Opinion What unpopular AFL opinions do you have? - Part 2

[Rich01]

I am going to say something now that is genuinely unpopular.

I admittedly didn't see him play that much as I only saw the last few years of his career and I was a kid at the time, but nothing in Wayne Carey's stats indicate he was an all time great. He was a key forward who, for the time at least, didn't kick that many goals.

A really good point you are unintentionally making. Stats never tell the whole story.

Carey played traditional CHF with Longmire the deepest forward.

When the game was there to be won, it was Carey that would take a big mark in a contest to push it forward or kick a goal. He was a team lifter, and when games were on the line, Carey more than often stood up and took control.

 

[RUNVS]

A really good point you are unintentionally making. Stats never tell the whole story.

Carey played traditional CHF with Longmire the deepest forward.

When the game was there to be won, it was Carey that would take a big mark in a contest to push it forward or kick a goal. He was a team lifter, and when games were on the line, Carey more than often stood up and took control.

It is interesting though that the stats really don't back this up. According to the stats at least Carey got above average disposals for a key forward of the era, but below the great key forwards of the era in terms of goals. Guys like Dunstall, Lockett, Ablett etc completely trouced him in terms of the goals kicked.

I do wonder if we had 2025 stats back in the 90's, where much more was recorded what those stats might tells us about Carey. A pity they don't exist.

 

[Rich01]

It is interesting though that the stats really don't back this up. According to the stats at least Carey got above average disposals for a key forward of the era, but below the great key forwards of the era in terms of goals. Guys like Dunstall, Lockett, Ablett etc completely trouced him in terms of the goals kicked.

I do wonder if we had 2025 stats back in the 90's, where much more was recorded what those stats might tells us about Carey. A pity they don't exist.

The stats don’t back what up?

That all aligns with Carey playing CHF and the others playing FF.

CHF generally in the play more and get more of the ball. FF usually less disposals and more goals.

 

[Chip Scab1]

It is interesting though that the stats really don't back this up. According to the stats at least Carey got above average disposals for a key forward of the era, but below the great key forwards of the era in terms of goals. Guys like Dunstall, Lockett, Ablett etc completely trouced him in terms of the goals kicked.

I do wonder if we had 2025 stats back in the 90's, where much more was recorded what those stats might tells us about Carey. A pity they don't exist.

GA stats weren't included. He had 17 in 2003 as a cooked old man. When he could move and had the use of 2 arms 92-96 he was the best. He slips a bit 97-1999. Was still a top 10, but not GOAT (in discussion).

 

[Gavin Excell]

GA stats weren't included. He had 17 in 2003 as a cooked old man. When he could move and had the use of 2 arms 92-96 he was the best. He slips a bit 97-1999. Was still a top 10, but not GOAT (in discussion).

I'd have Carey ahead of Buddy

 

[RUNVS]

The stats don’t back what up?

That all aligns with Carey playing CHF and the others playing FF.

CHF generally in the play more and get more of the ball. FF usually less disposals and more goals.

Maybe it was just because Carey was the first of what we consider a modern Centre Half Forward. Statistically he is pretty similar to Nick Riewoldt who was definitely a proper CHF

 

[Chip Scab1]

I'd have Carey ahead of Buddy

I explained it better earlier.

Carey was the best
Ablett the best highlights
Lockett the greatest figure
...
Buddy (ridiculous)
Lethal (despite his outrageous stats) was the greatest before the other 3 turned up.

 

[RUNVS]

Also to be fair I am including Riewoldt's and Carey's best season in terms of amount of goals kicked on average, so for Carey 1999 and Riewoldt 2009



There just is not that much difference statistically, in fact according to the stats Riewoldt and Carey are remarkably similar in a lot of areas.

 

[Chip Scab1]

Maybe it was just because Carey was the first of what we consider a modern Centre Half Forward. Statistically he is pretty similar to Nick Riewoldt who was definitely a proper CHF

View attachment 2502706

Twice as many frees for, I knew it.

 

[Chip Scab1]

Also to be fair I am including Riewoldt's and Carey's best season in terms of amount of goals kicked on average, so for Carey 1999 and Riewoldt 2009

View attachment 2502710

There just is not that much difference statistically, in fact according to the stats Riewoldt and Carey are remarkably similar in a lot of areas.

2 flags v 0 says it all. By your measure, Anthony Stevens was better than Paul Kelly (he wasn't).

 

[RUNVS]

2 flags v 0 says it all. By your measure, Anthony Stevens was better than Paul Kelly (he wasn't).

Never mentioned flags as flags is an awful way of determining how good a player is since AFL is not a one man game and who gets flags is often largely down to where a player was lucky enough to get drafted. Lockett never won a flag, but I don't think anyone is going to argue he was a worse player than Cameron Mooney.

 

[Chip Scab1]

Never mentioned flags as flags is an awful way of determining how good a player is since AFL is not a one man game and who gets flags is often largely down to where a player was lucky enough to get drafted. Lockett never won a flag, but I don't think anyone is going to argue he was a worse player than Cameron Mooney.

I have no idea what you're on about. You could have had Wayne and Longmire for $10k.

Carey's two flags were built off him, Mooney was a bit part player in a great team. You have to use it, because it matters (in this instance).

 

[Rich01]

Maybe it was just because Carey was the first of what we consider a modern Centre Half Forward. Statistically he is pretty similar to Nick Riewoldt who was definitely a proper CHF

View attachment 2502706

Yeah, statistically similar.
Spose that’s what happens when you just use basic stats to evaluate the impact and quality of a player.

Nick was a great CHF but Carey was the greatest CHF.

Impact on games. Big marks and goals at telling moments.

Unfortunately the stats won’t show you that.

 

[Cuzz09]

Not unpopular but its a shame players are often remembered by their later seasons rather than their peak.

Cousins was a gun, a machine but is remembered for silly things.

Gaff ditto

Even our amazing early 90s side can often be remembered for fading away in the late 90s

Real fans remember I guess

 

[RUNVS]

Not unpopular but its a shame players are often remembered by their later seasons rather than their peak.

Cousins was a gun, a machine but is remembered for silly things.

Gaff ditto

Even our amazing early 90s side can often be remembered for fading away in the late 90s

Real fans remember I guess

Also players are lasting longer these days so their twilight seasons are lasting longer. Buddy probably had 3 years at the Swans where he noticably could not do as much as he once did. Don't get me wrong, he was still handy but he was not the dominant force he once was, but in the past because careers were shorter odds are he only would have had 1 or 2 lower than standard seasons.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Yeah, statistically similar.
Spose that’s what happens when you just use basic stats to evaluate the impact and quality of a player.

Nick was a great CHF but Carey was the greatest CHF.

Impact on games. Big marks and goals at telling moments.

Unfortunately the stats won’t show you that.

Issue with statistics like these is that the game was a lot slower back then, decisions made at a slower pace (even if matches were higher scoring, fewer disposals per goal generally) that you can't comprae them

The 2009 Saints averaged 71 tackles a game, 392 touches, and 109 marks a game, they were a lot "busier" that allowed for Riewoldt to get on the end of this play and appear to be playing well with more stats (when that wasn't the case, there was just more play generally to be involved in).

The 1999 Kangaroos averaged 25 tackles a game (maybe Champion Data changed their definition of a tackle but I digress, the game was far less contested back then), 291 touches and 71 marks per game. Carey's 7.2 marks per game were more than 10% of his team's total marks per game, a greater proportion than Riewoldt's 9.6 marks out of 109.

Obviously you can never compare the stats for style of footy a decade apart that evolved quickly, and Riewoldt himself is probably harmed in the the bottom-end talent pool was better for the Saints and in footy generally in 2009 (investment into drafting and player development, state leagues being weaker in 2009 than in 1999 as there was some latent state league effects with expansion teams having come into the AFL a few years earlier, etc.), but it points to making these comparisons difficult.

It's difficult but certainly not solved by comparing statistics for wildly different game styles.

 

[Hawksboy72]

Hawthorn wont win a premiership under Sam Mitchell.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Maybe it was just because Carey was the first of what we consider a modern Centre Half Forward. Statistically he is pretty similar to Nick Riewoldt who was definitely a proper CHF

View attachment 2502706

I love Riewoldt as a player but he has maybe 2 things over Carey, his tank and at least when he cheated on his wife he did post football career.

Carey would have gotten 100 goals each year if he was CHF for St Kilda in 09 and 10

 

[RUNVS]

I love Riewoldt as a player but he has maybe 2 things over Carey, his tank and at least when he cheated on his wife he did post football career.

Carey would have gotten 100 goals each year if he was CHF for St Kilda in 09 and 10

Carey never got anywhere near 100 goals during a season in his career and it was a lot easier to kick a lot of goals in the 90's as a key forward than it was a decade later.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Carey never got anywhere near 100 goals during a season in his career and it was a lot easier to kick a lot of goals in the 90's as a key forward than it was a decade later.

CHF and FF were more distinct positions in the 90s than the idea of merely being a "key forward" has flattened positions, much like being a centreman and a ruck-rover or rover were distinct positions in the past, but obviously an inside midfielder is an inside midfielder these days.

Saying that Carey "didn't kick as many goals" is so far removed from understanding the point. He didn't play out of the goalsquare. Players like John Longmire (an actual full foward, and you know, now premiership coach) did that job.

 

[RUNVS]

CHF and FF were more distinct positions in the 90s than the idea of merely being a "key forward" has flattened positions, much like being a centreman and a ruck-rover or rover were distinct positions in the past, but obviously an inside midfielder is an inside midfielder these days.

Saying that Carey "didn't kick as many goals" is so far removed from understanding the point. He didn't play out of the goalsquare. Players like John Longmire (an actual full foward, and you know, now premiership coach) did that job.

Buddy was not a goal square player either, still kicked 1066 goals in his career.

 

[CakeEater]

Not my opinion, but I asked ChatGPT to tell me who was the worst 250+ game player at each club

“Least impactful 250+ game player” by AFL club

Adelaide Crows - David Mackay
Durable winger/half-back who never became a top-tier contributor.

Brisbane Lions - Luke Power
Played 282 games largely as a role player in strong teams.

Carlton Blues - Kade Simpson
Extremely consistent, but limited offensive impact across 300+ games.

Collingwood Magpies - Ben Johnson
Trusted defender whose longevity outweighed influence.

Essendon Bombers - Jason Johnson
Solid midfielder without extended periods as a genuine A-grader.

Fremantle Dockers - Michael Johnson
Key defender whose career was steady but rarely dominant.

Geelong Cats - Joel Corey
Important contributor, but benefited heavily from an all-time great midfield.

Gold Coast Suns - None
No 250-game players yet.

GWS Giants - None
Club too young.

Hawthorn Hawks - Brendan Ladson
Premiership role player whose output never matched game count.

Melbourne Demons - Brad Green
Inconsistent forward across a very long career.

North Melbourne Kangaroos - Drew Petrie
Reliable, honest key forward without elite peak seasons.

Port Adelaide Power - Justin Westhoff
Versatile and useful, but never a sustained top-line player.

Richmond Tigers - Shaun Grigg
Benefited from system and durability more than individual dominance.

St Kilda Saints - Sam Fisher
Long-serving defender who was solid rather than influential.

Sydney Swans - Jarrad McVeigh
Leadership and reliability carried his career more than elite output.

West Coast Eagles - Andrew Gaff
High-output runner whose impact waned significantly late.

Western Bulldogs - Daniel Cross
Tough inside mid with limited skill ceiling across 250+ games.

Collingwood lacking A.Rocca in that list

 

[EagleMan87]

There just is not that much difference statistically, in fact according to the stats Riewoldt and Carey are remarkably similar in a lot of areas.

I'm guessing you didn't rate Cyril Rioli very highly?

 

[RUNVS]

I'm guessing you didn't rate Cyril Rioli very highly?

Rioli's value can be seen in the stats though as he averaged very high tackle levels for a small forward.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Buddy was not a goal square player either, still kicked 1066 goals in his career.

How are you honestly this thick?

Yes because come the 2000's key forwards played interchangeable roles that some would come out of the goalsquare (including Buddy), but forwards and play was more active and mobile generally, in that Buddy played a lot of his career working up the ground but running back to the goalsquare in a way that no 90s player ever did because player roles were far more stratified in the tasks they were asked to do.

As a Swans fan you surely can't have forgotten the numerous times Buddy took marks within 30m of goal. Just because he worked up the ground didn't mean he also didn't take marks in the goalsquare.

Things become different over time, gee.