donating money to a proscribed terrorist group?

 

[ctwenty1]

So there's a pretty important vacancy now at Carlton FC.

Can we get a poll set up, who we think from BF Carlton board should be installed as the new Captain Carlton?

Couple of early names Soapy V ESKIE, any others that we should have, 10 should do it???

I wont need the padding to show muscles so potential cost saving for the club

 

[DangerousD]

Knowingly?

I’m making the assumption that clubs are smart enough to ask for details of events they are committing staff for.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Forgive me if I've missed further reporting on this, but the only way I've seen it reported is he said (to someone, it was ambiguous in the article I read) 'I'm not doing this for ****ing zios'.

I'm going to need more context to hang the guy, i.e. if he said this to a single bloke on his way out the door that is significantly different to shouting it for all to hear.

The article said it was overheard. Not quite the scene that some are painting it as.

 

[RAPPA]

So there's a pretty important vacancy now at Carlton FC.

Can we get a poll set up, who we think from BF Carlton board should be installed as the new Captain Carlton?

Couple of early names Soapy V ESKIE, any others that we should have, 10 should do it???

Must have a good back. That rules me out.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

The AFL industry and clubs specifically have sanctioned players in the past for racial vilification and homophobic outbursts, by suspending them for 3-5 weeks.

This hasn’t happened to us yet but I’m putting it out there, that we wouldn’t sack a player for racist or homophobic slurs, so why would a staff member be sacked for a comment that, would most likely be deemed not racist?

I just read a statement supposedly from the club that stated the employee was dismissed because they didn’t uphold the values of the club.

What’s lost here is, our club is sending employees to help raise funds for an army, from a country who’s Prime minister and defence minister are wanted for war crimes and for a country that’s been accused by the UN of committing a genocide.

I can see this being taken further for unfair dismissal

Fixed it for you DD

"I just read a statement supposedly from the club that stated the employee was dismissed because they didn’t uphold the values of the club personal interests of its Board Members."

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So there's a pretty important vacancy now at Carlton FC.

Can we get a poll set up, who we think from BF Carlton board should be installed as the new Captain Carlton?

Couple of early names Soapy V ESKIE, any others that we should have, 10 should do it???

How many of us are going to be able to do the flippy, flippy, handstand stuff?

 

[mickelboy182]

The article said it was overheard. Not quite the scene that some are painting it as.

That is a serious departure from what is being said by some in here and if that is in fact what happened, he will take the club to the cleaners and rightfully so.