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red+black said:
BOG from the umpires seems like a shocking decision. Not 1 vote, not 2 votes, but actual BOG. 16 kicks, 2 handballs, 3 marks, 0 goals, 0 frees for.
Click to expand...

If that was shocking, what about Bruce Doull ?
Carlton v St Kilda in 1985 - umpires gave him 3 votes as BOG, and all he had was 7 kicks, 1 mark, 2 h-passes, 1 free for
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1985/031519850406.html

More than anything proves that basic reading of stats off the page does not always reflect quality of a player's game.
 
Catsace said:
Maybe Hardie was the daytime's Robert Klomp!

Of the oldest living premiership players, Russ Renfrey would have to be up there now wouldn't he? Are there any still alive who played in a Flag in the 40's?
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He was named in 3rd spot on the list of Oldest Living Premiership Players in the 2017 AFL "Year Book":-
Harold Lambert 16/5/1922 Essendon 1946,1949,1950
Lou Richards 15/3/1923 Collingwood 1953
Russell Renfrey 11/8/1923 Geelong 1951, 1952
Jack Jones 7/11/1924 Essendon 1946, 1949, 1950
 
35Daicos said:
He was named in 3rd spot on the list of Oldest Living Premiership Players in the 2017 AFL "Year Book":-
Harold Lambert 16/5/1922 Essendon 1946,1949,1950
Lou Richards 15/3/1923 Collingwood 1953
Russell Renfrey 11/8/1923 Geelong 1951, 1952
Jack Jones 7/11/1924 Essendon 1946, 1949, 1950
Click to expand...
So with Lou Richards' sad passing, is Noel McMahen now the oldest living premiership captain?

On LG-K500 using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

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red+black said:
Re Brad Hardie. He won the Brownlow Medal in his first year of VFL Football, polling 22 votes in 25 games.

He only polled a further 22 votes for the remainder of his 150 game career.
...
How does Brad Hardie poll 3 votes in this game?
Click to expand...

Was a dasher in an Andrew McLeod kind of way, so didn't need huge numbers to catch the eye. It's possible that after the Brownlow he was required to be more accountable by his coaches.
 
red+black said:
Re Brad Hardie. He won the Brownlow Medal in his first year of VFL Football, polling 22 votes in 25 games.

He only polled a further 22 votes for the remainder of his 150 game career.

22 votes in 25 games = 0.88 votes per game in 1986
31 votes in 47 games = 0.66 votes per game at Footscray
22 votes in 125 games = 0.18 votes per game after leaving Footscray
13 votes in 101 games = 0.13 votes per game at Brisbane
0 votes in 2 games = 0.00 votes per game at Collingwood

I'm sure many would be happier if 332-gamer Justin Madden, who lost by 1 vote, had won instead.

How does Brad Hardie poll 3 votes in this game?
Click to expand...
Actually only 22 games as the 3 of the games were finals.. His first year at Footscray were also the only finals he played.
so he achieved

22 votes in his first 22 games
9 votes in his second 22 games.

I am confused by your list of games after leaving Footscray. Where else did he play apart from the 101 at Brisbane Bears and 2 games at Collingwood.

I calculate that as 13 votes after leaving Footscray and they came form his stint at the Bears.
 
worbod said:
We now know Sydney will play finals after being 0-6. This is a new record for being the latest point into a season where a team had no victories but still played finals.
What was the latest point into a season where a team had 1 victory but still played finals? (My guess is Fitzroy in 1984)
What was the latest point into a season where a team had 2 victories but still played finals?
How about 3 victories? (Richmond in 2014?)
4 victories? (Brisbane in 1995?)
5 victories and 6 victories?
Click to expand...

2 victories is definitely Fitzroy 1916 - 2 wins after the final Round no less! (Round 12).

3 victories would have to be Richmond 2014 - 3 wins after 14 Rounds.

4 victories also Richmond 2014? 4 wins after 15 Rounds? And so it goes up from there?
 
the croucher said:
If that was shocking, what about Bruce Doull ?
Carlton v St Kilda in 1985 - umpires gave him 3 votes as BOG, and all he had was 7 kicks, 1 mark, 2 h-passes, 1 free for
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1985/031519850406.html

More than anything proves that basic reading of stats off the page does not always reflect quality of a player's game.
Click to expand...

How many possessions/ goals did his opponent get? I bet it wouldn't be many.

How many Inside 50s for the Saints and total score for the Saints? I bet the score was low - we got the Spoon, but maybe we were pumping it in there all day for no reward because our forwards were hopeless.

Was he playing on Trevor Barker and totally pantsed him?
 
Now that leads to an interesting question. Stats-wise, which are the least-deserving recipients of Brownlow votes? We know that Champion Data stat only go so far back, but even just looking at disposals and goals, there mus be some real doozies. Then you get forwards that kick a bag and don't seem to get rewarded by the umpire.
 

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red+black said:
Now that leads to an interesting question. Stats-wise, which are the least-deserving recipients of Brownlow votes? We know that Champion Data stat only go so far back, but even just looking at disposals and goals, there mus be some real doozies. Then you get forwards that kick a bag and don't seem to get rewarded by the umpire.
Click to expand...

These players got votes for 7 or fewer disposals. David Allday's 3 is quite a good one.

V|Player|Club|Year|Rd|Ki|Ha|Disp|Ma|HO|Ta|FF|FA|G|B
\2|Dorotich, Jon|Ca|1992|6|2|1|3|0|0|0|0|1|0|0
\2|Liberatore, Tony|WB|1997|2|2|1|3|1|0|3|0|1|2|0
\1|Crowley, Ryan|Fr|2013|2|2|2|4|1|0|2|0|0|0|0
\3|Bourke, Damian|Ge|1986|20|3|1|4|2|21|0|2|1|0|0
\2|Febey, Steven|Me|1988|13|4|0|4|1|0|0|0|0|0|0
\1|Carter, Rod|Sy|1987|15|5|0|5|1|0|0|0|0|0|0
\1|Collins, Darren|WB|1989|11|6|0|6|0|0|0|0|1|5|0
\2|Hart, Ben|Ad|1998|12|6|0|6|4|0|0|2|2|1|0
\1|Clarke, Matthew|Ad|2004|7|4|2|6|1|31|0|1|1|0|1
\2|Madden, Simon|Es|1988|7|5|1|6|5|8|2|0|0|1|0
\1|McDonald, Beau|Br|2002|1|5|1|6|2|30|1|0|0|1|1
\1|Parsons, Michael|Sy|1989|22|3|3|6|2|22|1|0|2|0|0
\1|Prestigiacomo, Simon|Co|2009|17|2|4|6|4|0|3|0|0|0|0
\1|Jarman, Darren|Ad|1998|20|3|3|6|2|0|3|0|1|0|0
\1|Lynch, Alastair|Fi|1991|24|6|0|6|2|0|2|2|3|0|0
\1|Richards, Guy|Co|2006|2|1|5|6|3|13|4|1|3|0|0
\2|Hall, Barry|Sy|2009|8|6|0|6|5|0|5|0|0|5|0
\1|Biglands, Rhett|Ad|2001|19|4|2|6|3|29|4|0|4|0|0
\1|Daniher, Anthony|Es|1990|11|5|1|6|1|0|2|2|3|0|0
\2|Law, John|NM|1987|2|4|2|6|1|0|0|1|1|1|0
\1|Croad, Trent|Ha|1999|11|5|1|6|4|0|0|0|6|0|1
\1|Fletcher, Dustin|Es|1993|9|2|4|6|2|0|0|2|0|0|0
\1|Daniher, Anthony|Es|1990|2|5|1|6|1|0|3|1|0|0|0
\1|Prestigiacomo, Simon|Co|2000|22|3|3|6|2|0|0|0|1|0|0
\2|Carter, Rod|Sy|1986|13|5|2|7|2|0|0|2|1|0|0
\1|Wakelin, Darryl|St|1999|22|4|3|7|3|1|1|0|0|0|0
\2|Nicks, Matthew|Sy|2001|19|6|1|7|2|0|2|0|1|3|1
\3|Irving, Dean|WC|1991|12|4|3|7|4|20|0|0|1|0|0
\3|Allday, David|Me|1986|14|3|4|7|1|0|0|2|1|1|0
\1|Morwood, Shane|Co|1987|14|4|3|7|3|0|1|0|0|0|0
\1|Doull, Bruce|Ca|1986|4|5|2|7|2|0|0|0|0|0|0
\2|Hasleby, Paul|Fr|2006|8|4|3|7|4|1|2|0|3|1|1
\2|Matera, Phillip|WC|2000|21|7|0|7|1|0|2|2|1|5|0
\1|Hooper, Rhan|Br|2008|20|4|3|7|2|0|3|0|1|3|0
\1|Lockett, Tony|St|1985|17|7|0|7|5|0|0|2|0|6|0
\3|Phillips, Greg|Co|1986|2|4|3|7|5|0|0|0|0|0|0
\2|Pert, Gary|Fi|1989|6|6|1|7|3|2|3|1|0|0|0
\1|Bingham, Lawrence|St|1993|1|4|3|7|4|3|1|1|0|0|0
\2|Turner, Scott|Ri|1995|18|5|2|7|2|0|1|1|1|0|0
\1|Baker, Steven|St|2005|20|5|2|7|3|0|3|2|1|0|1
\2|Teague, David|NM|2002|9|4|3|7|4|0|1|1|1|1|0
\1|Biglands, Rhett|Ad|2006|14|5|2|7|1|22|0|1|4|1|1
\2|Bourke, Damian|Ge|1992|12|6|1|7|4|22|1|1|0|0|0
\2|Barnes, John|Es|1987|6|5|2|7|6|0|4|0|1|4|0
\1|Leppitsch, Justin|Br|1996|6|7|0|7|2|0|2|1|0|2|2
\1|Kellett, Mark|WB|1984|10|5|2|7|0|0|0|2|0|0|0
Some are obviously defenders who did an important stopping job, e.g. Scott Turner keeping Dunstall goalless in 1995. Others are ruckmen who were in the play with hit-outs, and a few kicked multiple goals. But there are some mysteries in there.
 
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Ron The Bear said:
These players got votes for 7 or fewer disposals. David Allday's 3 is quite a good one.
<snip>
V|Player|Club|Year|Rd|Ki|Ha|Disp|Ma|HO|Ta|FF|FA|G|B
\3|Allday, David|Me|1986|14|3|4|7|1|0|0|2|1|1|0
<snip>
Some are obviously defenders who did an important stopping job, e.g. Scott Turner keeping Dunstall goalless in 1995. Others are ruckmen who were in the play with hit-outs, and a few kicked multiple goals. But there are some mysteries in there.
Click to expand...

Well, yes Allday's stats as published online do not appear to show a performance likely to result in BOG votes. And votes given by The Age for that paper's award do not list him: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8wAyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1pIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6673,6737251

However, Martin Flanagan's match report [visible just to left of this - https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8wAyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1pIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4832,6738723] does comment "In Rendell's absence, Allday was unchallenged in the ruck..."

The stats have Allday listed with 0 hitouts and Alan Jarrott with 17. I think those figures are meant to be the other way around ! One could then see why the umpires considered Allday for Brownlow votes.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1986/061119860628.html
 
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the croucher said:
Well, yes Allday's stats as published online do not appear to show a performance likely to result in BOG votes. And votes given by The Age for that paper's award do not list him: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8wAyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1pIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6673,6737251

However, Martin Flanagan's match report [visible just to left of this - https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8wAyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1pIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4832,6738723] does comment "In Rendell's absence, Allday was unchallenged in the ruck..."

The stats have Allday listed with 0 hitouts and Alan Jarrott with 17. I think those figures are meant to be the other way around ! One could then see why the umpires considered Allday for Brownlow votes.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1986/061119860628.html
Click to expand...

One for *Paul* to check, maybe.
 
Ron The Bear said:
These players got votes for 7 or fewer disposals. David Allday's 3 is quite a good one.


1|Prestigiacomo, Simon|Co|2000|22|3|3|6|2|0|0|0|1|0|0

Some are obviously defenders who did an important stopping job, e.g. Scott Turner keeping Dunstall goalless in 1995. Others are ruckmen who were in the play with hit-outs, and a few kicked multiple goals. But there are some mysteries in there.
Click to expand...

Presti six disposals. Big day out.
 
the croucher said:
Well, yes Allday's stats as published online do not appear to show a performance likely to result in BOG votes. And votes given by The Age for that paper's award do not list him: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8wAyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1pIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6673,6737251

However, Martin Flanagan's match report [visible just to left of this - https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8wAyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1pIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4832,6738723] does comment "In Rendell's absence, Allday was unchallenged in the ruck..."

The stats have Allday listed with 0 hitouts and Alan Jarrott with 17. I think those figures are meant to be the other way around ! One could then see why the umpires considered Allday for Brownlow votes.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1986/061119860628.html
Click to expand...
Ron The Bear said:
One for *Paul* to check, maybe.
Click to expand...
The Footy Works program has the exact same stats for Allday and Jarrott as AFL Tables has. They presumably came from the same source, so there was obviously a problem with the hitout figure.

The Canberra Times names Allday fourth best for Melbourne, and the match report says "Melbourne's David Allday was far too good for Paul Tilley in the ruck
and rover Greg Healy, Brownlow Medallist Brian Wilson and Alan Jarrott shone all day."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/118128659
 
Brad Hardie also had another interesting game. In the State of Origin game Vic vs WA 1986, Hardie played back pocket. That was in the days when the rovers changed and in the forward pocket and tried to pinch a goal or 2. The Vic rovers were Weightman and Royal - both kicked 5 goals for Victoria. Weightman was awarded the Vic Best-on-ground.

Hardie won the Simpson Medal for best West Australian. There was a lot of comment around, 'Yes, he gets a lot of the ball, but so does his opponent. Like, 10 goals worth'.

WA won, so there's that.
 
Does anyone on here happen know or be able to provide a link to the history of how many minor premiers have actually won the premiership in the same year in VFL/AFL history?
 
red+black said:
Now that leads to an interesting question. Stats-wise, which are the least-deserving recipients of Brownlow votes? We know that Champion Data stat only go so far back, but even just looking at disposals and goals, there mus be some real doozies. Then you get forwards that kick a bag and don't seem to get rewarded by the umpire.
Click to expand...

With this is mind, it'd be interesting to have a run-down on Barney's 1977 season.....He absolutely murdered it & yet, only finished equal 4th, a full 25 votes behind Graeme Teasdale....LOL

Note also, that this was in the season where both umpires awarded 3-2-1 individually.....Hence the inflated total vote count of 59 for Teasdale, with Barney on 34, alongside Doull & Thompson. (Bartlett was 2nd with 45 & Picken 3rd with 41).

Here's his stats from his 1977 H & A Season: Remembering that he principally played as a rover that year, for which I can vouch for, first-hand.

Round 1 vs Nth. Melb: 18 Disposals....3 Goals
Round 2 vs Richmond: 25 disposals....5 Goals
Round 3 vs Geelong: 31 Disposals
Round 4 vs Carlton: 31 Disposals....2 Goals
Round 5 vs Fitzroy: 27 Disposals....6 Goals
Round 6 vs St.Kilda: 24 Disposals....4 Goals 5 Behinds
Round 7 vs Footscray: 24 Disposals....1 Goal
Round 8 vs Sth.Melb: 28 Disposals...5 goals
Round 9 vs Coll'wood: 23 Disposals..4 Goals
Round 10 vs Melbourne: 41 Disposals...3 Goals
Round 11 vs Essendon: 37 Disposals....5 Goals
Round 12 vs Nth. Melb: 21 Disposals....2 Goals
Round 13....Injured
Round 14 vs Carlton: 24 Disposals....1 Goal
Round 15 vs Geelong: 38 Disposlas....7 goals 5 Behinds
Round 16 vs Fitzroy: 25 Disposals ....6 Goals
Round 17 vs St,Kilda: 30 Disposals....4 Goals
Round 18 vs Footscray: 37 Disposals...7 Goals
Round 19 vs Sth. Melb: 25 Disposals....2 Goals 6 Behinds
Round 20 vs Coll'wood: 20 Disposals....2 Goals
Round 21 vs Melbourne: 33 Disposals....7 Goals 4 Behinds
Round 22 vs Essendon: 30 Disposals....6 Goals 3 Behinds

The games I've highlighted are clearly vote-worthy performances for a first rover....The one's I've both bolded & underlined, I think, are stand-out clearly B.O.G performances by any standard.

Now, just with the underscored games, that would amount to a maximum of 60 votes @ 10 games x3 votes x 2 umps.

Clearly that's a best case scenario.....But even forgetting the other 5 games, which were also clear vote worthy games....Then how in the hell did Barney only end up with a paltry 34 votes?

If someone can explain this to me, I'd be greatly appreciative.....If this isn't the single greatest example of a Brownlow medal swindle & heist in the history of VFL/AFL footy, then I don't know what is!....Who knows what game the umps were watching THAT year.
 
The 70s were a strange era for Brownlows - well, every era has it's foibles, I guess. But in the 70's we had 5 ruckmen win the Brownlow - Thomson, Gary Dempsey, Moss, Teasdale and Moore. Gary Dempsey polled in the Top 10 every year in the 70s. Some years had 3 ruckmen in the Top 10. Since then,
Barry Round in 81, Peter Moore in 84, Stynes in 91 and Wynd in 92. Then none. In the last 10 years, there have been a total of 2 ruckmen finish anywhere in the top 10 - Sandilands and Goldstein - once each and neither really got close.

I think a few things have happened to diminish the effect of ruckmen. Most importantly, the meddling with the rules re blocking, jumping etc has negated the ability for ruckmen to get that clean tap straight to a rover running at full speed (Sandilands did it a few times). You jump up in excitement when you see one of those beautiful taps to a running rover - John Nicholls used to do those and he was 6'2. But he weighed half a ton and knew how to use his body (and elbows, and the back of his hand etc:p:p:p).

Clearances are now far more complicated with taggers etc. The best you can hope for is that your ruckman can put the ball in a particular area.

The possession means fewer contested mark situations - so fewer opportunities to crash the pack. It was very common for ruckmen to play a kick behind the play (usually around CHB) to get to those marking contests. Now, with spread and the chip-kicking game, it's easy to bypass the opposing ruckman.

I also think the speed of the game has highlighted how you can't have a lumbering elephant plodding around the field. Interesting, one of the points in favour of introducing interchange was that you could hide your second ruckman on the bench and only bring him when the number one needed a rest - and he could get a real rest, rather than having to play out of the forward pocket, so that the top ruckmen would be even better (like most things regarding interchange, it has spectacularly backfired).

Ah, well - footy, like life, changes. If Bartlett, Matthews and Gary Wilson (the 3 best midfield possession gatherers in the 70s - Bartlett and Matthews also more than handy goalkickers) had played in the 2000s, they would probably have 5 or 6 Brownlows between them.
 
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Wallaby said:
Ah, well - footy, like life, changes. If Bartlett, Matthews and Gary Wilson (the 3 best midfield possession gatherers in the 70s - Bartlett and Matthews also more than handy goalkickers) had played in the 2000s, they would probably have 5 or 6 Brownlows between them.
Click to expand...

I can always clearly recall the names of Kevin Bartlett, Wayne Richardson, Garry Wilson, Ian Nankervis & Peter Featherby on top of the kicks & disposal tables in the 70's.....Barney, not so much....He was probably more a goal-kicking rover/forward & seldom ventured past the defensive side of the center square....The 77 season was his most prolific in terms of goals & possessions....He was at the peak of his powers that season

Though you're absolutely right....The umps clearly favored the big fellas who played in the middle in that era, without a shadow of a doubt.
 
What are the biggest Week 1 or 2 Finals crowds since the Final 5?

EDIT: (answered my own question)
94,690: 5-Richmond v 8-Carlton (EF, 2013)
90,370: 5-Carlton v 8-Essendon (EF, 2011)
90,186: 5-Richmond v 8-Nth Melbourne (EF, 2015)
88,456: 4-Melbourne v 6-St Kilda (SF, 1998)
88,308: 3-Richmond v 4-Essendon (SF, 1995)
87,823: 3-Hawthorn v 7-WBulldogs (SF, 2016)
87,533: 2-Geelong v 3-Hawthorn (QF, 2016)
85,656: 4-West Coast v 6-Essendon (SF, 1996)
85,639: 1-Hawthorn v 4-Collingwood (QF, 2012)
84,284: 5-Collingwood v 5-WBulldogs (EF, 2006)
84,213: 1-St Kilda v 4-Collingwood (QF, 2009)
83,323: 4-Richmond v 5-Carlton (SF, 2001)
 
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