IC17 2017 AFL International Cup

[jarrod_island_doggies]

i figured if Croatia was going to be in this thing the point would be to see how they fare against countries like Fiji, Nauru, Canada, and United States. we already seen them against Germany, and i assume they will destroy the Asian countries. of course i'm judging by their 2013 performance. unless Germany and the Asian countries have improved a lot since 2013 or Croatia has declined, i just see it as a waste that Croatia won't be playing some of the second tier non-European countries. basically the final of the 2nd division will most likely be Germany vs Croatia... which was the 5th place European Championship spot in 2013. it just seems redundant and not very international.

From past performances, Japan are no pushovers mate, I'd say they'd take it right up to either Germany (in the groups) or Croatia (in the semi finals). Do agree that the other nations in the pool should be a bit weaker than Croatia - particularly Indonesia if based on 2014. But who knows? Three years is a long time.

 

[RedV3x]

Quite a few of the Kiwi boys playing in Australia now, i counted 9 not sure whether good or bad ?

They added a new rule limiting the number of Australian-based players as the practice was becoming so popular.
NZ, PNG, Ireland, Pakistan mainly but also Canada and France etc.

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

New Zealand IC17 Squad


http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20170725004851848

Quite a few of the Kiwi boys playing in Australia now, i counted 9 not sure whether good or bad ?

I also note they have both St Kilda boys rookies in the team - Miller and Baker but no Heatherley from Hawthorn

I'd say that's more to do with Hawthorn not wanting a close-to starting 22 player risking injury. A bit of a shame for the Kiwis, because with someone like Kurt at HB, they'd really go in favourites.

 

[RedV3x]

From past performances, Japan are no pushovers mate, I'd say they'd take it right up to either Germany (in the groups) or Croatia (in the semi finals). Do agree that the other nations in the pool should be a bit weaker than Croatia - particularly Indonesia if based on 2014. But who knows? Three years is a long time.

Japan is another country that plays really good football but lacks the talls to capitalize. Their previous scores are not a true reflection.
Pakistan might be a dark horse - they have been playing football for 10 years and have a national championship.
I presume they'll have still have a good number of Shaheens in their Dragoons.

 

[RedV3x]

I'd say that's more to do with Hawthorn not wanting a close-to starting 22 player risking injury. A bit of a shame for the Kiwis, because with someone like Kurt at HB, they'd really go in favourites.

I'm not sure about that. In general countries want to reward players from their current local competition rather than just go for a win.
There are many previous examples of this. I don't know if Croatia will be playing their SANFL player.
He is a product of Croatian football.

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

I'm not sure about that. In general countries want to reward players from their current local competition rather than just go for a win.
There are many previous examples of this. I don't know if Croatia will be playing their SANFL player.
He is a product of Croatian football.

Then why give Miller a spot and not Heatherly? Or perhaps moreso since Baker-Thomas played at IC 2014, surely he's had his "go" and as an Australian-based player, could make way in-kind for Kurt? (I do realise they play different positions, but are both big-bodied utility types).

Just read that back and it sounds a bit narky. Apologies in advance, just playing devil's advocate really.

 

[*Crash*]

Then why give Miller a spot and not Heatherly? Or perhaps moreso since Baker-Thomas played at IC 2014, surely he's had his "go" and as an Australian-based player, could make way in-kind for Kurt? (I do realise they play different positions, but are both big-bodied utility types).

Barclay Miller and Joe Baker-Thomas are NOT rookies, they are not even international rookies. They cannot even play for St Kilda (unless an Essendon style drama decimated their available list and the AFL made an exception). They are international scholarship list players. Kurt Heatherley is on Hawthorn's senior list. Big difference. Of course NZ would love to have Kurt, but he is not available

 

[*Crash*]

New Zealand IC17 Squad


http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20170725004851848

Quite a few of the Kiwi boys playing in Australia now, i counted 9 not sure whether good or bad ?

I also note they have both St Kilda boys rookies in the team - Miller and Baker but no Heatherley from Hawthorn

As above.

 

[TWLS]

They added a new rule limiting the number of Australian-based players as the practice was becoming so popular.
NZ, PNG, Ireland, Pakistan mainly but also Canada and France etc.

Regarding the Pakistan Mens team -How many are coming from there, because we could not see the point of them all from Melbourne.
How long has the new rule been in play.
Their match against India should be interesting. On their Facebook page they say - "India will be there."

 

[RedV3x]

Regarding the Pakistan Mens team -How many are coming from there,

Unclear a.t.m.

How long has the new rule been in play.

For this IC17.

 

[TWLS]

New Zealand IC17 Squad


http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20170725004851848

Quite a few of the Kiwi boys playing in Australia now, i counted 9 not sure whether good or bad ?

I also note they have both St Kilda boys rookies in the team - Miller and Baker but no Heatherley from Hawthorn

The New Zealand team should improve this time around relative to the other Countries-- because--
They have now had 2 x 18 a side AFLNZ Premiership Seasons in Auckland under their belt, which involved the best 80 or so talented players available in the 4 team comp.
Some of the Australian based players went back and played as well each time.

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

Barclay Miller and Joe Baker-Thomas are NOT rookies, they are not even international rookies. They cannot even play for St Kilda (unless an Essendon style drama decimated their available list and the AFL made an exception). They are international scholarship list players. Kurt Heatherley is on Hawthorn's senior list. Big difference. Of course NZ would love to have Kurt, but he is not available

Fair enough...

They do however get paid up to $20,000 a year to develop their skills playing for club affiliates and training at AFL clubs. Hardly a huge jump from a Baker-Thomas to a Heatherley pre- his elevation to the senior list. But anyway, it's wishful thinking at best.

 

[BigBrainUSA]

i think any country that is highly competitive and haven't competed for the final or 3rd place could possibly be called a "2nd tier" team, but it's just terminology. my point is that Croatia and Germany won't be facing real international competition... they are facing themselves and some Asian countries. as i see it that is probably the biggest disappointment of the tournament, probably worse than Tonga and Samoa not playing again.

That's the trade-off for getting rid of 200-point thrashings in the first round, which I feel is more important. You can make an argument that they probably deserve a D1 spot over France, but to be honest, France has improved over the last two ICs and deserves to be in there with the big boys. Will they win the group? Absolutely. China is much improved though, and so is Indonesia. And Japan is the best ranked returner from IC14 in this group, and they're an improving side too.

Case in point, if they want to move up and play those teams in IC2020, they'll need to prove that they can handle these teams first.

 

[hopandsolo]

Being over in Europe and having seen Croatia and their club teams play I think they still have to prove themselves at 18 a side. They are comfortable playing 9s on soccer pitches, it's tactically much easier to play. In Europe they can win the Euro Cup 9s but haven't been near the top European teams at 18 a side in the two Euro Champs they played, so based on that Division 2 is fair. I've seen Japan play and their skills are tidy.

For NZ I don't think Heatherly is eligible as he is on an AFL list. Ireland would walk this if they were allowed play AFL listed players if the clubs released them. But then you would have full time professionals competing against people with day jobs which may not be fair.

 

[RedV3x]

Being over in Europe and having seen Croatia and their club teams play I think they still have to prove themselves at 18 a side. They are comfortable playing 9s on soccer pitches, it's tactically much easier to play. In Europe they can win the Euro Cup 9s but haven't been near the top European teams at 18 a side in the two Euro Champs they played, so based on that Division 2 is fair. I've seen Japan play and their skills are tidy.

I agree.

Ireland would walk this if they were allowed play AFL listed players if the clubs released them. But then you would have full time professionals competing against people with day jobs which may not be fair.

I'm not sure about the exact rules, but somewhere along the line there's something about the ineligibility of professional players or AFL players or not being affiliated with the home league etc. Plus the idea of the International Cup is to find the winning O/S football country not an AFL world team.

 

[Abram Jones]

Japan is another country that plays really good football but lacks the talls to capitalize. Their previous scores are not a true reflection.
Pakistan might be a dark horse - they have been playing football for 10 years and have a national championship.
I presume they'll have still have a good number of Shaheens in their Dragoons.

height seems to a common problem with Japan in sports (and perhaps other Asian countries). i think it comes down to national diet. Japan has a long life expectancy, so it's not like they are eating unhealthy. but the foods they eat must not be ideal for height. i don't really know a lot about it though. but it is really disappointing because they are losing in a lot of sports, when technically, they should be winning. for a lot of other Asian countries it can be explained by poverty.

 

[RedV3x]

i think it comes down to .

Genetics, all things being equal..

(a person from) Japan has a long life expectancy,

Smaller animals are more efficient and generally live longer, all things being equal..

 

[Abram Jones]

Genetics, all things being equal..



Smaller animals are more efficient and generally live longer, all things being equal..

i'm pretty certain it isn't genetics. the younger generation in Japan is getting taller because of introduction of different foods. also, Asians from impoverished countries are reaching the similar heights as us whites after a generation or 2. this is why i think lack of height in Asia is a dietary issue. i haven't heard anything else proposed. it is the same thing with Mexicans here in the states. Mexicans have a stereo type of being short. but wealthier people in Mexico are not actually any shorter than anyone else. and impoverished Mexican families who move here reach our height after a generation or 2.

certainly very specific groups of people have different genetic potential as far as height goes, but from my understanding this potential isn't an attribute of broad racial groups, but specific people from specific regions.

 

[jatz14]

i'm pretty certain it isn't genetics. the younger generation in Japan is getting taller because of introduction of different foods. also, Asians from impoverished countries are reaching the similar heights as us whites after a generation or 2. this is why i think lack of height in Asia is a dietary issue. i haven't heard anything else proposed. it is the same thing with Mexicans here in the states. Mexicans have a stereo type of being short. but wealthier people in Mexico are not actually any shorter than anyone else. and impoverished Mexican families who move here reach our height after a generation or 2.

certainly very specific groups of people have different genetic potential as far as height goes, but from my understanding this potential isn't an attribute of broad racial groups, but specific people from specific regions.

Its a bit of a myth that it's genetics or environment, most characteristics are a combination of both. Environmental influences shape genetic heritage. There is evidence that this is cross generational, that environment alters the expression of your genes, and that this altered expression is passed on.

So Japanese can be smaller due to genetic factors, and also change in height over time due to environmental factors.

Other factors may also be at play.

Australians have undergone the same process, reaching a peak in height just prior to WW1, and then shrinking as a consequence of war, not reaching pre war heights again until the 70s.

Japanese suffered huge losses during WW2, likely to have affected height, and they were not tall prior to then



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[bowla81]

I'm not sure about that. In general countries want to reward players from their current local competition rather than just go for a win.
There are many previous examples of this. I don't know if Croatia will be playing their SANFL player.
He is a product of Croatian football.

Habljak will be playing as well as Cvetko who has joined Norwood on trials.

 

[bowla81]

Being over in Europe and having seen Croatia and their club teams play I think they still have to prove themselves at 18 a side. They are comfortable playing 9s on soccer pitches, it's tactically much easier to play. In Europe they can win the Euro Cup 9s but haven't been near the top European teams at 18 a side in the two Euro Champs they played, so based on that Division 2 is fair. I've seen Japan play and their skills are tidy.

For NZ I don't think Heatherly is eligible as he is on an AFL list. Ireland would walk this if they were allowed play AFL listed players if the clubs released them. But then you would have full time professionals competing against people with day jobs which may not be fair.

You are right, Croatia are a very good team a 9s but have very little experience at 18s.

 

[bowla81]

I'm actually really disappointed have been allocated to Div 2., as I wanted to see them against the better sides (Nauru, PNG, NZ, USA). This is the first time they will attend and I'm not that positive that they will be able to attend again in 2 years.

 

[RedV3x]

i'm pretty certain it isn't genetics.

Not really a football discussion subject is it.

 

[RedV3x]

Its a bit of a myth that it's genetics or environment, most characteristics are a combination of both.

Yes.

 

[RedV3x]

I'm actually really disappointed have been allocated to Div 2., as I wanted to see them against the better sides (Nauru, PNG, NZ, USA). This is the first time they will attend and I'm not that positive that they will be able to attend again in 2 years.

Yes, it is a little sad that we wont see those clashes but this draw avoids the mis-matches of the past.
Unfortunately there are many teams that cannot afford to return every 3 years.
It would be very interesting to see how Denmark stands these days etc.