Ground Rental Rates for AFL Clubs/Stadiums

[NoobPie]

If one off sporting events didn't provide economic benefits to the local economy, then the AFL wouldn't have matches in Alice, Ballarat, Cairns, Canberra, Darwin and Tassie, mostly funded by public money. the exact amount of economic benefit is another topic for another day, as it is always a great instrument of debate and very very very very hard to calculate. How do you calculate the flow on effects of extra people being employed or the opportunity cost of this expenditure? It isn't an exact science and heavily based on assumptions and the like. But i have gone off topic

But I am personally always surprised by how many people travel to these events. And that is always a good thing.

Not an exact science, and yet it is a science...

When approaching a science in which you have no formal education and experience, what should one do?

 

[BobbyMorri]

Not an exact science, and yet it is a science...

When approaching a science in which you have no formal education and experience, what should one do?

I actually have a degree in economics(Never used it) but thanks for asking.

Put it this way: I am of a personal opinion that you can make an economic report say what you what to say. It depends on the variables you use for your analysis. (Economic bias in other words)

But, as someone who has worked closely at a major sporting event, I personally have seen a lot of visitors coming just for that. I am not saying that Hobart should bid for the Olympics, but if the infrastructure is already built(or will be used afterwards) then major events can only be a good thing. Events can stimulate spending/consumption

 

[NoobPie]

I actually have a degree in economics(Never used it) but thanks for asking.

Yes, a degree in economics is not sufficient to be able to think through a cost benefit analysis

Put it this way: I am of a personal opinion that you can make an economic report say what you what to say. It depends on the variables you use for your analysis. (Economic bias in other words)

Within reason, this is true of economics as tool of advocacy. You just choose the top end of a plausible range of assumptions and you get your result. This is notorious in tourism / sports events cost benefit analysis. That's my point.

A credible economic CBA uses various approaches to deal with uncertainty and lack of data (ie sensitivity testing, scenario intervals, probabilistic techniques).

But, as someone who has worked closely at a major sporting event, I personally have seen a lot of visitors coming just for that.

That's good for you. A more critical thinker would rely on actual evidence than their anecdotal experience un-adjusted for cognitive biases

I am not saying that Hobart should bid for the Olympics, but if the infrastructure is already built(or will be used afterwards) then major events can only be a good thing. Events can be a stimulate for spending and consumption.

They are a good thing if the benefits overall (including intangibles) exceed the costs (including the opportunity costs of handing millions of taxpayer dollars to private promoters and sporting organisations).

 

[jatz14]

NRL, ARU and A-league clubs will demand the same assistance then, if the AFL clubs want to rely on "Government Support" for Stadium Infrastructure. AFL has no more right than say a Melbourne Victory FC to demand Government Assistance for stadium infrastructure.

If the AFL has no more right to assistance for grounds than Victory do, then surely Victory have no more right than Vic Vikings hockey club, or basketball clubs, or La Crosse, or American football. There is now a Quidditch competition, perhaps governments should build Quidditch pitches too? After all if Victory deserve them?

Governments do not have an obligation to provide all sports with equal facilities, or any facilities in fact. It is politics, they provide the most facilities where there is the most demand, it is pretty basic. Small sport, small demand, small support. Two A league clubs in Victoria, averaging much smaller crowds than AFL = much smaller support.

Government is also more likely to provide support where that support is actually support, and not the whole shebang. AFL gets more support, but it also contributes much more. Eagles and Freo in Perth are both moving into brand new facilities built with government assistance. Those facilities however include significant community infrastructure, infrastructure that could not be supported without a long term key tenant. The clubs get help with the facility, the local government get a massive local sport and leisure facility, underpinned by a large reliable fee paying tenant.

Soccer fans usual response is to say, why doesn't the government give us stuff like that, totally missing that it wasn't given, local government was offered a deal to good to walk away from.

 

[Catoggio76]

Soccer fans usual response is to say, why doesn't the government give us stuff like that, totally missing that it wasn't given, local government was offered a deal to good to walk away from.

Last time I checked, Junior soccer clubs are turning kids away due to the amount that want to play, whilst I see plenty of signs on roadsides begging kids to play at Junior Aussie Rules clubs....

Point being that everyone has an equal right to apply for Govt Funding.

The AFL should be ashamed it gets million billion dollar Tv deals then goes to Govt for funding for LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/mental health day etc etc.

Do you serious think the AFL actually cares about LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/Mental Health Day etc etc. if Government Funding was not available?

 

[jatz14]

Last time I checked, Junior soccer clubs are turning kids away due to the amount that want to play, whilst I see plenty of signs on roadsides begging kids to play at Junior Aussie Rules clubs....

Point being that everyone has an equal right to apply for Govt Funding.

The AFL should be ashamed it gets million billion dollar Tv deals then goes to Govt for funding for LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/mental health day etc etc.

Do you serious think the AFL actually cares about LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/Mental Health Day etc etc. if Government Funding was not available?

Junior sport is a different issue. It is also an issue faced by quite a few sports. Footy is also having issues with access, particularly with the growth of girls footy, and this is especially true in Sydney.

My local area is creaking at the seams for both footy and soccer, and it is not going to be the AFL or the FFA fixing it.

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[The_Wookie]

Last time I checked, Junior soccer clubs are turning kids away due to the amount that want to play, whilst I see plenty of signs on roadsides begging kids to play at Junior Aussie Rules clubs....

Point being that everyone has an equal right to apply for Govt Funding.

But not everyone has the right to be funded.

The AFL should be ashamed it gets million billion dollar Tv deals then goes to Govt for funding for LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/mental health day etc etc.

You should be ashamed for making stuff up.

Do you serious think the AFL actually cares about LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/Mental Health Day etc etc. if Government Funding was not available?

The AFL is getting money for these rounds from the Government. If it gets money its for attached programs.

You seem to think its a one way street. Its not. In the south and west of the country using AFL or Cricket stars will reach more people than any other sport due to the overwhelming popularity of those sports. Its the greatest bang for the governments buck.

 

[jatz14]

Last time I checked, Junior soccer clubs are turning kids away due to the amount that want to play, whilst I see plenty of signs on roadsides begging kids to play at Junior Aussie Rules clubs....

Point being that everyone has an equal right to apply for Govt Funding.

The AFL should be ashamed it gets million billion dollar Tv deals then goes to Govt for funding for LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/mental health day etc etc.

Do you serious think the AFL actually cares about LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/Mental Health Day etc etc. if Government Funding was not available?

I would also point out, the new Freo facility in Cockburn has a whole bunch of premium junior soccer pitches associated with it. One of the reasons it went ahead is it targeted a whole range of local amenities issues, including junior soccer.

What's the chance Sydney FC float the idea of a brand new facility with local government, and include provision for junior footy?

Also, how much money does the AFL get for LGBTI inclusiveness? Does it even cover what they spend? If you think the extra 0.1% boost or so in AFL income is the reason they do it, your kidding yourself.



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[Catoggio76]

1. You should be ashamed for making stuff up.

2. Its the greatest bang for the governments buck.

3. Additional Info from Vinny C below

1. You don't understand the Modus Operandi of the AFL

2. The Government funds projects on "BCR" Benefit Cost Ratio, they do calculations to work out "bang for buck". it's called BCR. If not BCR, then funds are Politically motivated/financed.

3. I am also informed that Victorian State MPs lodged the financial wishlist for funded projects, with State Treasury, on October 15 this year. Given that Vic State election is next year, watch this space.

 

[The_Wookie]

1. You don't understand the Modus Operandi of the AFL

Im not sure you do either.

2. The Government funds projects on "BCR" Benefit Cost Ratio, they do calculations to work out "bang for buck". it's called BCR. If not BCR, then funds are Politically motivated/financed.

No way.

3. I am also informed that Victorian State MPs lodged the financial wishlist for funded projects, with State Treasury, on October 15 this year. Given that Vic State election is next year, watch this space.

If this thread is anything to go by, you arent really informed of anything.

 

[Catoggio76]

If this thread is anything to go by, you arent really informed of anything.

You're an idiot. A State Director advised me of the October 15 date, you dill.

 

[The_Wookie]

You're an idiot. A State Director advised me of the October 15 date, you dill.

sure he did.

 

[Catoggio76]

sure he did.

Well i was in a room of about 20 when it was said, so I am sure my workmates could vouch for it. Obviously, I work in Government, but will not disclose where.

 

[Our Game]

The AFL should be ashamed it gets million billion dollar Tv deals then goes to Govt for funding for LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/mental health day etc etc.

The AFL is a business and if in business you can screw money out of governments/politicians then so be it.

Think of all the BILLIONS the mining/renewable energy industries get every year in handouts from governments as against the amount the AFL has received over the years is a piddling amount.

Soccer in this country just dosent have the clout the AFL does so gets less money from governments - simple really!

 

[Rob]

Last time I checked, Junior soccer clubs are turning kids away due to the amount that want to play, whilst I see plenty of signs on roadsides begging kids to play at Junior Aussie Rules clubs....

Point being that everyone has an equal right to apply for Govt Funding.

What on earth has playing numbers got to do with stadium demand? 50,000 people do a fun run and that means the government should fork out for a huge * off athletics stadium?

 

[telsor]

The AFL should be ashamed it gets million billion dollar Tv deals then goes to Govt for funding for LGTBI League/Stadiums/Indigenious Rounds/mental health day etc etc.

The AFL is a business and if in business you can screw money out of governments/politicians then so be it.

Think of all the BILLIONS the mining/renewable energy industries get every year in handouts from governments as against the amount the AFL has received over the years is a piddling amount.

Soccer in this country just dosent have the clout the AFL does so gets less money from governments - simple really!

Indirectly, you also covered the difference between those games when to comes to 'bang for buck'....How much money do businesses give to AFL clubs Vs what they give to soccer?

and yes, being associated with all those things apparently contributes to that....All organisations government or business, want to be associated with such 'feelgood' causes.

 

[Catoggio76]

The AFL is a business and if in business you can screw money out of governments/politicians then so be it.

Ethics. it's called Ethics.

 

[Catoggio76]

I'll have a crack

Based on your revealed knowledge and understanding of government expenditure review processes I want to say.......the mail room?

Government department mail rooms are a funny place at the moment... especially when staff are putting their LGTBI votes through the mail room.... should Govt/taxpayer be paying for Govt staff to mail their LGTBI vote via Govt mailing systems.... mmmmmm

 

[NoobPie]

Ethics. it's called Ethics.

If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say you were a soccer person with a particularly jaundiced view of the AFL...?

All professional sporting leagues actively seek to attract public funds for infrastructure in particular. Others, such as the FFA, have successfully pulled 10s of millions from government to meet shortfalls in operating expenditure or for a corrupt world cup bid. Frank Lowy allegedly pulled strings to have the government funnel millions through SBS when no commercial network was interested in the A League rights.

The idea that the AFL is somehow "morally corrupt" (in some way that the other sporting bodies aren't) is just a warped idea in the minds of followers of other sports (particularly soccer, lets be honest) which is essentially a cognitive dissonance to avoid facing up to the reality that the AFL is winning and its winning real hard. This reality is just too much for these people to accept - particularly as they still harbbour deluded fantasies of future grandeur - so they instead develop ever more complex delusions including the AFL's successes are the result of profound corruption

 

[BobbyMorri]

All professional sporting leagues actively seek to attract public funds for infrastructure in particular. Such as the FFA who have successfully pulled 10s of millions from government to meet shortfalls in operating expenditure or for a corrupt world cup bid.

The idea that the AFL is somehow "morally corrupt" (in some way that the other sporting bodies aren't) is just a warped idea

Edited the nonsense to make a much "nicer" and direct point which i actually agree with.

You really must be confused with people who like more than 1 sports. Dont know how they fit into this "war/battle" of yours.

 

[NoobPie]

Edited the nonsense to make a much "nicer" and direct point which i actually agree with.

You really must be confused with people who like more than 1 sports. Dont know how they fit into this "war/battle" of yours.

I like several sports but am a strong advocate for my most preferred sport.

Particularly on this, here, Australian football forum this advocacy can become an aggressive defense when people for whom Australian football is clearly not their preferred sport decide they need to assert bullshit. It is these types that are "confused"...seriously, why are they here if they are not very confused? On days my self loathing was strong enough for me to venture to read League Unlimited or Four Four Two, it is clear that the standard of discussion about other codes (particularly AF) was far far worse than here (which is probably largely due to higher standards of moderation to give credit where it's due). Again, what is it about Australian football that people like you and Catoggio here feel the need to actively engage with its supporters on its major online forum? Again, very confused...

BTW, self awareness is clearly not your strong suit, but I'd like to point out your second line is, itself, "not nice". That is every bit as "ad hominem" as the "not nice" bits of my post you "edited". Also, weren't you the guy earlier this year who was never going to respond to me again after I pegged you as a cultural cringer? Now you are repeatedly responding to me unsolicited. Very confused

 

[BringBackTorps]

Ethics. it's called Ethics.

I would like to understand/explore/test your ethical compass. I'm hopeful you are not a hypocrite -Vinnie was one of my most favourite players!
Do you agree with the following:-

a. FIFA is arguably one of the most corrupt sporting organisations in the world.

b. The Aust. taxpayer was swindled out of $42,000,000 in Aust.'s futile & failed WC Bid. It obtained one vote -& most commentators said it never had a realistic chance, due to the vastly superior political strength/connections of other bidding nations; & unfavourable Aust. TV time zones (cf. Europe/USA) reducing ratings/ broadcasting $ rights. Everyone is aware that Aust. is a soccer minnow.

c. The FFA, according to Mercedes & other experts, hired lobbyists for the WC bid from very dubious backgrounds (including one previously charged with drug dealing) -& paid them many $millions for their "expertise", & ability to give bribes.
IIRC, over $14,000,000 was paid to these "lobbyists"by the FFA -& it is not clear who was the eventual beneficiaries of this sum.

d. The FFA should refund the Aust. Govt. $42,000,000

e. The AFL, a Not For Profit org. controlled ultimately by AFL Club members, has contributed directly (including future contributions to 2037 to the MCC, for the MCG rebuild) $250,000,000+ to stadia development. (This $250,000,000 does NOT include the $237,000,000 approx. the AFL has paid for Docklands).

The AFL also annually contributes indirectly to stadia development eg most of the MCC members who pay the MCC many $millions pa (the MCC mainly funded the MCG development), every year, are overwhelmingly AFL supporters -who attend matches, & hope to obtain a Grand Final ticket.
The AFL further contributes indirectly with its huge match crowds -which, in essence, are the "business case"for the 100,000 MCG; & are the main cash flow for the MCC to pay of its MCG rebuild debts.

Soccer (& most A League Clubs are privately owned), RL, & RU authorities should also directly contribute many $millions pa for stadia development.

f. The MCG, Etihad, AO, new Perth Stadium have only been built to their current capacity & amenity, with varying degrees of Govt. support, due to the huge crowds AF has attracted- on a weekly basis for many decades in those respective cities.
The FFA should not expect any further Govt. financial support (from any State, or Federal) for soccer stadia until it also has a similar, decades long, proven crowd record.

g. AAMI was built by the Vic. Govt. for c.$300,000,000 with no financial contribution by soccer authorities. Is this fair on the Vic. taxpayer?

h. MV & MC soccer Clubs should not have more attractive rental arrangements, when playing at AAMI
or Etihad, than the onerous arrangements NMFC, Footscray, & St K FC have when playing at Etihad.
When the latter AF Clubs attract a crowd of less than c.21,000, these Clubs not only make a loss -but have to write out a cheque to the stadium operator.

i. MC soccer club is owned, ultimately, by multi billionaire Middle Eastern oil barons. Their wealth has partly been generated by their Govt's. denying their own people democratic freedoms; & exploiting "guest workers"(to the extent that many die, or are injured, due to extremely unsafe & nefarious work practices).

MC soccer Club should receive no Govt. funding, for any purpose whatsoever.

j. AS Sydney NRL, RU, & soccer Clubs have historically recorded, in their weekly competitions, average game crowds of c.12,000 -16,000 (which are also now declining), there is no need for any upgrade of ANZ (capacity 83,000) & Allianz (capacity 48,000) stadia.. The mooted expenditure of $1.6 billion (with nothing contributed from soccer, NRL, or ARU) is a scandalous waste of taxpayer funds.

k. SBS A League ratings have traditionally been very poor. The strongly pro soccer SBS paid media rights to the A League WELL ABOVE genuine Commercial rates for these miniscule ratings. This represents a defacto taxpayer subsidy of the A League, & is EXTREMELY improper.

l. It is integral to the culture of soccer that many players "collapse" to the ground, trying to deceive the referee; & feign injuries to deceive the referee.
Society should discourage this unsporting deception & cheating; & soccer authorities should take effective & severe action to eradicate it.

Community standards demand that a culture of blatant, consistant & prolonged cheating/disrespect of the rules must never be condoned or accepted. Every parent would & should disapprove of their child (& adult players) cheating in this fashion. Cheating & dishonesty is the antithesis of how we want our children to behave -it sets a bad pattern for life, & deserves opprobrium.

m. The Indonesian Bakries Conglomerate own Brisbane Roar. Re their corporate/political behaviour & treatment of employees in Indonesia (& treatment of their soccer staff/players here), do you regard their management practices as generally admirable?

 

[BobbyMorri]

d-f. The MCG, Etihad, AO, new Perth Stadium have only been built to their current capacity & amenity, with varying degrees of Govt. support, due to the huge crowds AF has attracted- on a weekly basis for many decades in those respective cities.
The FFA should not expect any further Govt. financial support (from any State, or Federal) for soccer stadia until it also has a similar, decades long, proven crowd record.

g. AAMI was built by the Vic. Govt. for c.$300,000,000 with no financial contribution by soccer authorities. Is this fair on the Vic. taxpayer?

Did you see the old Olympic Park in Melbourne? It was inadequate for 2-4 future teams that now play out of AAMI. AAMI is a wonderful stadium and a real credit to the city. It has more than paid for itself with 2 new teams playing out of there(Rebels and City), plus the Asian Cup, Monster Trucks, concerts and whatever else the Melbourne Park(or government, cause, you know, they built it and hence own it) want.

There is NO difference between the Vic Government spending 300Mil on AAMI or the SA/WA spending whatever they spent stadiums. All 3 were needed and all 3 are wonderful stadiums for the teams which now play out of there.

 

[telsor]

Did you see the old Olympic Park in Melbourne? It was inadequate for 2-4 future teams that now play out of AAMI. AAMI is a wonderful stadium and a real credit to the city. It has more than paid for itself with 2 new teams playing out of there(Rebels and City), plus the Asian Cup, Monster Trucks, concerts and whatever else the Melbourne Park(or government, cause, you know, they built it and hence own it) want.

There is NO difference between the Vic Government spending 300Mil on AAMI or the SA/WA spending whatever they spent stadiums. All 3 were needed and all 3 are wonderful stadiums for the teams which now play out of there.

Yeah, but there is a difference between the Vic government paying for part of a ground and all of it.

The AFL has paid a significant part of the stadia they use in Vic, so for a soccer fan, who got their stadium for free (or when they use Docklands/MCG, largely paid for by the AFL) to complain about the AFL getting a free ride from the government is a bit of a joke.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Yeah, but there is a difference between the Vic government paying for part of a ground and all of it.

The AFL has paid a significant part of the stadia they use in Vic, so for a soccer fan, who got their stadium for free (or when they use Docklands/MCG, largely paid for by the AFL) to complain about the AFL getting a free ride from the government is a bit of a joke.

How much did the vfl contribute for the original southern stand, the 56 olympic stand, the original ponsford stand, and the old members stand?