Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 5 - thread rules updated

[wannabejack]

"It is confusing and unpleasant that some countries, like India, the UAE, and a few others, condemned what they claim were our drone strikes on Putin’s residence — which didn’t even happen," Zelensky said during an online press conference with Ukrainian journalists.

"Where is their condemnation of the fact that our children are being bombed and people are being killed all this time? I don’t hear India, frankly, nor the United Arab Emirates."

 

[Aussie in exile]

Has to be aa doublespeak on top of doublespeak involved here somewhere. There's no way this entirely manufactured ludicrous claim could convince anyone. Even Trump, as much of a dumb campaigner as he is, at least has intelligence services to investigate on his behalf.

• Zero damage reported,
• Zero citizen media,
• A claim of drones when missiles are far better for the job (or assassinationb),
• Optics in favour of not perpetrating an attack
• Initial russian incidental reports in direct contradiction, I mean virtually P v not P level contradiction.

The concept of an attack on Putin is borderline impossible to entertain. The air defence systems would be worthwhile, as every time a system is destroyed near this location, another would need to be removed from the frontline to replace it. But the residence? We know it's a lie.

The claim is so laughably false, that even Trump doesn't believe it.
View attachment 2503694

So who believed it? India, UAE, Pakistan. Kneejerk press statements. Dumb reactions, but just kneejerk. At last check, even China had not bothered to care. We (Australia) didn't even bother with a statement (our media showed scepticism). And Trump kinda sortah said "that'd be bad if true", and will probably state its both true and untrue switching daily and thats fine logic by his calculation.

RF have made some mind-bogglingly stupid claims sometimes. They're still claiming Kupyansk to this day. But this residence attack story was never gonna hold water and they must have known that. There must be some gain in telling an obvious lie that they knew everyone would know was an obvious lie.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Yes China waiting patiently in the wings for putin to bankrupt russia and then the Chinese move in and help themselves to all that russian oil and gas.

 

[Baldur]

Even if it had happened, there is nothing to condemn, the enemy leadership is a valid target. Furthermore Russia has attempted to kill Zelensky.

 

[Andre]

Has to be aa doublespeak on top of doublespeak involved here somewhere. There's no way this entirely manufactured ludicrous claim could convince anyone. Even Trump, as much of a dumb campaigner as he is, at least has intelligence services to investigate on his behalf.

• Zero damage reported,
• Zero citizen media,
• A claim of drones when missiles are far better for the job (or assassinationb),
• Optics in favour of not perpetrating an attack
• Initial russian incidental reports in direct contradiction, I mean virtually P v not P level contradiction.

The concept of an attack on Putin is borderline impossible to entertain. The air defence systems would be worthwhile, as every time a system is destroyed near this location, another would need to be removed from the frontline to replace it. But the residence? We know it's a lie.

The claim is so laughably false, that even Trump doesn't believe it.
View attachment 2503694

So who believed it? India, UAE, Pakistan. Kneejerk press statements. Dumb reactions, but just kneejerk. At last check, even China had not bothered to care. We (Australia) didn't even bother with a statement (our media showed scepticism). And Trump kinda sortah said "that'd be bad if true", and will probably state its both true and untrue switching daily and thats fine logic by his calculation.

RF have made some mind-bogglingly stupid claims sometimes. They're still claiming Kupyansk to this day. But this residence attack story was never gonna hold water and they must have known that. There must be some gain in telling an obvious lie that they knew everyone would know was an obvious lie.

It’s to firstly delay negotiations, secondly to claim they wanted to do an agreement but now can’t and it’s Ukraines fault. Hoping that Trump will at least share the blame for it failing with Ukraine. Given Russia was never going to accept the deal worked out, they hope it frustrates Trump into just walking away. Unfortunately, they’ve enough evidence Trump isn’t going to use their refusal as justification to apply real pressure on the Kremlin, so it’s a low-risk, high-reward option for them. Even if Trump fully says it’s bullshit, who here things he’ll do any real action against Putin? It’d probably be yet another ‘two weeks or I’ll be really angry’ type ‘punishment’ that’s forgotten by then.

 

[Mobbs]

It’s to firstly delay negotiations, secondly to claim they wanted to do an agreement but now can’t and it’s Ukraines fault. Hoping that Trump will at least share the blame for it failing with Ukraine. Given Russia was never going to accept the deal worked out, they hope it frustrates Trump into just walking away. Unfortunately, they’ve enough evidence Trump isn’t going to use their refusal as justification to apply real pressure on the Kremlin, so it’s a low-risk, high-reward option for them. Even if Trump fully says it’s bullshit, who here things he’ll do any real action against Putin? It’d probably be yet another ‘two weeks or I’ll be really angry’ type ‘punishment’ that’s forgotten by then.

I guess my confusion is about why they'd use such a clearly false claim. I mean, they could simply have sent a few of their own drones towards the residence (at least into the friggin oblast!) and shot them down. That way they'd at least have some debris and some townsfolk videos.

 

[wannabejack]

I guess my confusion is about why they'd use such a clearly false claim. I mean, they could simply have sent a few of their own drones towards the residence (at least into the friggin oblast!) and shot them down. That way they'd at least have some debris and some townsfolk videos.

They’ve become so confident in the world believing their lies. It’s been working for so long.
Even one of their agents here came up with “was a Ukrainian attack on Putin's joint but not ordered by Zelesnky”.

 

[CM86]

None of this stuff means paedophilia, which was my question to Zidane.

But yeh man we've been through this. They moved orphans from the separatists territories, cause it's dangerous and shit conditions

Up to 1937 children returned now, when legal guardians collect them.
https://childrenofwar.gov.ua/en/

No legal guardians and they get Russian citizenship and adoption/foster care. What is your course of action in this case?

Do you have a name/source for a kid/now man that has been forced into the invasion army?


Reduce Ukraine's future population growth? That's a leap, most Ukrainians won't return home from the EU, as per German polling.
https://www.ifo.de/pressemitteilung...her-fluechtlinge-abhaengig-von-sicherheit-und
Almost every second Ukrainian refugee would be ready to return if Ukraine restored the 1991 borders, received security guarantees through NATO accession, got an EU accession perspective and improved labour market opportunities in the country and corruption is fought. Without even one of these conditions, only three percent of Ukrainian fugitives are ready to return.

Think that should be refugees*. Translation stuff

50 million in 1990. Now? well who knows, fertility rates dropped below 1 in the early 2000's. Probably around 20 million post war

When Bush declared(2008) that Ukraine(and Georgia) will be in NATO around 2/3 of the population were against it. Makes ya think

You ever engage, you just skip-step to talking points.

Ok, Without mentioning any other country, or any other excuse.
Do you think being LGBTQ+ should be legal or illegal? And why?

 

[barreness]

You ever engage, you just skip-step to talking points.

Ok, Without mentioning any other country, or any other excuse.
Do you think being LGBTQ+ should be legal or illegal? And why?

Yes I do. I have a very liberal social outlook

I don't care if economic left politicians take a somewhat conservative stance and win on it. This is a side point for me, class structures matter more than gender stuff.

After all Russia has basically what was Australian policy in the 80's/90's. Were we an evil immoral country then?

Iran would look at the west and say your women are so commodified that they are but sexual objects, don't claim morality to us. (Former foreign minister and the daily mail type areas today)

I can disagree with these stances but I'll not condemn them for it.

These type things are always used as an excuse for US intervention, they are not the real reason for doing so by any look at the historic record

 

[Zidane98]

Yeh that's not paedophilia

Oh a NY post article, UFO type areas. These things always happen in Britain(nonce island)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-long-standing-bitter-feud-putin-inquiry-told

So a blog post by a long time enemy and traitor. Seems a bit like Musk accusing that diver of being a pedo after being spurned.
I'm convinced

You must really despise defending Pedo Putin.

 

[Aussie in exile]

The Gargoylisim is really kicking in now with putin.

Putin says Russia will win war in Ukraine in New Year’s Eve address

Ukraine's Zelenskyy says he will not agree to peace 'at any cost'.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[barreness]

You must really despise defending Pedo Putin.

So.......kissing babies on the election campaign?

Bit weird but not a hanging offence. I'll throw it in the questionable bin with; Biden sniffing kids, Dalai llama sucking tongues, Tom Brady kissing his son on the lips.

But carry on, I know you've got the quota and you can get a few more in on this reply

 

[CM86]

Yes I do. I have a very liberal social outlook

I don't care if economic left politicians take a somewhat conservative stance and win on it. This is a side point for me, class structures matter more than gender stuff.

After all Russia has basically what was Australian policy in the 80's/90's. Were we an evil immoral country then?

Iran would look at the west and say your women are so commodified that they are but sexual objects, don't claim morality to us. (Former foreign minister and the daily mail type areas today)

I can disagree with these stances but I'll not condemn them for it.

These type things are always used as an excuse for US intervention, they are not the real reason for doing so by any look at the historic record

Ah, making LGBTQ+ 'stuff' illegal is just an excuse for US intervention, and not something you'd condemn.
And you use Iran as a way to support your moral position.

Totally cool. Cool cool cool.

 

[CM86]

So.......kissing babies on the election campaign?

Bit weird but not a hanging offence. I'll throw it in the questionable bin with; Biden sniffing kids, Dalai llama sucking tongues, Tom Brady kissing his son on the lips.

But carry on, I know you've got the quota and you can get a few more in on this reply

But you couldn't find a single thing to say about the current US President.
Must be his super clean record, and how there isn't any current and ongoing massive story around his connection to abuse of minors.

Stay stable and unbiased!

 

[barreness]

Ah, making LGBTQ+ 'stuff' illegal is just an excuse for US intervention, and not something you'd condemn.

Was it ever legal? Talking about Russia here I presume. Tassie only overturned sodomy laws in '97(I think)

Was a pretty wild story from Ukraine after the US backed overthrow, pride parades took place for the first(kinda) time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_Ukraine#2015_to_2022
On 6 June 2015, Ukraine's second pride parade was held in Kyiv.[118] The march was finished in less than half an hour.[119] The number of police protection far outnumbered the pride participants.[119] The venue for the march was only disclosed to the march's participants that had registered on its website.[107] During the march, five policemen were injured in scuffles after unidentified people had attacked the rally with smoke bombs and stones.[118] One police officer was admitted to intensive care.[120] 25 anti-gay activists were arrested.......

On 12 June 2016, Ukraine's third pride parade, dubbed the Equality March, was held in Kyiv without incidents.[125] The march of 1,500 people lasted about half an hour and was guarded by more than 5,500 police officers and 1,200 members of the National Guard.[125] 57 people were detained for aggressive behaviour.

Clearly not a mass wave of popularity

And you use Iran as a way to support your moral position.

Totally cool. Cool cool cool.

How can you misconstrue me so often. My moral position is very liberal, love the gays and trans etc

My political position, particularly with respect to other countries in which I have no say, is that's not what I judge them on*. It's used as a cudgel by the "liberal" west to overthrow regimes and bring destruction, you can surely see this?

*Within reason, obviously if they start murdering them in industrial death camps then yeh nah

N.B. Iran has some of the most highly educated women in the world and a liberal underground scene, this is more important than the theocratic rules which get invoked sometimes. It's certainly not a reason to bomb the shit out of them and go for a regime change.

It's like a dead Iranian woman killed by a mass US airstrike is better off than one that has to wear a headscarf on the bus? Freedom right

 

[CM86]

Was it ever legal? Talking about Russia here I presume. Tassie only overturned sodomy laws in '97(I think)

Was a pretty wild story from Ukraine after the US backed overthrow, pride parades took place for the first(kinda) time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_Ukraine#2015_to_2022
On 6 June 2015, Ukraine's second pride parade was held in Kyiv.[118] The march was finished in less than half an hour.[119] The number of police protection far outnumbered the pride participants.[119] The venue for the march was only disclosed to the march's participants that had registered on its website.[107] During the march, five policemen were injured in scuffles after unidentified people had attacked the rally with smoke bombs and stones.[118] One police officer was admitted to intensive care.[120] 25 anti-gay activists were arrested.......

On 12 June 2016, Ukraine's third pride parade, dubbed the Equality March, was held in Kyiv without incidents.[125] The march of 1,500 people lasted about half an hour and was guarded by more than 5,500 police officers and 1,200 members of the National Guard.[125] 57 people were detained for aggressive behaviour.

Clearly not a mass wave of popularity


How can you misconstrue me so often. My moral position is very liberal, love the gays and trans etc

My political position, particularly with respect to other countries in which I have no say, is that's not what I judge them on*. It's used as a cudgel by the "liberal" west to overthrow regimes and bring destruction, you can surely see this?

*Within reason, obviously if they start murdering them in industrial death camps then yeh nah

N.B. Iran has some of the most highly educated women in the world and a liberal underground scene, this is more important than the theocratic rules which get invoked sometimes. It's certainly not a reason to bomb the shit out of them and go for a regime change.

It's like a dead Iranian woman killed by a mass US airstrike is better off than one that has to wear a headscarf on the bus? Freedom right

And that's bad, right?

Not a handwave thing, not something you avoid condemning etc.

Tasmania 30 years ago had bad policies that you oppose and agree needed to be change, due to the harm they were causing to their population.

Or as long as it's better than Iran?

 

[barreness]

But you couldn't find a single thing to say about the current US President.
Must be his super clean record, and how there isn't any current and ongoing massive story around his connection to abuse of minors.

Stay stable and unbiased!

Jeez, I took three examples.

Trump is so deep in the sauce that it doesn't really need repeating; Grab em by the pussy, backstage at Ms America, his own daughter, Epstein to the eyeballs.

Did you see the recent one about him having a girl killed after raping her? not proven but it's floating around.

You see what you want to see here man

 

[CM86]

Jeez, I took three examples.

Trump is so deep in the sauce that it doesn't really need repeating; Grab em by the pussy, backstage at Ms America, his own daughter, Epstein to the eyeballs.

Did you see the recent one about him having a girl killed after raping her? not proven but it's floating around.

You see what you want to see here man

Of course, no point talking about Trump.​

But that Zeleskum! Need to call that out. And NATO, don't even get me started!​

​

It just sucks that Putin is tarred with this anti-LGBTW+ stuff...​

 

[barreness]

And that's bad, right?

Not a handwave thing, not something you avoid condemning etc.

Tasmania 30 years ago had bad policies that you oppose and agree needed to be change, due to the harm they were causing to their population.

Yes it's bad, I agree

Or as long as it's better than Iran?

You don't understand what I'm saying.

I don't agree with these policies, it's also not a reason to cast them as evil.
Can you see the blood lust around for Putin and Russians in general? This feels like early 2000's and Iraq/Muslims

 

[CM86]

Yes it's bad, I agree

You don't understand what I'm saying.

I don't agree with these policies, it's also not a reason to cast them as evil.
Can you see the blood lust around for Putin and Russians in general? This feels like early 2000's and Iraq/Muslims

Why is it bad?

 

[barreness]

Of course, no point talking about Trump.​

But that Zeleskum! Need to call that out. And NATO, don't even get me started!​

​

It just sucks that Putin is tarred with this anti-LGBTW+ stuff...​

This thread is covered with that stuff, forgive me for offering a counterpoint

 

[CM86]

This thread is covered with that stuff, forgive me for offering a counterpoint

I don't. Because it's just part of the whole with your obsession.

 

[barreness]

Why is it bad?

Illiberal, forces people to hide, etc you know this

Righto with all the socratic questioning you love.
What are your politics? Soc dem, dem soc, liberal, green lib, commie?

I have you pegged as a reformist soc dem. Some would consider this counter revolutionary(leftist infighting and so on)

But more importantly(with respect to this thread), what's your opinion on foreign policy? Realist or Idealist
I'm getting a idealist with great man theory; the **** Trump, Putin, and the big sheik in Iran

This is where we are disagreeing. I take a far more realist stance and think great man stuff should be thrown out; material conditions, dialectics, and so on

 

[barreness]

I don't. Because it's just part of the whole with your obsession.

Must admit, I've gone far too deep on this war

 

[CM86]

Illiberal, forces people to hide, etc you know this

Righto with all the socratic questioning you love.
What are your politics? Soc dem, dem soc, liberal, green lib, commie?

I have you pegged as a reformist soc dem. Some would consider this counter revolutionary(leftist infighting and so on)

But more importantly(with respect to this thread), what's your opinion on foreign policy? Realist or Idealist
I'm getting a idealist with great man theory; the **** Trump, Putin, and the big sheik in Iran

This is where we are disagreeing. I take a far more realist stance and think great man stuff should be thrown out; material conditions, dialectics, and so on

I'd argue that you and I were both almost identical in our idealism and political positions.
But what changed was when you moved from correctly opposing Western imperialism, to you being tricked into thinking you're opposing Western imperialism by supporting Western imperialism from Putin.

As I've attempted for years and days to engage with you on this, as I've seen the same radicalisation happen to a handful of other people I respect and care for. I've given up trying to find a way with you.

My close family member was a lot of work, but is now 'neutral' compared to praising of Putin's actions.
One of the best ways of reaching them, was to address the impact on children.

Unfortunately it's deaf ears for you for whatever reason.

So yes. You think you're being realistic. But in any other conversation if I explained to you that an invading force is taking children and distributing those children amongst their population, you'd understandably oppose it.
But because it's Russia doing it, you defend and support the displacement of children as a necessity.


I've no idea how to reach you or help you. And I don't think I care to anymore, because your beliefs are now so warped that I don't think you'd even recognise yourself if you addressed yourself.