Hot Topic CARLTON SUPPORTERS ONLY - Carlton fires Captain Carlton

[Gethelred]

Carlton caught up in fresh storm over club mascot

A statement has been issued and the person at the centre of the incident has been sacked.

7news.com.au

This thread is for the discussion of the sacking of a club mascot after refusing to participate in a bar mitzvah which was allegedly sending money back to the IDF.

By taking this position and labelling the act racist, the club has taken a position on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

This thread concerns a discussion of the following:

• whether it is acceptable for the club to fire someone for taking a political stance.
• whether it is a good idea for the club to have taken a public position on this issue.

This thread is not a thread in which you should partake in expressing your political beliefs concerning the conflict, nor is it somewhere in which forum rules do not apply.

Should you seek to participate in conversation related to the war, you can do so here:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack IV - Probable Case of Genocide

Continued from Part III https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack-iii.1381570/ Original Post, October 7, 2023: Israel declares state of war In response to the attacks, which appear to have caught the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) by surprise, Israel has...

www.bigfooty.com

There's also a thread on the SRP for a more robust discussion than can be permitted here:

Moved Thread - Blues mascot 'Captain Carlton' sacked after walking out of Bar Mitzvah and comments about Zionists.

Blues off to a flyer for the off season :D But surely one can criticise the actions of the IDF without being 'anti semitic' ‘Not doing this for f---ing Zios’: Captain Carlton mascot storms out of Bar Mitzvah celebration A man working as a mascot for the Carlton Football Club has stunned...

www.bigfooty.com

If you wish to participate in this thread, do so knowing that this will not be allowed to escalate beyond a point.

Thanks all!

 

[ctwenty1]

What hasn’t been reported is what was said to him prior to the alleged outburst. Who knows ,maybe it was a justified response.

what in your mind would make "****ing z*ios" a justified response?

 

[ctwenty1]

Sure but that is operating outside of the published information.

No, mine was an observation on what can be grounds for dismissal (from witnessed experience) ie a racial/sexist slur uttered to only one person, even if they are not the target, can be grounds for dismissal - doesnt just have to be a pronouncement to a wide audience

Was not offering any comment on what may have transpired

 

[katmanblue]

I have only read the channel 7 article linked in the OP. The only part of the article that actually discusses the incident says



That seems to line up with what I posted IMO.

If the media is blowing it up beyond that, then yeah... that's not what I was told.

HS going with "Mascot of Hate" with an image of CC kneeling and with a hand out (similar to a certain salute). And in tiny letters *digitally altered image.

They wouldn't be pushing an agenda, would they?

 

[ferrisb]

Could have pleased all sides by backflipping out of the venue...

He kinda did

 

[mickelboy182]

No, mine was an observation on what can be grounds for dismissal (from witnessed experience) ie a racial/sexist slur uttered to only one person, even if they are not the target, can be grounds for dismissal - doesnt just have to be a pronouncement to a wide audience

Was not offering any comment on what may have transpired

Ok mate, I'm not about to relitigate the history of unfair dismissals for fun. I'm content with sticking to the topic at hand.

 

[Sector 7G]

what in your mind would make "****ing z*ios" a justified response?

I don’t know- Maybe something like” I don’t care what you are comfortable doing, just F******* get up there and do the job we are paying for or we will get you sacked”

Like I said we haven’t heard from CC only the party goers side from Uncle Rupert.

 

[Gethelred]

I think you can support CC's political conviction but also support the decision to fire him. Pretty much everyone seems to be one or the other.

No matter how much he disagreed with giving money to wounded Israeli soldiers, I don't think you can swear something offensive* and walk out on a gig and not face repercussions. I am not a lawyer and I haven't seen his employment contract, but I'd guess there'd be clauses specifically covering reputational impact.

As much as you might sympathise with CC's views, this has nothing to do with Gaza and genocide.

If he'd been told that the kid was Chinese, but was donating money to the Communist Party and CC had said 'I'm not working for f*ing commies', I think he'd be fired.

If he'd been told he was attending a political event and then found out money was going to One Nation and said 'I'm not working for these f*ing xenophobes', I think he'd be fired.

Or Russia/Putin and he'd said 'I'm not working for these f*cking Ruskis', I think he'd be fired. Or 1,000 other examples of personal views you think are justified/just.

I am not sure he has a case for unfair dismissal unless he can prove the club did not follow proper process; investigate the incident, give him a right to respond etc etc. Situation would be even weaker if he was casual/gig employee.

This is probably where I sit.

 

[JustaBattler]

I think you can disagree with Cc political convictions and support the decision to fire him.

 

[perthblue]

His intent is irrelevant. It's an anti-semitic slur. Has been for a century. The fact it's not as well known as many others doesn't change that.

"Intent is irrelevant" what?? You think it has no relevance whether or not he meant it as an anti-semitic slur? I would say it's extremely important, and given that the KKK use is hardly mainstream I think you can give him the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[Gethelred]

"Intent is irrelevant" what?? You think it has no relevance whether or not he meant it as an anti-semitic slur? I would say it's extremely important, and given that the KKK use is hardly mainstream I think you can give him the benefit of the doubt here.

You can't really discount the racist interpretation of the term, Zionist. Antisemitic sentiment is entirely too common, even in Australia.

It might be relevant that he didn't mean it as an antisemitic slur, but that it can be one isn't really questionable.

 

[GoBlues!]

HS going with "Mascot of Hate" with an image of CC kneeling and with a hand out (similar to a certain salute). And in tiny letters *digitally altered image.

They wouldn't be pushing an agenda, would they?

View attachment 2464134

I assume you mean Usain Bolt’s classic celebration pose k-man….. HS pathetic rag.

 

[Stamos]

You can't really discount the racist interpretation of the term, Zionist. Antisemitic sentiment is entirely too common, even in Australia.

It might be relevant that he didn't mean it as an antisemitic slur, but that it can be one isn't really questionable.

Anything can be “antisemitic” if you’re an Israel lobbyist.

 

[Reddington]

He would have been sacked for "antisemitic" comments. Which is total bullshit because anti-Zionism is not antisemitism.

Channel 7 reported that there were "senior club members" there. Um... I take that as there were Zionists there who bitched to the club about it comflating Zionism with Judaism. The fact he showed up for the Bar Mitzvah shows that he wasn't antisemitic.

No offence mate as you are probably low grade ignorant here but have you ever asked a Jew what Zionism means to them and why they might disagree with you here?

The absolute vast majority of Jews would consider themselves as being zionist, with the core principle being the existence of a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Given the history of the Jewish people it is not hard to understand why many would support the existence of a Jewish homeland with self determination.

Being a zionist does not make one pro occupation or pro war. There are zionists on the left side of politics and zionists on the right side of politics. There are Zionists who fight for a two state solution. There are zionists who hate the Israeli government and oppose war and Zionists who support it.

When people like to use zionist as a slur most Jews will take offence regardless of how you feel they should receive those words. I feel many people pretend not to be aware of this and this is why it could very much be argued there are no doubt antisemitic connotations behind its use.

Somehow I feel if a homosexual or person of colour took offence at something said to them you would be inclined to feel differently and consider their point of view? Double standards for Jews it seems to me.

 

[Chief]

Somehow I feel if a homosexual or person of colour took offence at something said to them you would be inclined to feel differently and consider their point of view? Double standards for Jews it seems to me.

How is Zionism the same as being gay or black?

How is being Jewish the same as being a Zionist? It's been pointed out by many commentators that lumping all Jewish people under the label "Zionist" is in itself a touch bigoted and maybe anti-Semitic.

Anyway - I had decided not to say any more.

 

[Reddington]

How is Zionism the same as being gay or black?

How is being Jewish the same as being a Zionist? It's been pointed out by many commentators that lumping all Jewish people under the label "Zionist" is in itself a touch bigoted and maybe anti-Semitic.

Anyway - I had decided not to say any more.

Because a relationship with Israel is intrinsic to Judaism. Almost every Jew would consider themselves a Zionist irrespective of political beliefs. If you actually spoke to Jewish people and asked them instead of making statements about them you would understand.

It’s not about being the same as gay or black. It’s if a Jewish person says a slur such as ‘****ing zio’ is antisemitic they get scolded for being offended. Yet those same people would likely take proper consideration for the feelings of a gay or black person if they claimed offence to something said about them.

 

[Mondyboy]

Anything can be “antisemitic” if you’re an Israel lobbyist.

Just to be clear, it’s the use of Zio (not Zionist) that I have an issue with. The use of Zio is a slur disconnected from the Israeli lobby because the use of the term predates the State of Israel.

 

[Stamos]

Just to be clear, it’s the use of Zio (not Zionist) that I have an issue with. The use of Zio is a slur disconnected from the Israeli lobby because the use of the term predates the State of Israel.

Fair enough. I’m not sure many people would be aware of the difference.

 

[Mondyboy]

"Intent is irrelevant" what?? You think it has no relevance whether or not he meant it as an anti-semitic slur? I would say it's extremely important, and given that the KKK use is hardly mainstream I think you can give him the benefit of the doubt here.

The term is offensive to Jewish people—of which I am one. If he apologised for using the term not knowing it was a slur, I’d be OK with that. But the apology is key, because the term-regardless of intent-is offensive to Jewish people.

 

[Mondyboy]

Fair enough. I’m not sure many people would be aware of the difference.

Yes, well, most Australians have no idea about Judaism as this thread has amply demonstrated (and I’m not talking the Israel stuff. All the confused talk about the Bar Mitzvah and the giving of gifts and the religious significance would elicit a chuckle if the issue weren’t so serious).

(I also usually keep quiet about this stuff and my identity because I can’t be arsed being interrogated about my views on Israel. Have no idea why I decided to pop my head up on a Carlton forum. Safer talking about whether Voss can coach and Austin’s LM strategy).

 

[Stig O'Hara]

But it's a choice. Not based on biology. It's not intrinsic.

It's based on aligning yourself with people who wanted to prove they owned certain bits of land back in the Bronze Age.

God isn't real. No magical being promised anyone anything. Because they don't exist.

Once you start from the point of recognising that reality, the rest becomes anywhere from a comforting lie (mostly for keeping little people in their place) all the way up to an abhorrent excuse for mass murder of children.

The whole 'zio' deal I wasn't even aware was a thing. If that's even what the guy said.

But I said I wouldn't say much more. I will leave it at that.

The universe is a sentient entity.

We are nano particles in an expanding or contracting force.

Time does not exist.

 

[Chief]

I'm sure. Whatever the shrooms tell you, brother. (Or sister)

 

[katmanblue]

These are not my words. They come from a one day old Reddit account. I could see that they may have made a new account to get their story out but also it could be a troll or someone trying to muddy the water.

Without further ado direct from Reddit:
------------------

I'm the carlton mascot that left the bar mitzvah.

Hi my name is Cole, I'm the specific Carlton mascot that was in the newspapers for leaving a bar mitzvah.

I'm posting this to clarify.

This is the email I sent to my boss after I got home that night, & is what happened.

Hi [Boss], I left the bar mitzvah tonight before I performed as I found out the family were supporting Israel's military.
I will send back the $250 they sent me, and briefly explain why I left, to [the boys Dad], in an email tomorrow.
These are the events of what happened tonight if you'd like further explanation.

Events from tonight:

• I arrived and got dressed
• The event manager [name] told me I would be posing on stage at the end of speeches and then dance with the kids
• I watched the speeches, hiding to not ruin the surprise

The mom and dad spoke about:

• A relative that had flown down from Israel for this bar mitzvah
• Israeli hostages that had been released back into Israel recently
• Their pride in the country of Israel
• And then a bit about their son being a good kid

I was uncomfortable when they spoke about their pride in Israel, but wanted to believe they meant the Israeli citizens and communities.

Their son then got up to speak about:

• Being thankful for everyone at the party
• And his support and admiration for specifically Israeli soldiers (the military responsible for the occupation and genocide in Palestine)

I then audibly gasped, but wasn't close enough to the attendees to be heard.
I asked someone in the band if the family of the boy were Zionists and he said he didn't know.

I listened for a bit longer and the kid kept expressing his support for Israeli soldiers, at which point I got up and tried looking for the event manager, but I could not find [them] so I packed the suit and left.

I chose not to express my objections as I thought it would reflect more on Carlton, than me, as a performer, challenging nationalist rhetoric.

I am sorry for the position this puts you in, but It's important to at least boycott Zionist business, if I cannot provide aid to palestinian victims in a more meaningful way.

Zionism is a political movement for establishing a Jewish nation in Palestine.
Israel's government and military believe this goal is worth the lives of more than 67 thousand Palestinians as of now. [edit: this number is only from the last 2 years]

All war is bad and sympathy for all veterans is valid, but the family made very clear their support for Israel's government and military, which is not something I can stand by.

I do appreciate you putting in the effort to organise this gig, and hope I communicated the importance of my decision to not perform at this specific event.

Thanks [Boss]


Extra info not in the email:

I forgot to say, when I was leaving, I ran past the doorman, and said "family emergency" because I panicked.

I was pretty sure they were talking about a fundraiser for the soldiers, but I didn't want to say that in the email, incase I misinterpreted where the money was going.

The point of me leaving was to show them it's not just business, and performers WILL refuse to work for anyone with bigoted, cruel, or wilfully ignorant beliefs (Zionism, Nazis, or any other superiority culture)

DON'T be anti-Semitic, but DO be anti-Zionist and anti-Nazi.

Stop taking pride in nations that are built on and/or perpetuated by genocide, propaganda, & erasure.

--------------------

 

[GoBlues!]

These are not my words. They come from a one day old Reddit account. I could see that they may have made a new account to get their story out but also it could be a troll or someone trying to muddy the water.

Without further ado direct from Reddit:
------------------

I'm the carlton mascot that left the bar mitzvah.

Hi my name is Cole, I'm the specific Carlton mascot that was in the newspapers for leaving a bar mitzvah.

I'm posting this to clarify.

This is the email I sent to my boss after I got home that night, & is what happened.

Hi [Boss], I left the bar mitzvah tonight before I performed as I found out the family were supporting Israel's military.
I will send back the $250 they sent me, and briefly explain why I left, to [the boys Dad], in an email tomorrow.
These are the events of what happened tonight if you'd like further explanation.

Events from tonight:

• I arrived and got dressed
• The event manager [name] told me I would be posing on stage at the end of speeches and then dance with the kids
• I watched the speeches, hiding to not ruin the surprise

The mom and dad spoke about:

• A relative that had flown down from Israel for this bar mitzvah
• Israeli hostages that had been released back into Israel recently
• Their pride in the country of Israel
• And then a bit about their son being a good kid

I was uncomfortable when they spoke about their pride in Israel, but wanted to believe they meant the Israeli citizens and communities.

Their son then got up to speak about:

• Being thankful for everyone at the party
• And his support and admiration for specifically Israeli soldiers (the military responsible for the occupation and genocide in Palestine)

I then audibly gasped, but wasn't close enough to the attendees to be heard.
I asked someone in the band if the family of the boy were Zionists and he said he didn't know.

I listened for a bit longer and the kid kept expressing his support for Israeli soldiers, at which point I got up and tried looking for the event manager, but I could not find [them] so I packed the suit and left.

I chose not to express my objections as I thought it would reflect more on Carlton, than me, as a performer, challenging nationalist rhetoric.

I am sorry for the position this puts you in, but It's important to at least boycott Zionist business, if I cannot provide aid to palestinian victims in a more meaningful way.

Zionism is a political movement for establishing a Jewish nation in Palestine.
Israel's government and military believe this goal is worth the lives of more than 67 thousand Palestinians as of now. [edit: this number is only from the last 2 years]

All war is bad and sympathy for all veterans is valid, but the family made very clear their support for Israel's government and military, which is not something I can stand by.

I do appreciate you putting in the effort to organise this gig, and hope I communicated the importance of my decision to not perform at this specific event.

Thanks [Boss]


Extra info not in the email:

I forgot to say, when I was leaving, I ran past the doorman, and said "family emergency" because I panicked.

I was pretty sure they were talking about a fundraiser for the soldiers, but I didn't want to say that in the email, incase I misinterpreted where the money was going.

The point of me leaving was to show them it's not just business, and performers WILL refuse to work for anyone with bigoted, cruel, or wilfully ignorant beliefs (Zionism, Nazis, or any other superiority culture)

DON'T be anti-Semitic, but DO be anti-Zionist and anti-Nazi.

Stop taking pride in nations that are built on and/or perpetuated by genocide, propaganda, & erasure.

--------------------

Weird, no mention of getting sacked by the [Boss] at Carlton at all in the above?

Would have expected a big **** you very much Carlton boss for firing me after I explained my account of events. Sounds like to me.

 

[ctwenty1]

Weird, no mention of getting sacked by the [Boss] at Carlton at all in the email?

Would have expected a big **** you very much Carlton boss for firing me after I explained my account of events. Sounds like to me.

Plot twist- he wasn’t sacked after all!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

These are not my words. They come from a one day old Reddit account. I could see that they may have made a new account to get their story out but also it could be a troll or someone trying to muddy the water.

Without further ado direct from Reddit:
------------------

I'm the carlton mascot that left the bar mitzvah.

Hi my name is Cole, I'm the specific Carlton mascot that was in the newspapers for leaving a bar mitzvah.

I'm posting this to clarify.

This is the email I sent to my boss after I got home that night, & is what happened.

Hi [Boss], I left the bar mitzvah tonight before I performed as I found out the family were supporting Israel's military.
I will send back the $250 they sent me, and briefly explain why I left, to [the boys Dad], in an email tomorrow.
These are the events of what happened tonight if you'd like further explanation.

Events from tonight:

• I arrived and got dressed
• The event manager [name] told me I would be posing on stage at the end of speeches and then dance with the kids
• I watched the speeches, hiding to not ruin the surprise

The mom and dad spoke about:

• A relative that had flown down from Israel for this bar mitzvah
• Israeli hostages that had been released back into Israel recently
• Their pride in the country of Israel
• And then a bit about their son being a good kid

I was uncomfortable when they spoke about their pride in Israel, but wanted to believe they meant the Israeli citizens and communities.

Their son then got up to speak about:

• Being thankful for everyone at the party
• And his support and admiration for specifically Israeli soldiers (the military responsible for the occupation and genocide in Palestine)

I then audibly gasped, but wasn't close enough to the attendees to be heard.
I asked someone in the band if the family of the boy were Zionists and he said he didn't know.

I listened for a bit longer and the kid kept expressing his support for Israeli soldiers, at which point I got up and tried looking for the event manager, but I could not find [them] so I packed the suit and left.

I chose not to express my objections as I thought it would reflect more on Carlton, than me, as a performer, challenging nationalist rhetoric.

I am sorry for the position this puts you in, but It's important to at least boycott Zionist business, if I cannot provide aid to palestinian victims in a more meaningful way.

Zionism is a political movement for establishing a Jewish nation in Palestine.
Israel's government and military believe this goal is worth the lives of more than 67 thousand Palestinians as of now. [edit: this number is only from the last 2 years]

All war is bad and sympathy for all veterans is valid, but the family made very clear their support for Israel's government and military, which is not something I can stand by.

I do appreciate you putting in the effort to organise this gig, and hope I communicated the importance of my decision to not perform at this specific event.

Thanks [Boss]


Extra info not in the email:

I forgot to say, when I was leaving, I ran past the doorman, and said "family emergency" because I panicked.

I was pretty sure they were talking about a fundraiser for the soldiers, but I didn't want to say that in the email, incase I misinterpreted where the money was going.

The point of me leaving was to show them it's not just business, and performers WILL refuse to work for anyone with bigoted, cruel, or wilfully ignorant beliefs (Zionism, Nazis, or any other superiority culture)

DON'T be anti-Semitic, but DO be anti-Zionist and anti-Nazi.

Stop taking pride in nations that are built on and/or perpetuated by genocide, propaganda, & erasure.

--------------------

If true, he sounds like a reasonable and articulate person.

Questions ... who is the boss, and how many Captain Carltons are there? It sounds like we hire different people for different gigs, outside of the match day guy who is the official mascot.

If it's a talent agency gig, Carlton are being a bit misleading in saying they sacked someone who was only hired for a gig, but had already announced he wasn't doing it.

Was this just for appearances sake?