No Oppo Supporters The Umpiring thread.

[Clems Knee]

Okay so there have been some melts over the umpiring in the review threads, particularly after the first quarter of the Derby and the first half of the Fremantle v North Melbourne game.

Righteo has suggested that there be a separate thread on umpiring decisions and bias so the review threads don't get clogged up with them.


So here goes.


I think the AFL has a problem with the quality of its umpiring. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

They do all they can to limit the commentary on umpires, by fining coaches and players who say anything and by the accreditation system for the media. And they do this because umpires are essential to the competition and they need to be protected, and because all fans, coaches and players look at the game with a partisan eye.

But by stopping any discussion, the AFL is turning a blind eye to the problems that have developed in umpiring.


Here are the problems as I see it:


1. Allowing Umpires with clear conflicts of interest

2. Possibility of gambling syndicates fixing matches through umpiring bias

3. Umpires making too many (honest) mistakes -

a) not being good by paying free kicks incorrectly, or​

b) missing free kicks that should have been paid.​

4. Difficulty in introducing new interpretations and rules.


I think that 4) is the only problem being dealt with loudly in the media. And it's the only one that settles down with time. 3a) gets talked about a bit, but the rest are ignored.


I'll ask two questions. If an umpire was involved in match fixing for a gambling syndicate, what would it look like? If an umpire was biased because of his past allegiances, what would it look like?

I think it would like the first quarter of the derby, or the first half of the North Melbourne game.

 

[G Mus]

Not suggesting that it is, but if you were to fix a game you do it early in the game so that it's less memorable

 

[E Shed]

Sometimes I think its easier just to treat it like professional wrestling.
Good guys bad guys, (West Coast are the people's heroes and the team of the landed gentry, we are the poor boys from the wrong end of town)
Set scripts - the underdog Bulldogs were the fairy tale last year and nothing was to detract from that.
Expansion teams with poor supporter bases are to be propped up at any cost to expand the franchise.

It all makes a kind of crazy sense if you watch that way and its far less upsetting. Just like politics. Its theatre to distract from what is going on behind the curtain.

 

[Freo Shark]

The difference is that West Coast's free kick advantage has been well documented. It isn't just observer bias. They actually do get a lot more free kicks than any other team. A lot.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...e/news-story/66893232c4234f095aeb3bcedb3bd45c
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...t/news-story/293b911d20f1a63fb5e141e1d4f1fb6c
https://thearcfooty.com/2016/09/14/do-teams-that-win-contested-ball-win-more-free-kicks/

 

[footyfix]

Just wondering if when they're looking at Fyfeys elbow they will be looking at how Vardy injured his arm?

 

[salim malik]

Sometimes I think its easier just to treat it like professional wrestling.
Good guys bad guys, (West Coast are the people's heroes and the team of the landed gentry, we are the poor boys from the wrong end of town)
Set scripts - the underdog Bulldogs were the fairy tale last year and nothing was to detract from that.
Expansion teams with poor supporter bases are to be propped up at any cost to expand the franchise.

It all makes a kind of crazy sense if you watch that way and its far less upsetting. Just like politics. Its theatre to distract from what is going on behind the curtain.

Thats the reason we hate Pollies ,the umps and the AFL admin , that **cking curtain that hides them from the real world.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Maybe we need to do a bit of reverse psychology. While I doubt there is an active conspiracy against us in the umpire circle, I think we (the Club) need to make a bit of noise like there is one, and make them over-react in our favour to be seen to be doing something about being fair. Just one extra free kick per game to Sandi in front of goal would be nice.

 

[footyfix]

Ok wrong thread for above question.
If umpiring was fixed it would look like umps influencing the momentum of the game. And arresting any run ons. It would be disguising it by evening up the free kick count where it has no impact. It would be getting Stevic to make sure it is not a Derby grand final at all costs and never putting him in a Freo game again until it needs doing again.

 

[sansian]

Just wondering if when they're looking at Fyfeys elbow they will be looking at how Vardy injured his arm?

If he gets any weeks off we should be using the Chris Judd elbow on Pav as precedent. Even with a cut requiring stitches, there was still not enough force in the contact.

Actually the more I think about it, the AFL is a bit a joke when it comes to officiating the games and dishing out penalties for offences.

 

[Ripper]

I think it would like the first quarter of the derby, or the first half of the North Melbourne game.

Or the entire 4th quarter of the sirengate game.

 

[holy diver]

Or the entire 4th quarter of the sirengate game.

Dropping the ball? The hardly ever used infringement.

 

[Purple_Voice]

Fun fact: West Coast are the only team in the competition to have the free kick differential (Frees For minus Frees Against) in their favour every year for the past 10 years straight

 

[Belnakor]

Dropping the ball? The hardly ever used infringement.

because it doesn't exist. its either incorrect disposal or the ball was knocked out in the tackle.

 

[Belnakor]

1. Allowing Umpires with clear conflicts of interest

is it true the umpire from last nights game? Mckerney? Has a wife who works at WCE and was the best man at Dean Cox's wedding? seems hard to believe.

 

[Purple_Voice]

is it true the umpire from last nights game? Mckerney? Has a wife who works at WCE and was the best man at Dean Cox's wedding? seems hard to believe.

It might be a reference to Leigh Fisher who was delisted by the Saints in 2009, re-rookied and delisted again in 2010. 3 guesses who was coaching Saints at the time...

 

[PurpleEyes]

Fun fact: West Coast are the only team in the competition to have the free kick differential (Frees For minus Frees Against) in their favour every year for the past 10 years straight

Last year it wasn't in their favour was in 2001 with -22 ... that is, over 15 years ago.

 

[Cobbler]

Umpiring is always a hard one to debate. That said blind Freddy could see that the 3 umpires we were given was always going to result in a lopsided free kick count.

I like many have a major disliking for a few specific umpires.

I mean Leigh Fisher? Surely with 9 games every week he can be given games other then ones coached by Ross Lyon.

My real gripe is the appealing for free kicks/over acting to receive one. Absolutely hate this part of the game. Every team has them and every team has moments where they do this, BUT the Eagles are really the worst. I would have to think it's been coached into them and I generally mean that.

Examples just from last night:
Any Darling free kick. Probably all there, but he's a solid unit and you'd think he gets hit by trucks the way he flops about and carries on.

Yeo. That free when Walters (you know that small forward that weighs what?) pushed him in the side and you watch Yeo not only go to ground but throw his hands up. You're natural instinct when off balance would be to prepare to land safely, his was to appeal, so he's looking for contact and an excuse to throw his arms up, dare I say it 'milking it'.

Giles. Another massive unit, feels contact in the back and lunges and falls forward. Think it was our man mountain in Logue (the 18 year old) who caused that damage.

All of their mids have clearly been taught to fall forwards to receive in the back decisions. This is also very noticeable, Priddis is shocking with it. He just drops at the knees and falls face first on too many occasions.

Dean Cox started this ability to over act and cry. It has continued with their brand.

Honestly if Sandiland's carried on, he's have a free kick in just about every contest. His non calls continue to baffle me. I'll also admit Walters plays for them, but it's as if they've drawn a line throw his name and he just can't get any free ever.

I'm possibly one eyed, but I'll admit it was something that definitely crept into Pavlich's game in his later years. Actually lost a touch of respect for him doing it, but when you break it down players probably do it for only a couple of reasons:

1) Because they've lost the ability to compete at a desired level (Pavlich, possibly Cox)
2) They're just no good at winning the ball themselves and have to plead for assistance (Thomas, Darling)
2) They're just exploiting the system until they're called out on it (Eagles players in general)

 

[imperial_oz]

is it true the umpire from last nights game? Mckerney? Has a wife who works at WCE and was the best man at Dean Cox's wedding? seems hard to believe.

This has been clarified many times but the AFL will never address the obvious conflicts of interest:

Margetts was NOT best man at Dean Cox' wedding but he WAS either a groomsman or a guest. He is, by his own admission a friend of Cox. He also attends West Coast preseason training to 'explain' the rules and what they can do to avoid giving away free kicks.

Then he umpires their games.

Leigh Fisher was publicly delisted by Lyon in a fairly humiliating manner. He has not forgotten or forgiven and crucifies Freo every chance he gets. His antipathy towards Lyon is well known yet the AFL allow him to umpire in Freo games in spite of numerous and blatant one sided umpiring performances.

There was a suggestion that Dalziell's partner works for West Coast but I have not been able to determine whether that is true or otherwise as yet.

The AFL needs to explain why they allow such obvious conflicts of interest, watch obvious different standards being applied to different teams and then claim there is nothing untoward about the match officials. It is absurd but I hold little hope that it will ever be addressed when too many people have too many fingers in the pie. Follow the money is usual cry here and plenty of people are making a quid out of the AFL to want to upset the apple cart

 

[Purple_Voice]

Last year it wasn't in their favour was in 2001 with -22 ... that is, over 15 years ago.

I have no doubt - I only went back 10 years and stopped because it was a round number

 

[gaskin]

The thing that shits me more than anything are free kicks not being paid both ways. Yes umpires are prone to mistakes and will miss things but not paying them when they are blatantly obvious and have been paid the opposite way should leave them open for criticism.

Conflicts of interest should be taken into account. I'm not as against Margetts as he hasn't been too bad to us the past couple of years but Dalgleish and Fisher are campaigners. Both absolutely ream us every time they umpire our games and surely this is something the AFL can't keep ignoring.

Add an extra field umpire if necessary or even give boundary and goal umpires the ability to help the umpires with a call if they are blind sided.


Righteo can we make this a no opposition supporters thread by any chance?

 

[gaskin]

Margetts was NOT best man at Dean Cox' wedding but he WAS either a groomsman or a guest. He is, by his own admission a friend of Cox. He also attends West Coast preseason training to 'explain' the rules and what they can do to avoid giving away free kicks.

IIRC he comes to the Dockers as well during pre-season. I'm pretty sure all clubs are visited by at least 1 umpire during pre-season to go over the rules and interpretations.

 

[mightymouse75]

There was stats going around last year about the massive discrepancy in frees for (not just Subi) that the eagles received over a 10 year period. All the competition were locked within 1 and half goals for and 1 and a half against. The eagles were a further 1 and half out from the entire comp. Would love to know how these figures looked just at Subi.
Not saying it's deliberate but something is going on, even if it is a subconscious thing.

 

[mightymouse75]

And I am so.sick.of it's a perth.thing. What a load of tripe. It is an eagles thing.

 

[Cobbler]

Does anyone know where the breakdown of individual umpire decisions can be located?

Would love to see what the breakdown was of last's nights game.

 

[Clems Knee]

There was a good article by the blogger who does the Arc, Matt Cowgill. He presented some great graphics, but imo didn't go far enough when drawing his conclusions.
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...ics-explains-free-kick-counts-2017-afl-season

Firstly he presented this

To me, this shows that there has always been a difference between home and away umpiring, but that the difference has increased to unprecedented levels since 2012.
It also shows that the game varies in how it is officiated (over umpiring or letting things go) but they are not related to this increasing differential.

Then he presented this chart:

Over 17 years, during which time teams went through cycles of being competitive and players have come and gone, the free kick adavantage for the Eagles at home has been between 1.5 and 44 times more than anyone else.
I am guessing that the free kick differential would be even greater over the last 5 years, based on the first graph.

There are a few possibilities here:
1) The team that is first to the ball and better performing gets more frees because they deserve them.
2) The team that puts its head over the ball and wins more contested possessions gets more frees.
3) The home team gets more frees because of the home crowd noise.
4) The Eagles are a special case because of some other reason - eg corruption or nepotism.

Cowgill proves 1) is wrong with this chart showing how West Coast and the Western Bulldogs got frees compared to how they performed over the 17 years. No relationship.

He showed there was a weak relationship between putting your head over the ball and getting a free kick. So for 2) it explains about 6% of the free kick differential.

Many on these boards seem to think that 3) is the answer. Apparently West Coast fans are really good at intimidating the umpires into giving them free kicks. In that case Fremantle, Adelaide and Port (when they don't have tarps) should have a similar advantage. They don't. Cowgill addressed this by looking at all the statistical causes for the free kick differential across the league since 2000, and then seeing how each team compared:

A few things: Fremantle isn't the worst treated team by a long shot - Brisbane and Sydney are. West Coast have a significant free kick advantage that is not explained by 1),2) or 3). This is where Cowgill stopped.

That leaves 4). So what can explain the special relationship between West Coast and the umpires? Is it all umpires, or just the ones with friendships with Eagles players? Do the Eagles' links with organised crime have anything to do with it?


Tldr; the free kick differential between home and away games is getting worse, and the Eagles are treated by umpires differently to every one else and it's not because of how they play, or the crowd.