Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[doppleganger]

End of a generation and an era with Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Howe, De Goey and Elliot all close to the end. Last season for 3 of them. Take that quality out and where do the quality replacements come from?

DeGoey is only 29 and he has barely played 50% of our games in 24-25, he is actually one we would expect much greater output from in the next few seasons.

Elliott had his best ever season, and we just signed him to a two year contract. He will be hard to replace, as he is a small with great marking ability, but we have a couple of years to find a replacement.

Howe only played 70% our games in last few years, we are used to playing without him. We already have really strong 3rd up type half back flankers in IQ and Maynard, and have Reef McInnes who looms as a preferred choice down back.

Pendles and Sidey are all-time club champions, but will be a transition type year. We saw in the QF v Adelaide that Sidey can be used up forward as a goal sneak and Pendles may get games behind the ball, plus we will probably be happy to manage them to not have them play every week.

You actually dont bother answering that. Wonder why? You point to irrelevant history and thats about it.

In terms of immediate midfield replacements for Sidey and Pendles, I think it is J.Daicos and then a combo of Perryman, Ed Allan, HHarrison or Parker who will get first crack.

J.Daicos has looked fantastic when given a run in the middle, and hopefully it allows Houston to flourish across HB (or a guy like Parker step up).

From now on teams need top picks to land top father sins and NGA kids. And top picks are few and far between for Collingwood and they wilk be even harder to come across with Tasmania coming in.

Yes Collingwood need a few of the 21 players on our list who are yet to play 25 AFL games to step up.

Internally they will be confident some will, and having Pendles, Sidey and Howe around to help the kids will be a massive advantage.

But the folly people continue to fall for is that they seem to projects list forward for 3-4 years in a vacuum, the Pies list for 2029 will likely be almost 50% different than the 2026 list.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I'm getting excited

 

[doppleganger]

It will be the last season for Howe and Pendlebury imo. DeGoey and Elliott have 2 year contracts. Sidebottom will be extended unless his form is poor or we have a glut of development. Howe has missed a lot of footy over the last 4 years. So no major loss and Pendlebury is overall an average utility who has played equal parts half back, wing and midfield. His output has already been replaced by players like McCreery, Long, Allan, Steele, Houston ect. We will miss his on field leadership but hopefully Daicos, Cameron, Houston ect can pick-up the slack in that department.

I think in terms of probability of hanging em up it would be Howe, Sidey, Pendles, Elliott, DeGoey.

Pendles has been chugging along as a low 20s disposal, supercoach avg of 90 who gets 20 odd coaches votes a season sort of consistent player since 2021.

Sidey fluctuates more, and don't think he has the tricks that Pendles does if his tank starts failing him.

Wouldn't surprise if Howe and Sidey hang em up at end of 2026, but Pendles goes again. 30-35 games across next two seasons for Pendles to finish around 460 games.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

I think in terms of probability of hanging em up it would be Howe, Sidey, Pendles, Elliott, DeGoey.

Pendles has been chugging along as a low 20s disposal, supercoach avg of 90 who gets 20 odd coaches votes a season sort of consistent player since 2021.

Sidey fluctuates more, and don't think he has the tricks that Pendles does if his tank starts failing him.

Wouldn't surprise if Howe and Sidey hang em up at end of 2026, but Pendles goes again. 30-35 games across next two seasons for Pendles to finish around 460 games.

That's definitely a possibility. I think we will transition 2 out at the end of this year and probably 2 more at the end of 2027 (Pendlebury, Howe, Elliott and Sidebottom). But my feeling is that Howe and Pendles are the 1st to go. DeGoey then out in 2028 or maybe 2029 with him mostly taking over from Elliott in the forward line. Moore will be out in 2028/9.

 

[doppleganger]

That's definitely a possibility. I think we will transition 2 out at the end of this year and probably 2 more at the end of 2027 (Pendlebury, Howe, Elliott and Sidebottom). But my feeling is that Howe and Pendles are the 1st to go. DeGoey then out in 2028 or maybe 2029 with him mostly taking over from Elliott in the forward line. Moore will be out in 2028/9.

Yep it is pretty standard stuff to have veterans retire - and clubs tend to move on 8-10 players each off season.

As highlighted earlier, we did the same back in 2020 - 2021 re veterans retiring. And we just moved on 5 2023 premiership veterans in the off-season this year.

The entire premise of successful list management is to keep your list contending, smart clubs are continually looking at the list...popping in a 29 year old to fill a role for 4 years is just as important as adding an 18 year old with potential

Give it 5 years and we then need to move on Perryman and Houston etc., guys we just added last year!

 

[Carringbush2010]

Really dont give a rats actually.

 

[ShereKhan]

What's mid or long term?

In 2023, amongst Collingwood's 10 most important players in the finals series were:
B. Hill
N. Daicos
D. McStay
T. Mitchell
D. Cameron
J. Daicos

5 of whom weren't on our list at the end of the 2019 season, and the jury was out as to whether J. Daicos was going to make it until his brother joined him on the list...

I love the way you've framed that......I'm not sure Darcy Cameron, McStay or Josh Daicos have received a coaches vote in finals for their entire careers, let alone in 2023....but nice of you to pop them in the 'most important' category to suit your argument. So does your top-10 from 2023 include Pendles? Sidey? Quaynor? DeGoey? Crisp? Moore? Howe? Mihocek? Maynard? Elliott? Cox?

Pies beyond 2026 look pretty cooked. You've got 1 x bullet left in the gun if you get a miraculous run with injury, which is unlikely given the age profile of the list.

It's really hard to see the future when you have no high end draftees on the list, no elite youth outside Naicos and Tasmania coming in to dominate the draft. There's nothing wrong with that as the Pies have been very good, but it's looking really really dire and it's illogical to think otherwise.

Where do the quality players come from?

 

[ShereKhan]

Yep, it was meant to have arrived after the "fire sale" at the end of 2020, when the following were moved off the list in the one off-season.

Dayne Beams, Lynden Dunn, Tom Langdon, Tom Phillips, Ben Reid, Matthew Scharenberg, Jaidyn Stephenson, Adam Treloar, Travis Varcoe, Rupert Wills.

It was looking good for the "cliffers" as the Pies spluttered through the 2021 season, the Pies were going to be stuck in the bottom for many years according to the "cliffers".

Fast forward 4 years, and after 3 PFs and a premiership, the cliffers are back!

In 2020 Pies had: Moore, Howe, Pendles, Sidey, DeGoey, Crisp, J Daicos, Quaynor, Maynard, Mihocek, Elliott, Cameron....all stil there.

Who on earth are the equivalent types on the current list you can count on in 2028-29?

 

[Fadge]

Pies beyond 2026 look pretty cooked. You've got 1 x bullet left in the gun if you get a miraculous run with injury, which is unlikely given the age profile of the list.

It's really hard to see the future when you have no high end draftees on the list, no elite youth outside Naicos and Tasmania coming in to dominate the draft. There's nothing wrong with that as the Pies have been very good, but it's looking really really dire and it's illogical to think otherwise.

Where do the quality players come from?

I thought we were using our last bullet in 2025?

And prior to that, I thought we were cooked for the next 5 years in 2021?

You guys really need to make up your minds. You're embarrassing yourselves.

Or more accurately, the Collingwood Football Club are embarrassing you.

 

[Fadge]

I love the way you've framed that......I'm not sure Darcy Cameron, McStay or Josh Daicos have received a coaches vote in finals for their entire careers, let alone in 2023....but nice of you to pop them in the 'most important' category to suit your argument. So does your top-10 from 2023 include Pendles? Sidey? Quaynor? DeGoey? Crisp? Moore? Howe? Mihocek? Maynard? Elliott? Cox?

D. Cameron is one of our most important players, full stop.

As I said earlier, Pies don't win either the Qualifying or Preliminary Final without McStay.

J. Daicos was the Pies B&F in 2023.

So yes, all 3 are in the top 10 most important across the finals series.

Add in De Goey for his outstanding Preliminary Final, Pendlebury because he's Pendlebury, and Jack Crisp who was awarded the best finals player across the 2023 finals series, and I'd have them as the top 9.

But as you suggest, the Pies are an evenly performed outfit, and others may have different opinions.

The point stands - good teams turn over their lists at a high frequency. Which is what we've continued to do in 2026.

 

[Fadge]

In 2020 Pies had: Moore, Howe, Pendles, Sidey, DeGoey, Crisp, J Daicos, Quaynor, Maynard, Mihocek, Elliott, Cameron....all stil there.

Who on earth are the equivalent types on the current list you can count on in 2028-29?

LOLOLOL.

Regardless of the fact J. Daicos and Quaynor will still likely be on the Pies list in 2028/29 - they'll be in their late 20's - are you really questioning how a team can possibly turn over 10 players in an 8 or 9 year period?

Oh boy.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

I love the way you've framed that......I'm not sure Darcy Cameron, McStay or Josh Daicos have received a coaches vote in finals for their entire careers, let alone in 2023....but nice of you to pop them in the 'most important' category to suit your argument. So does your top-10 from 2023 include Pendles? Sidey? Quaynor? DeGoey? Crisp? Moore? Howe? Mihocek? Maynard? Elliott? Cox?

Pies beyond 2026 look pretty cooked. You've got 1 x bullet left in the gun if you get a miraculous run with injury, which is unlikely given the age profile of the list.

It's really hard to see the future when you have no high end draftees on the list, no elite youth outside Naicos and Tasmania coming in to dominate the draft. There's nothing wrong with that as the Pies have been very good, but it's looking really really dire and it's illogical to think otherwise.

Where do the quality players come from?

Snooze fest. Its like you came in and posted but ignored all the previous posts. The quality players come from the same place they have come from over the last 25 years. Trading and the draft.

 

[Fadge]

Snooze fest. Its like you came in and posted but ignored all the previous posts. The quality players come from the same place they have come from over the last 25 years. Trading and the draft.

LOLOL.

How's the post?

'How can you possibly replace 10 players over an 8 or 9 year period?'

I guess it did take them over 3 decades to recover from losing Michael Roach, Kevin Bartlett and Jim Jess...

Oh boy.

 

[Red_man2008]

Here you are Fadge maybe you should hang out here with your kind.

 

[Carringbush2010]

On face value I can understand the 'cliff'

However, Collingwood do do transition / rebuilds / regeneration whatever term / word you wanna use differently than most.

If you look at our history of flags, rarely have we had the better talent than the opposition. 2010 most likely, even then we were up against an almighty superbly balanced Saints team. Probably their best team since 04 05 then back to 70 71.

Even 1990 the Bombers list was arguably better, certainly 58 we were nowhere near that Demons side for talent.

I guess you've already summised my point.

What Collingwood does differently to most is development of game with the youth they've got, then trade in players that they believe can enhance their game. Yeah I know it sounds like 'all teams do this', however the point is that we don't resort to the draft or youth for want of a better term when it looks like a downward turn, like now.

2025 was all chips in to win the flag, hence not much youth getting game time.

2026 is likely the year that our youth will get more game time, as has been pointed out many times in this thread. We'll find out how they develop.

We've done this over the course of the competition, or since 'drafting' came in.

A lot of clubs, DO resort to the youth they've got or the draft and basically concede they're 'rebuilding' from the bottom. North after their prelim runs that ended in 2015 then offloaded Boomer Harvey. Didn't end well and still no fruit.

We don't do that at Collingwood. What Collingwood does is NOT believe that list talent is the be all and end all, or more accurately not as much as other clubs, hence why we've won so many flags NOT being the best list in it. 2023 is a great example.

If you wanna get technical, well we 'rebuild' every year, like every club, it's how you define the term I guess.

43 Grand Finals appearance is testament to the method, 6 this century, despite supposedly falling down the ladder we always find ways to contend, like after 2021 when supposedly the cliff came.

 

[doppleganger]

In 2020 Pies had: Moore, Howe, Pendles, Sidey, DeGoey, Crisp, J Daicos, Quaynor, Maynard, Mihocek, Elliott, Cameron....all stil there.

Who on earth are the equivalent types on the current list you can count on in 2028-29?

Hindsight hero stuff

In 2020

• D.Cameron was a 25 yr old trade from Sydney who had played just 11 games
• J.Daicos was a late 50s draft pick that hadn't put it together
• IQ was a draftee who had barely played 10 games
• Elliott was a 28 yr old mid sized forward who was to that point a 30 goal a year type in a good year, when he wasn't injured

Notice back in 2020 that we didn't have a 23 yr old AFL MVP on the list, we do have that in 2026

The current gap is KPD, we don't have a 25 yr old established KPD coming through like we did with Moore.

 

[doppleganger]

LOLOLOL.

Regardless of the fact J. Daicos and Quaynor will still likely be on the Pies list in 2028/29 - they'll be in their late 20's - are you really questioning how a team can possibly turn over 10 players in an 8 or 9 year period?

Oh boy.

It is just silly stuff.

In 2020, Howe was the 29 yr old HBF, in 2026 it is now Maynard
In 2020, Maynard was the 24 yr old HBF, in 2026 it is IQ now
In 2020, IQ was a draftee who barely played, we have many potential HB options who have barely played...we need one to develop.

That is exactly how you turn over your backline.

And in 2020 we didn't have a 23 yr old AFL MVP on our list, we do in 2026

 

[Obeanie1]

If you could be bothered you will note previously that i rate Collingwood as one of the few clubs capable of bucking the trend of a long rebuild as they are a destination club.

That doesnt mean they never need to rebuild.

Anyway. You trot off and enjoy your silly little fantasy world and silly little posting games. You are all very defensive when it comes to the state of the Pies list.

Simply stating the obvious isnt venting.

If you have anything meaningful to add......please do. I wont hold my breath.

 

[Obeanie1]

On face value I can understand the 'cliff'

However, Collingwood do do transition / rebuilds / regeneration whatever term / word you wanna use differently than most.

If you look at our history of flags, rarely have we had the better talent than the opposition. 2010 most likely, even then we were up against an almighty superbly balanced Saints team. Probably their best team since 04 05 then back to 70 71.

Even 1990 the Bombers list was arguably better, certainly 58 we were nowhere near that Demons side for talent.

I guess you've already summised my point.

What Collingwood does differently to most is development of game with the youth they've got, then trade in players that they believe can enhance their game. Yeah I know it sounds like 'all teams do this', however the point is that we don't resort to the draft or youth for want of a better term when it looks like a downward turn, like now.

2025 was all chips in to win the flag, hence not much youth getting game time.

2026 is likely the year that our youth will get more game time, as has been pointed out many times in this thread. We'll find out how they develop.

We've done this over the course of the competition, or since 'drafting' came in.

A lot of clubs, DO resort to the youth they've got or the draft and basically concede they're 'rebuilding' from the bottom. North after their prelim runs that ended in 2015 then offloaded Boomer Harvey. Didn't end well and still no fruit.

We don't do that at Collingwood. What Collingwood does is NOT believe that list talent is the be all and end all, or more accurately not as much as other clubs, hence why we've won so many flags NOT being the best list in it. 2023 is a great example.

If you wanna get technical, well we 'rebuild' every year, like every club, it's how you define the term I guess.

43 Grand Finals appearance is testament to the method, 6 this century, despite supposedly falling down the ladder we always find ways to contend, like after 2021 when supposedly the cliff came.

Comment on the effect of the salary cap miscalcualtion and player dump?

That isnt normal list management. Its an abnornal event. An error caused it. But it did bring in fresh talent.

And IMO that hickup resulted in a bringing in a nice batch of picks and talent that boosted the Pies list akin to a mini reset. And that is one reason the Pies delayed any need for a more aggressive rebuild. And why the Pies list won a flag two years after losing the GF as opposed to the Eagles who retained most of their side far too long and their list got stale and regressed.

Collingwood doesnt stay down rebuiling very long. A year or three max. They draft kids and attract free agents and trades.

It still means they need to rebuild every now and again. That cant be avoided.

 

[Carringbush2010]

If you could be bothered you will note previously that i rate Collingwood as one of the few clubs capable of bucking the trend of a long rebuild as they are a destination club.

That doesnt mean they never need to rebuild.

Anyway. You trot off and enjoy your silly little fantasy world and silly little posting games. You are all very defensive when it comes to the state of the Pies list.

Simply stating the obvious isnt venting.

If you have anything meaningful to add......please do. I wont hold my breath.

But you don't give a rats remember?

 

[Carringbush2010]

That isnt normal list management.

Like I said, Pies do list management differently

And why the Pies list won a flag two years after losing the GF

If you mean 2023, two years earlier we finished 17th. 2008 we didn't play in the GF. Not sure where you're getting this from

It still means they need to rebuild every now and again

Like I said we rebuild every year.

 

[doppleganger]

Comment on the effect of the salary cap miscalcualtion and player dump?

That isnt normal list management. Its an abnornal event. An error caused it. But it did bring in fresh talent.

And IMO that hickup resulted in a bringing in a nice batch of picks and talent that boosted the Pies list akin to a mini reset.

Of the 2020-21 batch of kids

Macrae, Poulter, Henry, McMahon, Chugg, Ginnivan, A.Johnson, Draper, Murley, Dean are gone.

McReery, Naicos, McInnes, HHarrison are left, if those 4 end up making it, we have done very well...getting 2 kids each draft period to turn into 100+ gamers is solid.

It still means they need to rebuild every now and again. That cant be avoided.

That is the point, teams should be constantly rebuilding lists. This happens at the Pies.

 

[Fadge]

Comment on the effect of the salary cap miscalcualtion and player dump?

That isnt normal list management. Its an abnornal event. An error caused it. But it did bring in fresh talent.

And IMO that hickup resulted in a bringing in a nice batch of picks and talent that boosted the Pies list akin to a mini reset. And that is one reason the Pies delayed any need for a more aggressive rebuild. And why the Pies list won a flag two years after losing the GF as opposed to the Eagles who retained most of their side far too long and their list got stale and regressed.

Collingwood doesnt stay down rebuiling very long. A year or three max. They draft kids and attract free agents and trades.

It still means they need to rebuild every now and again. That cant be avoided.

So list management decisions that were out of Collingwood's control resulting in us contending for 3 flags in the following 4 years, winning one.

Jeepers.

Imagine how well we'll go when we are in control of our list management decisions!

 

[THE_GUN]

Venting? Lol.

Really dont give a rats actually.

Simply pulling up silly posters that think and pretty much gloat that their clubs never needs to rebuild.

Pies gor a nice uplift when they stuffed the salary cap and shipped out Trelor, Stevenson, Ginnaven and others. Forced a quick "re-stumping' instead of needing a rebuild. And they invested picks and cash into trades and players to perform now.

End of a generation and an era with Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Howe, De Goey and Elliot all close to the end. Last season for 3 of them. Take that quality out and where do the quality replacements come from?

You actually dont bother answering that. Wonder why? You point to irrelevant history and thats about it.

From now on teams need top picks to land top father sins and NGA kids. And top picks are few and far between for Collingwood and they wilk be even harder to come across with Tasmania coming in.

Then your team turns around and takes the reject that Collingwood didnt want
John West comes to mind

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Last June and a decade.

Is that all? How do we access the fifteen bonus years on top of that you guys managed?