Have we just witnessed the quickest rebuild in AFL history?

[WWSD]

You're probably fortunate to have received injuries when you did ... some of those kids can play.

Yep. Daniel Howe is starting to come good as midfielder/tagger, and Sicily looks a better much defender than he did as forward.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Do you seriously believe that the Hawks would have traded Mitchell and Lewis out for nothing in return if they thought they could contend?

Who'd you bring in? Mitchell and O'Meara? Certainly when you consider Lewis looked cooked despite his runner-up in the B&F and Mitchell having only a year left in the game.

Go back to the off-season threads and most of your supporters were quite buoyant about the current season.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Yep. Daniel Howe is starting to come good as midfielder/tagger, and Sicily looks a better much defender than he did as forward.

I still think Burton is a natural forward. Reminds me of Dan Menzel pre injuries.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Planning on trading Lever for pick 40? Or just going to sign a guy who is 21 as a FA because Hawthorn?



Spot on.

The only teams that talk about rebuilding are those that make conscious list management decisions for the future knowing that it may impact results in the short term. It sells hope that you have a plan.

We keep hearing about the great Hawthorn rebuild of mid 2017 but Heatherley, Stewart, Hardwick, Howe, O'Brien weren't even playing when they were getting pumped early on. We also keep hearing about how many players they have out. Which is it? You can only field 22. We're getting mocked today for fielding the oldest team in the comp and we had as many <50 gamers as the Hawks did do start the season. We aren't 'rebuilding' (though we do need to). Geelong are 2nd and are fielding probably half a dozen players by necessity. They aren't rebuilding, they're just playing footy in a comp where you have 40 odd players on your list and players get injured.

Dangerfield also joined Geelong at 25, while Mitchell joined Hawthorn at 23 and O'Meara 22. Not worlds apart. Mitchell, O'Meara and Vickery were all recruited to have an immediate impact, despite history revisionism to suggest otherwise.

Can you please post your rulings of what constitutes the start of a rebuild?

So far, as far as I can tell from this thread we've got:
* Must not have older or experienced players playing well, or in the side.
* Must not have players over 25 years of age.
* Youngsters cannot be played in place of injured players(unless you're Geelong, then it's a rebuild on the run, which is completely different and must not be confused with what Hawthorn is doing.).
* New players must be well under 23yrs of age.

Apparently, from what I can gather in this thread a step-by-step rebuild over the course of 2-3 seasons never really starts, until it's finished.

 

[wagstaff]

Even with several experienced players out injured (and likes of Vickery in the reserves), in terms of age Hawthorn still had the equal 5th (with Essendon) oldest side over the weekend so the concept that they're a youth-driven side now is a bit of a misnomer.

 

[Off The Couch]

Even with several experienced players out injured (and likes of Vickery in the reserves), in terms of age Hawthorn still had the equal 5th (with Essendon) oldest side over the weekend so the concept that they're a youth-driven side now is a bit of a misnomer.

Where is it written that a rebuild must consist only of youth

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Where is it written that a rebuild must consist only of youth

Couchy, if you get a copy of the "rules for rebuilding", can you post them?

 

[blitzer]

Hawks idea of a rebuild was trading for Mitchell and O'Meara and believing the entire time they were still in flag contention.
It has not even started yet. Each year from now a few more premiership stars will retire or fall away in form for the next few years (particularly the forward line which have melted like butter this year). Next year without Hodge, Burgoyne and Gibson they will already lose a few extra games.

Don't believe it will impact? Look how much they've gone down since losing Sam Mitchell and Lewis (a guy they all said was cooked) and that was while bringing in experienced AFL players to replace them. Its only going to get worse.

They have one guy under 21 that's potentially elite and that's about it with no high draft picks this year. How do you think they are going to fare against the Melbourne's, St.Kilda's, Essendon's of the world that have been stockpiling young talent for a number of years and they are starting to reach maturity? Not well.

 

[rumply]

Dead cat bounce

Yep

 

[FoolCat]

30 players will be leaving over the next 3 years? Ouch.

But I guess you guys survived 34.

Gone over next 3:
Gibbo, Hodge, 1 or 2 Box Hill types
Burgers and 1 or 2 seniors, 1 or 2 Box Hill types
Vickery and 1 or 2 seniors, 1 or 2 Box Hill types (perhaps Vickery gets mentioned on this side)

So that is about 10 players or 25%.

Who are the other 20?

So you're not in a rebuild then?

 

[QuietB]

Who'd you bring in? Mitchell and O'Meara? Certainly when you consider Lewis looked cooked despite his runner-up in the B&F and Mitchell having only a year left in the game.

Go back to the off-season threads and most of your supporters were quite buoyant about the current season.

I think they were hopeful. But the reality is and was that the Hawks were a mile off the pace last year despite finishing 3rd.

You will soon discover that winning more than half your games by less than a kick is false form

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

I think they were hopeful. But the reality is and was that the Hawks were a mile off the pace last year despite finishing 3rd.

You will soon discover that winning more than half your games by less than a kick is false form

We've already found that out in 2014.

This year is entirely different.

 

[Scotland]

Can you please post your rulings of what constitutes the start of a rebuild?

So far, as far as I can tell from this thread we've got:
* Must not have older or experienced players playing well, or in the side.
* Must not have players over 25 years of age.
* Youngsters cannot be played in place of injured players(unless you're Geelong, then it's a rebuild on the run, which is completely different and must not be confused with what Hawthorn is doing.).
* New players must be well under 23yrs of age.

Apparently, from what I can gather in this thread a step-by-step rebuild over the course of 2-3 seasons never really starts, until it's finished.

There is no definition, because it's a buzzword. Clubs say 'we're rebuilding' or 'we're targeting 2020' because it sells hope and tempers expectations. If Hawthorn came out and said 'we're targeting a flag in 2017' then Clarkson would be getting the same heat as Nathan 'we need to make finals' Buckley. If Carlton or Brisbane said it people would just go 'OK...' and slowly walk backwards.

Every team has list turnover each year regardless of whether they win the flag or the spoon. The AFL rules force it. GWS were the premiership favourites going in and made 6 picks in the national draft and 2 in the rookie draft (one of which was Patfull who is retired) plus traded in Brett Deledio. Geelong won the flag in 2007 then had 7 or 8 players in the 2011 side that weren't there in 2007. Rebuilding?

Breust, Smith, Puopolo debuted 2011. Gunston, Hill 2012. Langford, Duryea 2013. Etc. The Hawks weren't 'rebuilding' any more then than they are now, it's just how footy works. If you wait until you are s**t to draft (you can't) and blood (you can) new players you'll be in a massive hole. Brad Hill didn't play in 3 flags because he was 21 or whatever, he played in 3 flags because he earned a spot like Lake who is a decade older.

Geelong and Hawthorn are having similar years injury wise but one is near the top and one is near the bottom, so people talk about one rebuilding and not the other. Most of time there is a much stronger correlation between use of the word 'rebuilding' and a team's performance than with the list management decisions of the club.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

There is no definition, because it's a buzzword. Clubs say 'we're rebuilding' or 'we're targeting 2020' because it sells hope and tempers expectations. If Hawthorn came out and said 'we're targeting a flag in 2017' then Clarkson would be getting the same heat as Nathan 'we need to make finals' Buckley. If Carlton or Brisbane said it people would just go 'OK...' and slowly walk backwards.

Every team has list turnover each year regardless of whether they win the flag or the spoon. The AFL rules force it. GWS were the premiership favourites going in and made 6 picks in the national draft and 2 in the rookie draft (one of which was Patfull who is retired) plus traded in Brett Deledio. Geelong won the flag in 2007 then had 7 or 8 players in the 2011 side that weren't there in 2007. Rebuilding?

Breust, Smith, Puopolo debuted 2011. Gunston, Hill 2012. Langford, Duryea 2013. Etc. The Hawks weren't 'rebuilding' any more then than they are now, it's just how footy works. If you wait until you are s**t to draft (you can't) and blood (you can) new players you'll be in a massive hole. Brad Hill didn't play in 3 flags because he was 21 or whatever, he played in 3 flags because he earned a spot like Lake who is a decade older.

Geelong and Hawthorn are having similar years injury wise but one is near the top and one is near the bottom, so people talk about one rebuilding and not the other. Most of time there is a much stronger correlation between use of the word 'rebuilding' and a team's performance than with the list management decisions of the club.

Geelong and Hawthorn have had similar years injury wise? I may have a very Hawthorn-centric viewpoint, but I think you're having a laugh.

(Ceglar)Has Stanley been out with an ACL all year?
(Stratton)Has Lonergan been out for half the year with a knee?
(Frawley)Has Taylor been out of the side since May?
(Birchall)Has Mackie been out for the majority of the year with a broken jaw and then a knee?
(Rioli)Has Menzel not played since May?
(O'Meara)Has Duncan played 4 home and away games this year?


The long term injuries to key players up the spine is not even remotely comparable, and Clarkson has been forced to fastrack a bunch of
kids to cover them.

 

[Scotland]

Geelong have used 36 players with 5 players to play all games, Hawthorn 35 with 7.

Games missed:

Henderson, Menzel 3
Smith 4
Cockatoo, Stanley 7
Selwood 11
McCarthy 13

But yes, Hawthorn are amazing at overcoming the odds etc. to be sitting in 13th.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Geelong have used 36 players with 5 players to play all games, Hawthorn 35 with 7.

Games missed:

Henderson, Menzel 3
Smith 4
Cockatoo, Stanley 7
Selwood 11
McCarthy 13

But yes, Hawthorn are amazing at overcoming the odds etc. to be sitting in 13th.

So you agree that the most experienced defenders in Geelong's side have played almost every game in comparison to Hawthorn's?

Or are you going to keep peddling a myth that they've had a similar injury run?

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Think its hilarious people posting on here think a rebuild is cut and dry. Anything to try and give them hope that the hawks will be down the bottom for many years. The hatred runs very deep in the community and i for one love it.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

W

Geelong have used 36 players with 5 players to play all games, Hawthorn 35 with 7.

Games missed:

Henderson, Menzel 3
Smith 4
Cockatoo, Stanley 7
Selwood 11
McCarthy 13

But yes, Hawthorn are amazing at overcoming the odds etc. to be sitting in 13th.

If your going to list mccarthy why dont we just name o rourke and lovell plus cousins to the best 22 who have missed games. How your even comparing those outs listed even remotely as crucial as having no first choice backline, a starting mid, 2 of the better small forwards in the game and before this season the number 1 ruckman is utterly mindblowing. Have a lie down and come back to this thread when your ready to speak intelligently.

 

[Scotland]

So you agree that the most experienced defenders in Geelong's side have played almost every game in comparison to Hawthorn's?

Or are you going to keep peddling a myth that they've had a similar injury run?

W

If your going to list mccarthy why dont we just name o rourke and lovell plus cousins to the best 22 who have missed games. How your even comparing those outs listed even remotely as crucial as having no first choice backline, a starting mid, 2 of the better small forwards in the game and before this season the number 1 ruckman is utterly mindblowing. Have a lie down and come back to this thread when your ready to speak intelligently.

Oh, you guys.

It's cute how you are so desperate for validation of your brave performances based on your outs, but are equally desperate for validation of your performances being led by the young players who are only in the side because of the outs... Do you want Stratton and Gibson and Frawley and Birchall back in or don't you? Gonna go full old school Ross Lyon and pick 14 defenders?

We've been missing our first and second choice ruckmen all year. And our Coleman medal winning FF just missed 5 games. Life goes on. I guess are rebuilding after all.

As far as Geelong goes I just listed guys who were regular fixtures last year and/or early this year. McCarthy played 19 last year including every final then the first 3 this year. He's best 22. O'Rourke plays the odd game here and there and is usually injured of playing VFL. Like O'Meara if you trade in someone broken you can't then complain that they are broken. The Daniel Wells principle. Geelong also lost the experience of Enright and Bartel in the off season. #rebuilding

 

[SSSSSS]

I still think Burton is a natural forward. Reminds me of Dan Menzel pre injuries.

Burton is a natural footballer. Could play anywhere and succeed IMO bar the ruck.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Oh, you guys.

It's cute how you are so desperate for validation of your brave performances based on your outs, but are equally desperate for validation of your performances being led by the young players who are only in the side because of the outs... Do you want Stratton and Gibson and Frawley and Birchall back in or don't you? Gonna go full old school Ross Lyon and pick 14 defenders?

Mate, just stop talking crap.

You claimed Geelong have had the same injury run, and they clearly haven't.

Geelong have had the majority of their most dependable defenders in the side almost all year, whereas Hawthorn have not.

 

[Duskfire]

Mate, just stop talking crap.

You claimed Geelong have had the same injury run, and they clearly haven't.

Geelong have had the majority of their most dependable defenders in the side almost all year, whereas Hawthorn have not.

Geelong have been missing the majority of their small forward line though. Scott in the GWS presser was saying how all they had to choose from was basically talls. So sure Hawks haven't had their defense but I am not sure why one aspect of the ground dictates anything over the other?

Geelong also have had the most debutantes out of anyone this season. At least they had as of a couple of weeks ago.

I don't know, I guess people can think Hawks have bigger injury concerns. Just when I think injury plagued sides is teams like GWS and Eagles. Bulldogs are pretty bad as well especially in the first half of the year

 

[Scotland]

Mate, just stop talking crap.

You claimed Geelong have had the same injury run, and they clearly haven't.

Geelong have had the majority of their most dependable defenders in the side almost all year, whereas Hawthorn have not.

So only defenders count? Cool.

Frawley and Stratton have played 8 each, Birchall 5. Dry your tears.

How did you go again when Birchall, Stratton, Frawley, Gibson were all in?

 

[Scotland]

Geelong have been missing the majority of their small forward line though. Scott in the GWS presser was saying how all they had to choose from was basically talls. So sure Hawks haven't had their defense but I am not sure why one aspect of the ground dictates anything over the other?

Geelong also have had the most debutantes out of anyone this season. At least they had as of a couple of weeks ago.

I don't know, I guess people can think Hawks have bigger injury concerns. Just when I think injury plagued sides is teams like GWS and Eagles. Bulldogs are pretty bad as well especially in the first half of the year

Nah, only Hawthorn count. Other teams don't get injuries.

I don't consider we've had an injury crisis at all. Missing Naitanui and Lycett is a double kick in the nuts but we are too reliant on having Naitanui in the middle anyway and need to work on that. Kennedy missing 5 in a row hurts too but you can't expect all of your best players to be available all the time, it's just footy. Darling and LeCras have been 50+ goal kickers, Hill and Jetta 40+. McGovern is more than capable of kicking a bag. See Melbourne with Hogan out, Tom McDonald has done a great job. You try and find a way.

 

[Ambrosia]

.
The funny thing is there are a few bomber supporters being quite gleeful and upbeat at the demise of the Hawks in this thread yet they are looking at the retirements of Watson, Goddard, Bellchambers, Stanton, baugley, zaharakis, Hurley over the same time frame of 2020 and they've achieved jack s**t - I wouldn't be going to early with the back slapping

Zaharakis and Hurley are going to retire as soon as they hit 30?

Applying the same logic to Hawthorn's list all of Rioli, Stratton, Smith, Vickery, Bruest, Schoenmakers, Frawley, Birchall, Puopolo, Roughhead, Burgoyne, Hodge, Whitecross and Gibson will all be cooked by 2020 as well.