Autopsy Round 1 v Richmond - Blues go down by 43

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A little late to the party, my two cents:

Postives:

- Marchbank, Elite intercept mark, great body work. Disposal/ Decision making with ball in hand lets him down
- Plowman, thought he was very average last season. His best game in Navy Blue last night, really looked solid.
- Kruezer, looks fit and firing, also hit the scoreboard.
- Rowe, I for years have hated him in the side. Mentally slow, terrible skills etc. Did his job as the Full Back last night, spoiled relatively well and kept the ball out of his area.
- 21 & Unders, Whilst the losses hurt and hurt hard I have to have trust in Bolts & SOS and at least the kids gained some valuable experience. SPS, Macreadie & Pickett all showing something throughout the game.

Negatives:

- Murphy, was shocked to see at the end of the game he had it 35 times. Think that speaks volumes to the impact he has on games. First instinct seems to be to get it and turn backwards or in a circle before throwing a handball. CP numbers look alright but he just isn't the damaging mid he once was, has little to no impact on games and hasn't for a while.
- Curnow brothers, thought it might be easier to lump them together. Ed for too long has got by on 'trying hard'. Simply isn't mentally or skillfully close to AFL standard, would love to have his work rate with Gibb's skills. Charlie was really disappointing, perhaps harsh but he was the only 20-21 year old or younger that didn't look promising tonight. I know most on here think he may be Kouta mark II, as long as he isn't Ed II in a bigger frame.
- Docherty & Simpson, two of our better players and leaders. I've seen this from Doc before, his disposal and defensive work rate has always been below par in my book and last night he was quite poor. Simmo's game was much more uncharacteristic, some poor decision making, skills were terrible and some of his 1 on 1 contests were very 'un-simmo like'.
- Match Committee, we all knew what to expect from White, Thomas & Armfield and they served it up. Minimum impact, minimum defensive pressure and their 'experience' didn't stop them from making dumb mistakes and turning the ball over. Also went into the game far too tall & with no midfield depth. Some of Kerridge, Palmer, Sumner, Cuningham needed to play.

Overall:

- Think we are as close to a certainty for the spoon as possible this year but that is irrelevant. Game was extremely frustrating to watch, we simply do not have the skills to play the game style we do, short chipping by foot and a high defensive press. It's a recipe for turnovers and goals out the back. Staggering to believe so many players with low footballing IQ and skill by hand and foot all made the AFL system let alone are on the Carlton senior list. These next few years will be extremely trying, patience will be required and wins will be few and far between. Another 2-3 years adding in high end, elite young talent through the draft and throwing some $$ at some FA will have us right back where we need to be. Look forward to seeing this and last years draft crops with 50 games under their belt and 2-3 pre-seasons. #trusttheprocess Go Blues.
Watch a replay. Murphy was great. In every contest. Big tackles, lots of clearances and with basically no support.
 
I can only see positives from here ... I rewatched the replay. Bolts knows who has to go .... What we saw last night was as someone put last night (probably buried 400 pages back), greens shoots like the amazon in spring.

I have never been so happy about a 40 point loss. The kids had a crack. Older players got found out. We never gave up. It was a win without the 4 points.

Absolutely agree.
We had about 8 howlers that directly lead to goals for the tigers, but only got one in return (gibbs intercept in the first quarter). Remove them, and it was actually quite a close contest.

Shame everyone is bagging casboult. The service to him was terrible. Saw heaps of leads get ignored. Our vision coming out of half back has to improve.... Heaps.

Man, let's call a spade a shovel. The best players should play. Period. Fortunately, that means more youth should be playing next week :)


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I'm leaning more and more towards Weiters as a forward. Not just for now, but long term.

Marchbank and Plowman will be regulars from here on out. Macreadie showed enough to think he can come on down the track (possibly as soon as next year). Rowe has a few years left, and holds his place while Macreadie develops. JGM is cheap depth, persist with him as long as he's showing progress (as a last resort, if he gets sick of playing reserves he potentially gets us an OK pick as a ready-to-go KPP in a trade).

Then we can look at Weitering and Silvagni up forward, Kreuze spending the occasional spell up there, and McKay coming through in a year or two's time. Ben Silvagni also on the cards in a couple of years. Casboult holds a spot while McKay is developing.

Jaksch is the wild card, part of me still hopes he can get his head in the right space to play AFL footy.

DEF: Marchbank, Plowman, Rowe, Macreadie (developing), JGM (depth)
FWD: Weitering, Silvagni, Casboult, McKay (developing), Jaksch (please...)
RUC: Kreuzer, Phillips

The ones in bold are long-term options with 10-12 years of good footy ahead of them. Would like to see another ruckman brought in at some point very soon, which means we can focus on mids with the occasional "best available" KPP drafted when they present.

Yeah I tend to agree. I understand that Weiters looks like he has the potential to be an all-time CHB...But if we've got a solid back line without him, and have a need up forward, it just makes sense for him to play there. Particularly given how hard it is to find quality key forwards. He could easily become an AA quality key forward and can always go back when needed anyway.

It's amazing to think we could be sitting here in 3 years time with 6 AFL quality KPs into the side between Weitering, McKay, Silvagni, Plowman, Marchbank and Macreadie.
 
Please forgive the intrusion. Trusting Blues supporters don't get too down after last night. It's going to be a long year but you've got some good young talent coming through so there's a future!

My question is this: What on earth happened to Daisy Thomas?

He came from Collingwood with such high hopes and doesn't seem to have performed at Carlton at all. We know he can play - his years at Collingwood proved that. So what happened to him????
 
I can only see positives from here ... I rewatched the replay. Bolts knows who has to go .... What we saw last night was as someone put last night (probably buried 400 pages back), greens shoots like the amazon in spring.

I have never been so happy about a 40 point loss. The kids had a crack. Older players got found out. We never gave up. It was a win without the 4 points.

Definitely a step in the right direction. Just have to make sure we keep heading that way
 
I thought the umps were fine last night

Yep....

Accept for :

1. The ball that bounced before Cotchin marked it in the first quarter
2. The out on the full that should of been Carlton's free
3. Silvagnis mark that should of been paid and wasn't.

Sarcastically Speaking here of course

Thought the umpiring was a disgrace.
 
Murphy was a gun last night ... his DE was sheit but that was to be expected after his lay off last year then xmas break. I'll take his 35 touches every god damn day of the week.
 
Please forgive the intrusion. Trusting Blues supporters don't get too down after last night. It's going to be a long year but you've got some good young talent coming through so there's a future!

My question is this: What on earth happened to Daisy Thomas?

He came from Collingwood with such high hopes and doesn't seem to have performed at Carlton at all. We know he can play - his years at Collingwood proved that. So what happened to him????
Relied on physical attributes at Collingwood. Has lost those and is no longer any good. Slow. Not very agile. Does some dumb things (choosing to bump instead of tackle). He's still a professional, runs both ways hard and puts in. Just hasn't adapted to not being able to play like he used to imo.
 

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Please forgive the intrusion. Trusting Blues supporters don't get too down after last night. It's going to be a long year but you've got some good young talent coming through so there's a future!

My question is this: What on earth happened to Daisy Thomas?

He came from Collingwood with such high hopes and doesn't seem to have performed at Carlton at all. We know he can play - his years at Collingwood proved that. So what happened to him????

He came to Carlton broken. And had a mate called Mick endorse a huge contract telling us that everything was going to be fine.

Thats what happened.
 
*cracks knuckles*

I'm so sorry about this, here's a song to make the read a little lighter:



Agree. No to dropping McCreadie. This kid has ability. Let him find his range in the firsts. One game...and he gets dropped ?

McCreadie needs to stay in. This kid will get better and better.

If Macreadie gets dropped after one game then we may as well throw the rebuild process in the bin right now.
He was an emergency, and he played as a 4th or 5th defender. Let him go back to the VFL and dictate more in a couple of games while we figure out a better way to structure (eg. move on from Rowe, settle our defensive shape and midfield pressure).

It does zero for his confidence to be dropped on guys like Rioli and get towelled for change of direction at ground level despite his athletic prowess. Reminds me of Waite in his second year, except we never asked him to do that.

Don't get the hatred of Rowe. He did a job and did it very well.
Agree for the most part, though gandaal made a good point about him being poor at ground level, and he did make a particularly poor effort while being the last man when we left the gate open. You can argue he was under the pump, but that's not an excuse.

All of that said, compare his ground level efforts to that of Casboult, who regularly went to his knees and then immediately forgot how his arms worked. Boy did he have a terrible first half.

Speaking of...

Would have liked him to get involved a bit more, but overall i think he played his role as that 3rd tall/ruck.

This is how it should be...us using Weitering and SOSOS as our focal points, with Casboult just playing a role up there.
How often did Levi actually draw the spare defender compared to other forwards? Weitering copped that treatment plenty, and when a defence holds it shape it's going to happen to every play regardless, there's just a slim chance that Levi is going to hurt someone when he gets a run up.

Balance that with his ruck work and the litany of mistakes, slow movement of possession and occassional outright gumming up the work of others to get into/find space, and he should be in the firing line. Those who are suggesting Phillips as the replacement are in fantasy land, regardless of last year's selections.

Ball drop much better and he ran in a straight line to goal.
Still a shade fluky for my liking, but to get a ball 50+ m you need to know how to ride the hook your hip naturally takes your leg through, whether that be aiming to the right a little as a right footer and riding it in, or getting more of a slice off the boot.

Levi seems to be getting more of a slice, which I see as the riskier prospect.

Love Dangles, but it appears that the game may have gone past him.
I'd play Cuningham next week in his place.
One of the 4 or 5 deck chairs that will be rotated through the team throughout the year .
Such is life in the early stages of a rebuild .
Lots of willing young talent at the club now and that's where we should concentrate our attention and effort .
One of many outside-leaning players last night who probably had their possession count down about 25% because the ball wasn't being fed out properly.

The biggest culprit of that was Murphy. Wonderful that he won some contested ball for his own self-belief, but it left him disposing under pressure (sometimes a hand on him, sometimes his space quickly closed down), and he regularly shot handballs at players feet/knees. That's not good enough at AFL level, and it seems to be a regular problem in our team. I don't entirely blame him for this, as the average midfielder now dwarfs him, but he needs to accept that he's going to be more of an outside player if he wants to help the team move the footy well, and back his team mates to do the basics right.

As an aside, I'm genuinely worried about how our skill drills recreate this so they can develop their reads and ability to weight passes by hand and foot, the ability of our blokes to shake an on-coming tackler by getting them a bit off-balance, as well as how to better read their opponents to prevent them from doing the same thing.

Murphy is the king of a maddening version of 'see ball, get ball' at Carlton, and it's long been to the detriment of his game. The day where I regularly see him shepherd his free team mate instead of leading his opponent to the footy or knock the ball on when he has a free team mate instead of taking possession with a bloke right on his tether, I know he'll get an AA selection. This is the number one thing coaches should be telling him every week, because he can then spread the message in his role as captain, lead by example, and unlock our entire midfield and stoppage setup.

Not sure Kerridge is the answer.... Disposal is a massive let down at the moment and turnovers are killings us.
Compare his role with that of White's original purpose on the night, especially how much it buried our midfield rotations by doing so. That reads like an upgrade to me.

But we're ok with thomas' disposal. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer to play others but I can't see how Thomas is in front of kerridge
Of course it isn't but focusing on him when others were worse is just lazy.
Our midfield group as a whole were putrid and largely couldn't care less about tracking back to help our defence.. what is truly embarrasing is Cripps, Gibbs and co with their hands on hips while their direct opponent charges off into space with the ball.
Is that now the criteria? His first 10 minutes were okay but after that woeful. His tackling and attempted bumps were embarrassing
This is not how players should be rated.
The Daisy bias is the worst its ever been at the moment. Both he and Kerridge should playing next week, especially considering how Thomas supported the forward group, the defensive group and the midfield in one game despite how poorly each was doing in terms of running numbers into space, mopping up the ground ball and getting the footy to the outside respectively. His role last night was highly dependent on others doing the contested work well and with a smart use of their numbers, whereas instead they all charged at packs rather than setup to support at ground level/on the outside.

That left Daisy, Docherty, Simpson, Armfield, Pickett, Smedts and SPS with a huge amount of turf to cover, compared to closer to 10 players for Richmond performing the same role. We got sucked in bad.

Again, I thought Thomas got better after the first 10 minutes, and I'm pretty sure he laid a magnificent (and fair) bump that left a Richmond player reeling for some time. Thomas should be part of a group with Docherty, Simpson, Buckley, Kerridge and Ed that provides defensive cover and run, as well as midfield rotation. Not all in the same role obviously, but some can rotate through the stoppages, whereas others can rotate through the wings as needed.

Agree that Cripps and Gibbs not tracking back every time looks bad, but they also looked pretty cooked in these situations, which again brings us back to the perceived lack of outside run...

To use a horse racing cliché, we had no luck whatsoever on the night. However, at the end of the day, I don't think it was lack of midfield pressure that hurt us as some are suggesting, it was simply turnovers, and that's ok, for now. When you're turning the ball over, it gives the impression that no one is applying pressure.
We were killed by three things.

1. Skill Errors
2. Lack of outside run
3. Overwhelmed defence

1. Skill Errors
There were constant skill errors last night. Even from players like Docherty missing a pass by a metre and sending it out of bounds. The worst errors were the fumbles. Running over the ball, not picking it up clearly, dropping the ball from the hand. Some of these led to clear goals by Richmond.

2. Lack of outside run
We were too slow and let richmond run in waves outside the packs last night. We never got the ball when it spilled outside.

3. Overwhelmed defence
I think our defence was a little tall and there were too many entries by Richmond
As I touched on earlier in what is becoming the largest post/strangest dissertation of all time, our guys outside were probably down in terms of about 25% of the kind of possession you'd expect given the contested numbers simply because Murphy was playing too inside, while Cripps and Ed were being shut out of it a bit due to how well Richmond closed down the stoppages and spread.

I'd argue rather than pure skill errors, it was a lack of midfield intensity, both with and without the ball, that lead to a lack of a chain of possession on the outside. Richmond mids could do as they pleased because our guys weren't working smart, hard or cooperatively overall, which meant that they could target players freely and further clamp down our stoppage plays.

Then with the zip they picked in their side, they simply had to flick the ball out and they instantly had a numbers advantage on the spread.

Another couple of quick players and some team play in terms of trying to buy an extra couple of steps for each other, and suddenly Richmond would have had to mind more than their plan A, and would have been spread thinner and thinner as the game wore on.

This was particularly evident in defence, as many have touched on, which in turn brings me to my next blob of text:

I'd post an analysis but seems everyone has already done a very good job of it, even the Tiger fans have got it right.

Better disposal and need a medium defender down back? Come on in Gussy
We technically played as many as 4 medium defenders last night, so I'm not sure Sheehan is a step in the right direction unless it release Simpson to help us slightly further afield while putting selection pressure on Armfield and Kerridge to pull their weight regularly. That still leaves us with a lack of ground level zip in defence, however, so it's not really a structural solution at all.

Tuohy was not anybody who can play right on smalls.
What we are missing is that 185/189 cm player
We're either tall or small now
I really like Tuohy and believe he's a fine footballer, but Byrne will be a perfectly fine replacement long term.
Docherty's 185 or so, then there's Sheehan and Plowman's 191, but the other side of the kind of player you seem to be equating Tuohy to. In fact, Tuohy did an excellent job on small forwards, but you're right in suggesting against the elite agility/acceleration types, he was found a little lacking, and that's where Byrne did a better job.

In terms of who we have on the list to replace that, it's basically Thomas, Buckley, Cuningham and daylight right now. It's an area we need to address so this doesn't happen again should Byrne go down.

On a positive note, despite being a tall lineup, there were few if any times the Tigers waltzed into their forward line and walked the ball into goal like what happened against the Saints.
No, they just kicked it to the top of the square, brought it to ground, and everybody had a party there instead. Then there were all the goals over the top because they couldn't track back against the pacier types and either left the gate open, or their mate 1v1 in 30+ metres of space whenver we turned the ball over.

I don't blame any individual defender, but White and Macreadie should be replaced next week for the sake of being able to counteract basic strategies.

Weitering - Reminds me of golden-child syndrome. Similar to Pavlich, wherever you put this guy he is going to excel. Really confused as to how to use him in the future but I still hope he goes backline.
Riewoldt is an even better example, and I really hope we make the right call in the longer term, which is him playing down back.

I'm not convinced he will be kicking 60+ goals a year long term, and this needs to be counter-balanced with the impact he can have stopping 5-10 scoring opportunities a game and him getting the footy in his hands 20+ times a game to setup our run from HB. I think his net impact on the scorecard is higher at CHB compared to McKay, C.Curnow, SOS, Kerr, B.Silvagni, etc.

That's why the coaches see him as a swingman, and why we've got him up forward right now. When those names are more entrenched, he'll go back to defence on the regular.

Wasn't sure about smedts all preseason but I thought he played that boekhurst role link up player on the wing less speed than boek but better decision making and disposal hope he stays fit.
I had him right on the borderline, and it seems like he's eked out just enough fitness. Here's hoping it continues.

It's not a question of how good the lower level is. Whether it's WAFL, SANFL, NEAFL, - doesn't matter.
The point is that the kid has played against guys twice his size with AFL experience and a) is not scared to go in and b) gets his share of it
Fisher getting stuck in the bubble is not what we need. We need him helping the ball move quickly from the hands of Cripps, E.Curnow and Gibbs to further outside.

He can help with that, but he needs to accept that most of his work won't be quite at the coal face (like Murphy).


What if we traded him and drafted another SPS in his place?

Gibbs was good last night but at 28 does he really help us moving forward?

The crows first will be enough for Gibbs this year
Soapy's more on the mark here: a top 5 pick should be the starting point, with a first round pick and a player who is able to bring a medium-to-long term improvement to our 22 being the next foothold.

We really shouldn't be giving him up for anything less, and I'm sure Bryce understand that. He's worked hard all pre-season, and again last night, so I think he understands that Adelaide have to pay fair value and is at the very least making them less uncomfortable about doing so.


Sure he can, he's just returning from injury ATM (had a heart procedure IIRC). He'll be back into their 18 once he has some fitness under his belt.
We should be shaking that tree regardless, because guys like him, M.Kennedy, Setterfield, Wilson, Buntine, Tomlinson, Whitfield, Cumming, Perryman, Greene, Lobb and others are not going to be satisfied with hovering in the 15-25 salary and selection bracket for too long as it will stall their development and earning potential.

It's also not fun to be playing a position you're not naturally suited to and yo-yoing out of the team and losing out on match payments. Not all of those guys will go, but you can see that most of them are either competing with each other or with a well-established player to get a spot in the team, and they'd all improve us (some more than others).

We should be looking to work towards another GWS trade this off-season, as we can offer a couple of midfielders, a ruck and a small defender a good home.

SOS will look to trade back into the second round for sure.
Depending on how high our first round pick is and how the market for GWS players pans out, I think this could be on the cards, but the caveat there is how the NextGen Academy is set to work this off-season.

If bidding is available in the ND in 2017, then we might want to scuttle any second round pick GWS offers as it might be used up acquiring Penrith.

Didn't watch the game, but can someone tell me how our closely guarded game plan went.
We didn't pick a team to pressure the opposition consistently, and resultantly our counter-attack fell flat. That said, the ability of our key forwards and senior outside mids to engineer scoring opportunities was great, which gives me hope that when a few more runners come in, we can do both well.

If you made it this far, congratulations!
 
Have read all of the autopsy here. Pretty pleasant reading.

Everyone is basically on the same, and correct, page.

Everyone bouyed by our youth, which were terrific. Everyone more or less on the same page with the mid age and older guys and where they fit in. Fairly subtle differences in the main.

Basically we all want 10 to 13 young players in the team surrounded by our handful of actually good senior players and as few deckchair players as possible.

I'm one of the one's who want to "err" on the side of 1 or 2 extra younger players each week. Others want to "err" on the side of an extra 2 experienced heads.

On theory, i actually agree with the latter. On reality, on who those 21st and 22nd experienced heads are, i actually agree with the former.
 
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Yeah I tend to agree. I understand that Weiters looks like he has the potential to be an all-time CHB...But if we've got a solid back line without him, and have a need up forward, it just makes sense for him to play there. Particularly given how hard it is to find quality key forwards. He could easily become an AA quality key forward and can always go back when needed anyway.

It's amazing to think we could be sitting here in 3 years time with 6 AFL quality KPs into the side between Weitering, McKay, Silvagni, Plowman, Marchbank and Macreadie.

Honestly, I think Weiters is more than capable of becoming a 60-70 goal a year forward. Played through injury in round one of his second season, matched against the AA full back, and kicked three goals despite average delivery. Marchbank and Macreadie in gives us a brilliant opportunity.
 
To show I am listening to others :p I would do the following

Cuningham for Thomas. It would help with our inside work. He needs to find more ball but can't question work ethic and grunt

Buckley for White. Need more run out of defence and Buckley was quite good yesterday. Kids will love playing with him plus he isn't a young body. Works hard both ways

McKay for Casboult. He was impressive yesterday. Just needs games. Future star. Weitering McKay & Silvagni is exciting

Palmer for Armfield. More grunt, size in the midfield but can go forward as should Murphy & Gibbs

That's failry balanced isn't it? ;)

Williamson stood out for me and over the next 5-6 weeks I want to see LeBois Fisher & Polson added.

I'm half with you here Soapy. For me,

Cunningham for Thomas. Agreed.
Palmer for Armfield. Agreed.

The other two I disagree. For me,

Williamson for White. Replace a tall with a medium defender with speed, endurance and a football brain. Simpson, Docherty and Williamson to provide the run from defence.

Casboult stays for mine. I know you disagree, but I thought he was decent last night. Seemed to add something to his game with his back up ruck work, I think it suits him, I think it suits us atm. As for McKay, I'm in the corner of letting him get his games, fitness and goals in the VFL for a little while without adding the pressure that he will undoubtedly get from the fans to bag five goals a game. Id let him sit there and look to introduce him halfway through the season. IMO that's the best way forward for him.
 
Yep....

Accept for :

1. The ball that bounced before Cotchin marked it in the first quarter
2. The out on the full that should of been Carlton's free
3. Silvagnis mark that should of been paid and wasn't.

Sarcastically Speaking here of course

Thought the umpiring was a disgrace.

On the replay I thought the ball hit Cotchin's hands rather than the ground
and Silvagni's wasn't a mark, you could argue that Buddy or Riewoldt would get that call but it doesn't make it right
 
Martin was magnificent, but I'm surprised they didn't work him over a bit more physically. He seemed to have it pretty much his own way for the whole game.

Weiters, Marchbank (even with a few hiccups), SOS and Kreuz were all good. They have to relegate Thomas and Armfield.
 
You cannot have 2 bites at a mark and claim it if another player has had his own bite in between your 2. The End.
It depends on whether the umpire believes the second 'bite' to be merely an extension of the first. If you are a defender, you can't just be a mug and try to 'steal' another player's mark; that's what spoiling is for. It's up to the discretion of the umpire as to whether the player was in control of it or not, they can't exactly put a time limit on it and press a stop-watch or anything. Having said that, I never saw Silvagni's attempt so I can't judge whether it was a mark or not.
 
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Agree. No to dropping McCreadie. This kid has ability. Let him find his range in the firsts. One game...and he gets dropped ?

If Macreadie gets dropped after one game then we may as well throw the rebuild process in the bin right now.

Disagree with you both here. I don't think anyone is saying he's a write-off, but we need to find the right balance and structure as well.

At this point in time, picking three of Rowe, Marchbank, Plowman and Macreadie to play down back in the seniors, Macreadie is last in line. He'll get opportunities, but we don't need to shoehorn him into the backline if it means we get cut up by small forwards.
 
Gold Coast have had massive injuries

GWS played some mature players but they were good to very good players and contributed in a positive manner. They also played more kids then us and it doesn't seem to have hurt them

GCS did have a lot of injuries, but where GWS had it over Gold Coast was the mature, experienced bodies were far better than the spuds, ( for the most part ) that GCS chose initially. The GWS experienced players were far better. Coupled with the injury problem the Suns have had is why they have had to reset their list already.
 
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