The off topic thread 6.0

[SM]

It's a very small percentage of competitors but it does ensure the integrity of women's events is maintained.

Most transitioned athletes are actually worse than the field, not better. The fact that they have to meet certain chemical requirements to be allowed to compete actually sometimes puts them at a disadvantage to 'naturally' born women.

The number of instances of the sorts of outrageous incidents that people's minds always go to when this comes up is incredibly minute.

Some very good research and detail in this piece on it.

 

[Jatz]

What are you on about? The difference is if they compete against a gender they weren't born as and they don't make it to the Olympics or wherever then they aren't there. If they do make it it's because they're the most qualified to get there.

If you're one of the nutters who thinks it's essentially men competing against girls maybe do a bit of reading up on the situation.

Ok. I disagree with you.

Nutters? I think it's disgraceful that anyone would claim it's 'men against girls'.

 

[SM]

Ok. I disagree with you.

Nutters? I think it's disgraceful that anyone would claim it's 'men against girls'.

So what are you disagreeing with exactly then?

Most people complaining about trans women competing in women's sport are dog whistling transphobia so I'm glad to hear you aren't one of them.

 

[Jatz]

So what are you disagreeing with exactly then?

Most people complaining about trans women competing in women's sport are dog whistling transphobia so I'm glad to hear you aren't one of them.

I don't agree with your statement that if they made it to the Olympics that makes them most qualified to get there.

I believe the sooner we can get a Trans category into sports the better off everyone will be. They deserve to compete against competitors that are similar to them.

I do understand the people you're referring to. I don't believe my thoughts come from a place of bigotry at all.

 

[SM]

I don't agree with your statement that if they made it to the Olympics that makes them most qualified to get there.

I believe the sooner we can get a Trans category into sports the better off everyone will be. They deserve to compete against competitors that are similar to them.

I do understand the people you're referring to. I don't believe my thoughts come from a place of bigotry at all.

So what exactly are your beliefs coming from? You're literally saying they should be excluded from competition because.. why exactly? You say that if they qualify that doesn't mean they deserved to qualify. You seem to be dancing around your thoughts without actually putting them into words. You've already agreed that anyone saying that it's akin to 'men against girls' is being silly, so what exactly is the issue with trans athletes that you have?

 

[Jatz]

So what exactly are your beliefs coming from? You're literally saying they should be excluded from competition because.. why exactly? You say that if they qualify that doesn't mean they deserved to qualify. You seem to be dancing around your thoughts without actually putting them into words. You've already agreed that anyone saying that it's akin to 'men against girls' is being silly, so what exactly is the issue with trans athletes that you have?

For a start, men and women should be what they’re referenced as. Using men (adult) and girls (child) is poor form imo. I know that can easily be passed off as ‘nitpicking’ but that feels like a difference that needs correcting.

Trans women aren’t genetically the same as biological women. I don’t think they should be competing in the same competitions. I understand they view themselves as women but there’s obviously a fundamental genetic difference. In the same way I don’t believe that trans men should be competing in men’s competitions. I don’t believe it’s a level playing field for either of those examples.

I believe if we’re going to be genuinely inclusive with trans athletes, they should have their own competition and it should be shown on the world stage. They are no less human than the rest of us and they deserve their chance to shine on the big stage. I believe the best way to do that is to establish a competition that is fairer to them.

I already know you’ll disagree with me, that’s completely fine. It’s a complex issue. I won’t be posting further on it though. I’ve put forward my thoughts/opinions on the matter. I completely respect your right to disagree.

 

[SM]

Ah ok so it is the transphobia thing.

 

[Cruyff14]

Genuinely confused as to how it's transphobic why a trans athlete shouldn't compete with men or women?

 

[SM]

Genuinely confused as to how it's transphobic why a trans athlete shouldn't compete with men or women?

You do realise that someone identifying as a woman and transitioning to a woman is a woman? "Trans" isn't a gender. Are you suggesting we should have a testosterone spectrum in sport and everyone should compete in the zone they align with?

Transphobia refers to people who refuse to acknowledge people's identified gender. If people identify as women and conform with the biological requirements for being defined as a woman, people refusing to recognise them as women are literally being transphobic. It's funny this debate never comes up over trans men.

 

[SM]

Trans Women in Sports: Facts Over Fear | SF.gov

Resources to combat misinformation around trans women's participation in sports

www.sf.gov

I'll leave this here. My second resource posted in the thread, and if people genuinely interested in the issue want to read it and consider their stance they can. Or they can just stick with their ignorance I guess. But ultimately the rejection of trans athletes is rooted in transphobia, there is no evidence of any of the fear mongering being justified. Trans women are actually at a disadvantage when competing against "natural" women and have rarely if ever been successful in competitions, but people oppose them competing "just cos, like, the vibe".

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

The UK Supreme Court ruled in April that ruled that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

Court made it clear that “it is lawful to exclude biological males from female only services, where those female only services are lawful under the Equality Act.”

Still offers protection to trans from discrimination under the equality law.

So from that FA and Cricket board in UK banned trans from sport. IOC has appointed its own expert panel and seems like they’ll be coming down against trans sportspeople as well.

There have been studies recently that came to conclusion that they retained advantages well after transitioning. A lot agree that they have a right to be called a woman but some maintain they have an advantage in sports. Can’t say the same for trans men in sports for obvious reasons

 

[Frank Bunn]

I believe if we’re going to be genuinely inclusive with trans athletes, they should have their own competition and it should be shown on the world stage. They are no less human than the rest of us and they deserve their chance to shine on the big stage. I believe the best way to do that is to establish a competition that is fairer to them.

The idea is good in principle but how would it work practically? There's a about 150 men's events and 150 women's events at an Olympics. Would you then have another 300 events? 150 trans men's events and 150 trans women's events. If you shift it to a separate tournament like the Paralympics or Deaflympics it might make it appear that being trans is a disability.

 

[SM]

The idea is good in principle but how would it work practically? There's a about 150 men's events and 150 women's events at an Olympics. Would you then have another 300 events? 150 trans men's events and 150 trans women's events. If you shift it to a separate tournament like the Paralympics or Deaflympics it might make it appear that being trans is a disability.

And as I suggested above to Cruyff, there's a spectrum of testosterone levels. "Naturally" born women can exhibit higher levels of testosterone than trans women but will be allowed to continue to compete against other women with lower testosterone levels even though the strawman argument is always about how unfair it is because of natural advantages (i.e. testosterone) in transitioned women. Would you have an Olympic games where you would have brackets of testosterone? Should some men with incredibly low testosterone levels be able to compete against women with a corresponding level?

It all gets rather silly at a point. Particularly when you consider the number of athletes a decision like this makes is incredibly small and just serves to exclude and divide communities rather than unite people who wish to compete. For all the teeth gnashing and wailing about how unfair trans women make things, I don't think anyone could name a single athlete off the top of their head who has won anything of note who is trans. I don't think anyone could cite an example of a situation where a 'naturally born' woman was unnatturally disadvantaged for competing against trans women (other than the very obvious fact that it's a broader talent pool). And so despite the seemingly well meaning and very noble stances some declare they're taking, once you dig beneath the surface to understand their actual issues with the subject, it all comes back to one root issue.

 

[Jatz]

The idea is good in principle but how would it work practically? There's a about 150 men's events and 150 women's events at an Olympics. Would you then have another 300 events? 150 trans men's events and 150 trans women's events. If you shift it to a separate tournament like the Paralympics or Deaflympics it might make it appear that being trans is a disability.

If there’s genuine competition for it then yes.

I don’t believe there would be just yet.

On a slightly unrelated note, I think the Olympics is actually dying a slow death anyway.

 

[SM]

And I guess if there's no genuine competition this small handful of athletes just get excluded from competing because 'it's the vibe'.

 

[Jatz]

Yeah, it's not the vibe. But you do you boo.

 

[SM]

What a strange response on something you were no longer responding on.

 

[Bostonian]

As someone who has played different sports against women I can categorically say we men have huge advantages over them.

I've played against some women who've made AFLW and VFLW and I really had to hold back on how I performed because I could see how my advantages even at a past my prime age were still too large.

No cutting off of parts ot taking hormones will make me lose my height, my wingspan or my speed.

Most of the people who claim trans women have no physical advantage always look like people who are the least athletic in the room.

 

[SM]

As someone who has played different sports against women I can categorically say we men have huge advantages over them.

I've played against some women who've made AFLW and VFLW and I really had to hold back on how I performed because I could see how my advantages even at a past my prime age were still too large.

No cutting off of parts ot taking hormones will make me lose my height, my wingspan or my speed.

Most of the people who claim trans women have no physical advantage always look like people who are the least athletic in the room.

Out of interest then, where are these dozens of tall, strong, quick trans women smashing women's sports to pieces who need to be reigned in?

Where are the restrictions on the naturally born women who are tall, strong and agile? Is it fair for them to compete when they are outside the normal remit for women? Serena Williams, for example? Caster Semenya?

I think there's this really weird perception that trans women transition with the aim of dominating women's sports as a way of delegitimising their identity (they don't really feel like women, they just want to play women's sport to win a medal). The majority of trans women have zero interest in playing professional sport. The amount of focus/energy this issue has is way out of proportion to the number of people it impacts and you have to question why..

 

[Bostonian]

Out of interest then, where are these dozens of tall, strong, quick trans women smashing women's sports to pieces who need to be reigned in?

Where are the restrictions on the naturally born women who are tall, strong and agile? Is it fair for them to compete when they are outside the normal remit for women? Serena Williams, for example? Caster Semenya?

Well at this stage it's mostly failed hack "sports" people who want to compete in women's sports.

Tall women on the whole are nowhere near as coordinated or explosive as a male their size.

6ft women in basketball might be tall relative to women, but 99.9% of them can't dunk a basketball.

The % of men that height who can is astronomically higher.

Serena Williams admitted she'd get smashed by much lower ranked male players in a match.

Just create trans leagues, fund them and let people enjoy sport without the controversy.

 

[SM]

Well at this stage it's mostly failed hack "sports" people who want to compete in women's sports.

Tall women on the whole are nowhere near as coordinated or explosive as a male their size.

6ft women in basketball might be tall relative to women, but 99.9% of them can't dunk a basketball.

The % of men that height who can is astronomically higher.

Serena Williams admitted she'd get smashed by much lower ranked male players in a match.

Just create trans leagues, fund them and let people enjoy sport without the controversy.

I think you missed my point by citing Williams, and notice you ignored Semenya.

But this conversation will go nowhere productive with you.

 

[Bostonian]

I think you missed my point by citing Williams, and notice you ignored Semenya.

But this conversation will go nowhere productive with you.

Your point about Williams was nonsensical though.

She had no physical traits other players haven't had.

Semenya is an outlier.

And you ignored the comparison between basketball players.

Do you think if Victor Wembanyama all of a sudden declared himself a woman that undertaking all the processes would diminish his male advantages to dominate women's basketball?

 

[Bostonian]

I think there's this really weird perception that trans women transition with the aim of dominating women's sports as a way of delegitimising their identity (they don't really feel like women, they just want to play women's sport to win a medal). The majority of trans women have zero interest in playing professional sport. The amount of focus/energy this issue has is way out of proportion to the number of people it impacts and you have to question why..

It's easy to understand why.

The majority of people have a view men can't be women.

And when super arrogant and pretentious people come out and try and lecture them on it the majority push back against these people hard.

It's like having a super arrogant and pretentious religious person telling a room of atheists they are wrong because they don't believe in what they believe in.

You can believe in whatever you like, nobody else has to though.

 

[Planet14]

The majority of people have a view men can't be women.

Show your workings?

 

[SM]

It's easy to understand why.

The majority of people have a view men can't be women.

And when super arrogant and pretentious people come out and try and lecture them on it the majority push back against these people hard.

It's like having a super arrogant and pretentious religious person telling a room of atheists they are wrong because they don't believe in what they believe in.

You can believe in whatever you like, nobody else has to though.

Bingo.

Thanks for playing.