Mega Thread #14 David Mackay - 14 possessions again

[adelaidecrows]

When was the last time Mr Incredibly Fast closed down an opponent?

that falls into the 1% category which he is notoriously poor for in recent years.

 

[Elite Crow]

Thing with DMac is this:

He's an experienced senior player who follows structures and knows our systems.

He's a role play, some glue, all teams need those guys

It's his contract that upsets people. He got a non-role player contract that does not reflect his value

Which is not the same as not having any

Nah the issue is the guy is an average inconsistent plodder who some how has got to 170 games and seems to receive favourable treatment.

 

[spenze]

that falls into the 1% category which he is notoriously poor for in recent years.

I've seen him chase, just never close the gap.

 

[adelaidecrows]

I've seen him chase, just never close the gap.

I've seen Charlie Cameron chase too and not close the gap. Sometimes players don't simply have the want at times to chase down an opponent because they don't want to gas themselves.

 

[adelaidecrows]

I've seen him chase, just never close the gap.

Question:
Why are we both arguing with each other about how bad Mackay is? We both clearly agree he shouldn't be in the side until he shows he is worthy.

 

[SugarShane]

The problem is people want to pick on potential not present output, hoping players like Knight Hampton (when fit) Seedsman (when fit) etc will be better than they are now and at some stage pass Mackay.

Go into 97 with that attitude and we'd have 0 flags.

Players don't get better at AFL by playing SANFL. Mackay is never getting better. By playing him over a development player we're maybe slightly better off on game day, but far worse off in 2 years when he's not best 22 and his replacements have had 1 or 2 tastes of AFL.

 

[Ramify]

1)



1) Nah.
I know I'm a newbie and feeling my way in here. At some time you would have had around 50 posts, too. None of mine have been personal attacks and never will be.
I wasn't sure what "troll account" means, but I suspected it's an insult, so I looked it up.
Troll: "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement." (Wikipedia)
I know myself and my intentions pretty well. I am not a troll, as above.
I read all the anti-MacKay posts and was really surprised how many were really angry and vitriolic towards MacKay. Instead of writing to everybody individually, I turned my wondering into a thread and people could give their reasons, or not.

2) this is even worse.
What have my reasons for following the Crows or even just football in general got to do with my asking, reasonably, why people were so anti-MacKay?
It's a fair question and I repeat, people do not have to reply, especially if they have nothing useful, positive or constructive to say.
Many who supplied reasons made good sense, even if I did not necessarily agree.

My thanks to those who did give their reasons (from which I've learned a lot about David MacKay!), and the funny replies, which do not include the two above.

Ill respond to point 2.

Im of the opinion that at least 70% of our supporter base are extremely comfortable with our output since 2000. Having been surrounded by these people for many of our homegames over the years and by observing their comments and behaviors Ive come to the conclusion that they attend our games and renew their memberships for no other reasons beside the fact that there is nothing else better to do on the weekend and that it makes them all warm and fuzzy to be part of something even if they dont really give a s**t as to what being a fully paid member of an AFL club should entail.

Im not going to point blank accuse you of having NFI as to why you support the Crows. I just put it up as a possible alternative to being a troll. Based on your OP I could suggest another possibility and that is that you have NFI about what constitutes an A-List player or that you are totally unaware of what builds a successful team.

Or you are simply a very level headed,passive aggressive data-miner who is genuinely curious as to why peolple dont believe in Flat Earth theory.

 

[Miss Vanessa]

So after 5 rounds I did a thing that looked at how all our mids were performing statistically speaking, and Mackay had actually performed pretty well. However, in the two losses his average stats were as follows:

Disposals: 14 (down from 17.6 across the first five rounds)
Contested Posessions: 2.5 (down from 6.0)
Intercept Posessions: 0.5 (down from 4.2)
Meters Gained: 278.5 (down from 338.3)
Goals: 0 (down from 1.0)
Goal Assists: 0 (down from 1.0)
Score Involvements: 1.0 (down from 7.6)
Tackles: 2 (down from 3.2)
Clearances: 0.5 (down from 1.6)

Marks and inside 50s he held steady, bounces he increased, but rebound 50s and one perecenters also dropped (can't find out exact numbers for those two though). The most damning stat I think is the drop off in score Involvements. In the first five games he really was involved in a lot of great plays... but in his last game against Melbourne he had 12 touches, 11 of which were uncontested, and he went at about 50% disposal efficiency. I think its fair to say his form dropped off a cliff in those two losses. Though he wasn't alone in playing poorly, having been dropped, how does one justify him coming back in?

I'm actually all for rewarding form. If he had returned to the SANFL and played well for a few weeks, and there were players in the ones struggling, I wouldn't mind seeing him working his way back into the team. But his two games against North and Melbourne were bad and he has done nothing to show he deserves his spot again...

 

[WetCrow1991]

Do you know why David Mackay never leads the team through the banner?

It is because he wouldn't be able to push through it.

 

[Runnin Blue]

Or you are simply a very level headed,passive aggressive data-miner who is genuinely curious as to why peolple dont believe in Flat Earth theory.

What do you mean...theory?

I think we shouldn't call a new poster a troll until they do something troll-worthy. Asking a question isn't.

Everyone knows some of our regulars are basically trolls and they still get a pass for some reason.

 

[Golumless]

I hate to let facts get in the way of a good whinge-fest but here they are:
so far this year on average:

Champion Data Ratings - 186 th out of 564 (official AFL player ratings)
Pressure Acts - 105 th
Total metres gained per disposal - 74th
Total metres gained - 112 th

These are not the stats of a terrible player. Not fantastic but not terrible either. Better than comp average in all.
On top of that he is said to be a great team man and good for club culture.
Fans do not see this at all. Culture is vital.

But carry on with your whinge-fest. Why let facts get in the way?

You are telling me that a wingman, who's one of their jobs is measured in meters gained is 112th? Especially factor in that the side he plays for is first on the table.

See those stats tell the exact opposite to what you are saying, Mackay is one of the worst wingmen in the league, if not the worst.

 

[Ramify]

What do you mean...theory?

I think we shouldn't call a new poster a troll until they do something troll-worthy. Asking a question isn't.

Everyone knows some of our regulars are basically trolls and they still get a pass for some reason.

Agreed. That is why I presented alternative options and why I think Flat Earth theory has more grounding than Dmacs slection this week.

 

[Golumless]

Anyway enough from me.
I do not normally get involved in this rubbish for a reason.
You people are incapable of seeing other perspectives even when based on logic.

I give in... you are all right.
Champion Data are morons. All our past coaches are morons. I am a moron. Stats are irrelevant even when devised by the AFL's head statistician after years of study and a PhD in the subject.
What was I thinking?

There is statistics, and there is understanding statistics.

Take the meters gained stat for instance - there is about 5-6 players a side that the stat isn more than it's a nice bonus to have, and yet Mackay - a 29 year old, 170+ games experienced is one of the worst at it in that group.

Comparing it to most players is just meaningless, him gaining more meters then a Talia for instance means 11/10ths of sweet * all. If you are amazed by that, it shows how s**t he is.

Compare to the rest of it: AFL player ratings is an incredibly flawed method of measuring performance, seeing it underrates defenders.
Pressure Acts - 105th is decent.
Meters per disposal - 74th is just smack bang in the meh category, especially seeing his overall rating is horrible for his position.

 

[hunteyes]

Because he's s**t

 

[CrowBloke]

Do you know why David Mackay never leads the team through the banner?

It is because he wouldn't be able to push through it.

Funniest reply in here. Thanks for the good laugh.

 

[Large 1]

Go into 97 with that attitude and we'd have 0 flags.

Players don't get better at AFL by playing SANFL. Mackay is never getting better. By playing him over a development player we're maybe slightly better off on game day, but far worse off in 2 years when he's not best 22 and his replacements have had 1 or 2 tastes of AFL.

To say players don't develope in SANFL is just moronic. We might as well pack up our reserves because they make no difference.

The problem with always going for potential is that tomorrow never comes. Your always replacing a player with someone who is worse but has "more potential".

The fact the the Crows have had four coaches some with great football minds and all with much greater experience than anyone on this board, who have all played Mackay indicates that perhaps it is the Bigfooty group think that is wrong.

But nah, what do they know. We clearly know better with our vast experience of a amature footy and couch surfing.

 

[SugarShane]

To say players don't develope in SANFL is just moronic. We might as well pack up our reserves because they make no difference.

Good thing I didn't say that then. I said players don't get better at playing AFL by playing SANFL. Sure a surgeon can develop his skills by practising on cadavers, but he won't become a great surgeon until he does it on a living person.

 

[Interloperer]

Mackay's career before this year can fit into 4 stages of various length.

* 2008-9 - Early promise, starting to show a bit by the end of 2009
* 2010-12 - Most games poor to adequate. A few moments of brilliance or demonstration of talent showing why he's on the list
* 2013-15 - Most games poor to adequate. less moments showing what he's capable of but also a handful of games where he played what could be described as 'well' in another role. Immediately returned to normal role and mediocrity the following week
* 2016 - Constant adequacy. The median Mackay game was significantly better than usual, but also no 'highlights'. At times he threatened to almost impose himself on a game, but poor decisions and skills blunted this (particularly goalkicking)

I don't really have any major issues with his performance in the last 18 months as I think he's quietly done just enough to not really affect the team for better or worse. It would have been better if he'd continued sneaking a few goals like the start of this year though.

But over his career my main complaint has been that he's been a constant and other better players have come and gone. It's like he's the "non-statistical defensive forward" role that has been a millstone on certain players in recent years: they do what the coach tells them, achieve nothing because it's impossible to affect the game in that role, coach backs them in totally until a point where they are suddenly dropped and delisted... Except in MacKay's case the last bit never came.

Additionally, his best games are covering for other players or when he's demanded to play a more defensive role. But there's been zero attempt to convert him permanently into this sort of player. Conversely, there have been other players who could do MacKay's role just as adequately, but coaching staff have seen more in them and demanded a step up to another level or role that couldn't be achieved and ultimately led to trade/delisting.

 

[Jcpdragonx]

He's improved a bit this year but he is generally scared of a contest and that means AFL is not for you. He is also the worst tackler ever.

I play a non contact sport for this reason.

 

[CrowBloke]

The fact the the Crows have had four coaches some with great football minds and all with much greater experience than anyone on this board, who have all played Mackay indicates that perhaps it is the Bigfooty group think that is wrong.

I tend to align with that comment.
Here's evidence that explains Mackay's re-selection --- from the AFC own website:
"" "The Crows have recalled the experienced David Mackay to help counter the pace of Dockers duo Bradley and Steven Hill.

"D-Mac comes back in through a bit of team balance," Camporeale said.

"We thought we were one runner down last week in terms of the flexibility he brings.

With the two Hill boys on the wing it's a different sort of make-up, so we'll always pick the team that we best think is going to win." "" (my emphasis)
I've certainly received more feedback in here than I expected and thank all who've commented, whether I agreed or not.
For the record I should probably say what i think of Mackay's re-selection.
Meh.
Well, it didn't upset or annoy or disappoint me or make me angry, like some of the people in here.
Mackay's not a match-winner and does not have explosive impact in a game like our best 8-10 players can and do. Unless you're an AFL fan with encyclopedic knowledge, think for a moment and name players from opposition teams. Chances are you'll be recalling their best, most effective players, the stars --- and Mackay is not a star. He's a soldier, one who does pretty much what's asked of him and not much more. All AFL teams have players like that, who get a game week after week and stay relatively anonymous.
I think Galluci was given a run to try him out against Brisbane, but I do not consider him to be better than Mackay at this stage. Maybe the selectors thought to try Galluci and dropped Mackay to fit him in, maybe even with the intention of recalling Mackay, unless Galluci starred.
I just don't know.
All Pyke and the selectors can do is pick a team that they think will win.

 

[TheKev]

His last play in a crows jumper sums him up to a tee.

 

[marty36]

Mackay's career before this year can fit into 4 stages of various length.

* 2008-9 - Early promise, starting to show a bit by the end of 2009
* 2010-12 - Most games poor to adequate. A few moments of brilliance or demonstration of talent showing why he's on the list
* 2013-15 - Most games poor to adequate. less moments showing what he's capable of but also a handful of games where he played what could be described as 'well' in another role. Immediately returned to normal role and mediocrity the following week
* 2016 - Constant adequacy. The median Mackay game was significantly better than usual, but also no 'highlights'. At times he threatened to almost impose himself on a game, but poor decisions and skills blunted this (particularly goalkicking)

I don't really have any major issues with his performance in the last 18 months as I think he's quietly done just enough to not really affect the team for better or worse. It would have been better if he'd continued sneaking a few goals like the start of this year though.

But over his career my main complaint has been that he's been a constant and other better players have come and gone. It's like he's the "non-statistical defensive forward" role that has been a millstone on certain players in recent years: they do what the coach tells them, achieve nothing because it's impossible to affect the game in that role, coach backs them in totally until a point where they are suddenly dropped and delisted... Except in MacKay's case the last bit never came.

Additionally, his best games are covering for other players or when he's demanded to play a more defensive role. But there's been zero attempt to convert him permanently into this sort of player. Conversely, there have been other players who could do MacKay's role just as adequately, but coaching staff have seen more in them and demanded a step up to another level or role that couldn't be achieved and ultimately led to trade/delisting.

What does that say about all our coaches including Pyke who pick him?


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[Infra Ted]

If the only thing required of a footballer was pace, run and carry abilities, Mackay would be up there with the best of them.

Not sure if serious.

 

[Jars458]

To say players don't develope in SANFL is just moronic. We might as well pack up our reserves because they make no difference.

The problem with always going for potential is that tomorrow never comes. Your always replacing a player with someone who is worse but has "more potential".

The fact the the Crows have had four coaches some with great football minds and all with much greater experience than anyone on this board, who have all played Mackay indicates that perhaps it is the Bigfooty group think that is wrong.

But nah, what do they know. We clearly know better with our vast experience of a amature footy and couch surfing.

Yeah we should just pay our money accept mediocrity and be content with no grand final for 20 years. Our club motto should be mediocrity forever.

 

[adelaidecrows]

Not sure if serious.

Has this site seriously gone that against Mackay that if someone says he shouldn't be in the team for this and the description isn't bad enough people come over the top and argue. Seriously people get a grip and stop being so stupid. Mackay is a fantastic run and carry player but has serious flaws in other areas of his game. He gets selected on his run and carry abilities. Thats a reality. Stop making crap up to define your own misguided beliefs. It's not like I said he should be in the team though either.