The Decline and Fall of Victorian footy crowds

[Our Game]

1970
Total VFL H&A crowds were 2874937 spread across 132 games, or an average of 21780

2017
Total AFL H&A crowds at MCG, Docklands & Geelong were 4075033, spread across 101 games, or an average of 40346.8

So actually average crowds have almost doubled, which is impressive when you consider that in 1970, they were all derbies, while now only around half are.

Oh and although I know you wont understand this. Here are my SOURCES.

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2017.html
https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/summary.html

I stand corrected for some reason its just seems like there are less people going now.

They are pretty impressive when you see the raw figures So the game has kept up the the massive population growth over that period esp the last 15 years..
Still if you cast your mind back to the 1980s there were some very ordinary VFL crowds Even the VFA would have some crowds of 10-12,000 that matched or beat some of the poorer VFL crowds.
Sometimes the VFA crowds would be understated by the clubs as well to avoid paying their proper % to VFA head office.
I know of at least 3 clubs that used to resell tickets this was possible because very few VFA grounds had turn styles or the ones that did have them didnt use them like Port Melb,Brunswick,Prahran,Williamstown,Preston,Oakleigh,Northcote and Coburg who were the pioneers of Sunday football. The VFA eventually woke up to this by the early 1980s and had inspectors checking at each game.

 

[BringBackTorps]

1970
Total VFL H&A crowds were 2874937 spread across 132 games, or an average of 21780

2017
Total AFL H&A crowds at MCG, Docklands & Geelong were 4075033, spread across 101 games, or an average of 40346.8

So actually average crowds have almost doubled, which is impressive when you consider that in 1970, they were all derbies, while now only around half are.

Oh and although I know you wont understand this. Here are my SOURCES.

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/2017.html
https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/summary.html

 

[NoobPie]

A better base year for measuring Melbourne's football crowds over time under an independent commission would be 1987 - i.e. (i think) the first year of an independent commission. That year the Melbourne crowds were 2600279 in aggregate at an average of 19699

Poor Gill wasn't even born until 1973 and he is being blamed for crowds not keeping up with population growth since 1970!

 

[BringBackTorps]

Melb.& Geelong's population (ie per capita ratio) has more than DOUBLED since 1970.
On your figure for TOTAL crowds (ie 2,874,937 VFL in 1970 vs. 4,075,033 in 2017), the increase is ONLY C. 41.5%.

And you have omitted the good 1970 crowds of the powerful VFA Total- c. 450,000. Thus, a total of c. 3,332,000 = 2017 crowds' increase of only c.22.5%!

Furthermore, in 1970, there were significant obstacles/hardships for most fans to attend:-
. most grounds had VERY poor facilities/terrible toilets/mainly standing room/little protection from rain/inferior sight lines for shorter fans
. grounds in Melb. in nth. sth, east & west ie not centrally located. Many had to get 2 forms of pub. transport. Now (exc. Geelong) conveniently near CBD stations Flinders St & Spencer St; also, many CBD tram/bus routes
. had a small capacity (so lockouts would prevent some from attending, & artificially minimised crowds -very rare now). Now, c.93% games at the huge & comfortable MCG/DS
. had inferior public transport options (cf. MCG/Docklands -ONE train or tram DIRECT to the stadium)
. most games Sat. afternoons only, a time impossible for some to attend. Now, with games Fri, S, or Sun, FAR easier for fans to find a suitable time -& fans can attend 2 games.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Still if you cast your mind back to the 1980s there were some very ordinary VFL crowds Even the VFA would have some crowds of 10-12,000 that matched or beat some of the poorer VFL crowds.
Sometimes the VFA crowds would be UNDERSTATED [?] by the clubs as well to avoid paying their proper % to VFA head office.I know of at least 3 clubs that used to resell tickets this was possible because very few VFA grounds had turn styles or the ones that did have them didnt use them like Port Melb,Brunswick,Prahran,Williamstown,Preston,Oakleigh,Northcote and Coburg who were the pioneers of Sunday football. The VFA eventually woke up to this by the early 1980s and had inspectors checking at each game.

Interesting.

Without naming names, was this deliberate understating of VFA crowds confirmed to you directly by the relevant VFA club officials? And approx. what % of the VFA crowd was being understated at these 3 clubs? And for how many years?

Care to name which Clubs were doing the understating?

 

[NoobPie]

Melb.& Geelong's population (ie per capita ratio) has more than DOUBLED since 1970.
On your figure for TOTAL crowds (ie 2,874,937 VFL in 1970 vs. 4,075,033 in 2017), the increase is ONLY C. 41.5%.

And you have omitted the good 1970 crowds of the powerful VFA Total- c. 450,000. Thus, a total of c. 3,332,000 = 2017 crowds' increase of only c.22.5%!

Furthermore, in 1970, there were significant obstacles/hardships for most fans to attend:-
. most grounds had poor facilities/mainly standing room/little protection from rain/inferior sight lines for shorter fans
. grounds in Melb. in nth. sth, east & west ie not centrally located. Now (exc. Geelong) conveniently near CBD stations Flinders St & Spencer St
. had a small capacity (so lockouts would prevent some from attending -very rare now)
. had inferior public transport options (cf. MCG/Docklands -ONE train or tram direct to the stadium)
. most games Sat. afternoons only, a time impossible for some to atten. Now, with games Fri, S, or Sun, FAR easier for fans to find a suitable time.

Sorry BBT, i like your enthusiasm and input around here but your not on a winner here at all

The AFL has the 4th biggest average crowds in the world and certainly higher than the vast majority on a per capita basis.

Using Sydney rugby league as a benchmark, in 1970 average NSWRL crowds were 11,015 at an aggregate of 1453948. This year Sydney NRL crowds were 1,246,438 in aggregate, down from 1,453,948 in 1970, and only a slight improvement in terms of average (13120)

As another benchmark, the English division 1 had 14.836 million in aggreagate in 69/70 at an average 32,113

http://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-1969-1970/1/

Last season the aggregate was actually lower 13.612M at a slightly higher average of 35,822

http://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-2016-2017/1/

 

[telsor]

Melb.& Geelong's population (ie per capita ratio) has more than DOUBLED since 1970.
On your figure for TOTAL crowds (ie 2,874,937 VFL in 1970 vs. 4,075,033 in 2017), the increase is ONLY C. 41.5%.

And you have omitted the good 1970 crowds of the powerful VFA Total- c. 450,000. Thus, a total of c. 3,332,000 = 2017 crowds' increase of only c.22.5%!

Furthermore, in 1970, there were significant obstacles/hardships for most fans to attend:-
. most grounds had poor facilities/mainly standing room/little protection from rain/inferior sight lines for shorter fans
. grounds in Melb. in nth. sth, east & west ie not centrally located. Now (exc. Geelong) conveniently near CBD stations Flinders St & Spencer St
. had a small capacity (so lockouts would prevent some from attending -very rare now)
. had inferior public transport options (cf. MCG/Docklands -ONE train or tram direct to the stadium)
. most games Sat. afternoons only, a time impossible for some to attend. Now, with games Fri, S, or Sun, FAR easier for fans to find a suitable time.

Wow, talk about being selective in your stats.

31 fewer games don't matter to you?

Also, if you include VFA crowds (unsourced of course), why don't you count the VFL crowds in calculating your 22.5%?


But still...You have NO SUGGESTIONS FOR FIXING the problems you claim to exist.

 

[NoobPie]

Wow, talk about being selective in your stats.

31 fewer games don't matter to you?

Also, if you include VFA crowds (unsourced of course), why don't you count the VFL crowds in calculating your 22.5%?


But still...You have NO SUGGESTIONS FOR FIXING the problems you claim to exist.

If anyone can solve the horrendous problem of Victoria's 10 AFL clubs averaging over 40K a match they deserve a nobel or something..

..likewise the profound resilience of the game's participation base in the face of the global growth of the "simple and safe" codes like soccer and basketball

What are we doing wrong?

 

[BringBackTorps]

The AFL has the 4th biggest average crowds in the world and certainly higher than the vast majority on a per capita basis.

The AFL's crowd nos. in Australia are excellent- &, by world standards (given our relatively small population/per capita comparisons), are SUPERB! I have never said otherwise.
I have suggested that crowds could & should be better.

I have said (& demonstrated) that there has been a significant PER CAPITA (not raw nos.) decline in 2017 Melb. & Geelong Total crowds cf. 1970 VFL & VFA Melb. & Geelong Total crowds (Given that the populations of Melb. & Geelong now are more than Double their populations of 1970).

I have said that general AF culture (in Vic., WA., SA., & Tas.) is not as strong now as it was in previous decades -mainly due to the massive boom in soccer & basketball regd. GR nos./computer games/internet etc. In the ACT, AF was the no.1 code until the 80's -but we have lost this status to RL (& intro. of NRL Raiders).

The AFL has done a very good job in the NT, which can now be considered an heartland AF territory. The AFL is also doing a good job in NSW & Qld., where GR AF is showing good growth & we have 4 AFL Clubs.
The AFL is doing a good job with female AF & the AFLW (albeit should have started much earlier).

I have never said " Gill should be blamed for crowds not keeping up with population growth since 1970".
The Commission, & its predecessors, as " custodians of the game", should & must be accountable for the GR health of the game (& the health, of course, of the AFL comp.).
The AFL's aim should be to have the highest no. of regd. players in Aust.

 

[BringBackTorps]

31 fewer games don't matter to you?

EXACTLY! LOL!

 

[telsor]

EXACTLY! LOL!

So you ignore the average crowds, because it suits your argument better to ignore the number of games and just focus on the total....

Well in that case, you much be thrilled that VFL/AFL crowds are infinitely better than they were in 1970 in WA, SA, NSW, QLD, Tas, ACT & NT.

 

[telsor]

The AFL's crowd nos. in Australia are excellent- &, by world standards (given our relatively small population/per capita comparisons), are SUPERB! I have never said otherwise.
I have suggested that crowds could & should be better.

I have said (& demonstrated) that there has been a significant PER CAPITA (not raw nos.) decline in 2017 Melb. & Geelong Total crowds cf. 1970 VFL & VFA Melb. & Geelong Total crowds (Given that the populations of Melb. & Geelong now are more than Double their populations of 1970).

I have said that general AF culture (in Vic., WA., SA., & Tas.) is not as strong now as it was in previous decades -mainly due to the massive boom in soccer & basketball regd. GR nos./computer games/internet etc. In the ACT, AF was the no.1 code until the 80's -but we have lost this status to RL (& intro. of NRL Raiders).

The AFL has done a very good job in the NT, which can now be considered a heartland AF territory. The AFL is also doing a good job in NSW & Qld., where GR AF is showing good growth & we have 4 AFL Clubs.
The AFL is doing a good job with female AF & the AFLW (albeit should have started much earlier).

I have never said " Gill should be blamed for crowds not keeping up with population growth since 1970".
The Commission, & its predecessors, as " custodians of the game", should & must be accountable for the GR health of the game (& the health, of course, of the AFL comp.).

Whinge whinge whinge...but still not a hint of an idea of how it could be done better...

 

[Our Game]

Interesting.

Without naming names, was this deliberate understating of VFA crowds confirmed to you directly by the relevant VFA club officials? And approx. what % of the VFA crowd was being understated at these 3 clubs? And for how many years?

Care to name which Clubs were doing the understating?

I was actually involved at one of the clubs for a while so saw it at first hand and other clubs officials either confirmed it to me or I watched at away games and usually would see it happening because I knew what to look for.
It went on for at least 10 years before the VFA woke up or someone dobbed the offending clubs in.
All the clubs I mentioned plus Dandenong were involved as far as I know. Of course none of the clubs would ever admit it.

From what I know 1-2000 would be taken off say a 10,000 crowd and was used to pay cash payments to players to save them paying tax.

 

[BringBackTorps]

I was actually involved at one of the clubs for a while so saw it at first hand and other clubs officials either confirmed it to me or I watched at away games and usually would see it happening because I knew what to look for.
It went on for at least 10 years before the VFA woke up or someone dobbed the offending clubs in.
All the clubs I mentioned plus Dandenong were involved as far as I know. Of course none of the clubs would ever admit it.

From what I know 1-2000 would be taken off say a 10,000 crowd and was used to pay cash payments to players to save them paying tax.

I knew about the VFA HQ Crowd Assessors -but also that the allegations of understating crowds was strictly denied, & never proven. It make sense that the Clubs would only attempt it with big crowds c.8-10,000. I assume this scam never happened at the much smaller Div. 2 games.

The VFA used to get Finals crowds from 20-32,000- I wonder if this scam happened then (non-competing Club officials on the gates)?

The VFA was always notorious for cash payments to players, & arranging jobs for players (or their partners) with wealthy sponsors that had curious "special arrangements". It was rumoured the cash economy was deemed necessary by many VFA clubs to retain/recruit players against the hot competition of the VFL/wealthy country Clubs.

 

[BringBackTorps]

So you ignore the average crowds, because it suits your argument better to ignore the number of games and just focus on the total....

Well in that case, you much be thrilled that VFL/AFL crowds are infinitely better than they were in 1970 in WA, SA, NSW, QLD, Tas, ACT & NT.

Assume 2 AFL games only in one year were played in Auckland -which attracted crowds of 50,000 & 60,000, thus average 55,000. No one would ever claim that, because this 55,000 average was better than the Melb. AFL average of 40,000, AF was stronger in Auckland than Melb. TOTAL crowds & no. of games played are most definitive.

Without wishing to derail this thread, Perth's population has nearly tripled since the 60's, Adelaide's population increased c.50% since the 60's.
Unfortunately, there has also been in Perth & Adelaide a per capita decline of AFL crowds in the recent past cf the WAFL & SANFL crowds at their peak. The TSL crowds are disastrously low, per capita AND raw nos.
NSW & Qld 2017 AFL crowds obviously surpass any local AF crowds previously, per capita and raw nos.

IMO, the interchange has been a cancer for the game -huge congestion/stoppage nos., blocking space for full forwards (so they cant kick 80+ goals pa), reducing overhead contested marking & long kicking, destroying excitement etc. This has made the game far less aesthetically pleasing, with so many big ugly packs, congestion, scrappy play, & "tackle ball". Once , fans used to salivate discussing the upcoming one-on-one contests- this pre-game excitement is finished now. All these factors obviously have a negative impact on attendances.
But I don't want to fully discuss these issues here.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Assume 2 AFL games only in one year were played in Auckland -which attracted crowds of 50,000 & 60,000, thus average 55,000. No one would ever claim that, because this 55,000 average was better than the Melb. AFL average of 40,000, AF was stronger in Auckland than Melb. TOTAL crowds & no. of games played are most definitive.

That's a completely disingenuous argument. There isn't the same diminishing returns for more games in Melbourne (and for that matter, Perth & Adelaide). It's not like playing 11 games in Alice Springs or Cairns and seeing the average drop, there quite clearly are supporters of the 10 Melbourne teams who would still go to the same % of their team's total Melbourne games if they played 22 or 12 in Melbourne.

Therefore your use of totals and not averages is just twisting things - as posted above you can't ignore the fact that almost 40 games less are being played in Melbourne than previously.

 

[Our Game]

The VFA used to get Finals crowds from 20-32,000- I wonder if this scam happened then (non-competing Club officials on the gates)?

When the finals were played at the Junction Oval the St Kilda Cricket club were ground managers so they controlled the gates but at Port 1963 -65 the VFA controlled the gates but I do know that the 1965 GF Port V Waverley at North Port it was thought a gate was left open on purpose and when the VFA officials arrived to open the gates and start selling tickets the Grandstand was already full of Port supporters After that the VFA/VFL didnt play a GF at Port for another 30 Years. They then went to Punt Road for 3 years and then back to the Junction for 18 years the last GF at the Junction Oval was 1987 Overall 38 VFA GFs were played at the Junction Oval the most of any ground.

 

[BringBackTorps]

That's a completely disingenuous argument. There isn't the same diminishing returns for more games in Melbourne (and for that matter, Perth & Adelaide). It's not like playing 11 games in Alice Springs or Cairns and seeing the average drop, there quite clearly are supporters of the 10 Melbourne teams who would still go to the same % of their team's total Melbourne games if they played 22 or 12 in Melbourne.

Therefore your use of totals and not averages is just twisting things - as posted above you can't ignore the fact that almost 40 games less are being played in Melbourne than previously.

I never requested this subject to be made a Thread, nor did I chose this Thread Heading, the Mods did. The Heading is FALSE & provocative as crowds have obviously RISEN in Melb. & Geelong in 2017 (on raw nos.)! Crowds in Melb. & Geelong are EXCELLENT!

Its not disingenuous, crowd totals & the no. of games played are the definitive stats. In Melb. & Geelong in 2017, fans (if their team was playing outside Vic.; or team no longer exists) still have plenty of opportunity to watch other games in Melb. if they wished. Obviously, SMFC & FFC fans can still also go to multiple Sydney & Brisbane games in Melb.

Also, its not just c.30 less AFL games in Melb. now. In 1970, the strong VFA (Div.1 -& Geelong West was a VFA side) had 10 teams, playing 18 Rounds: 90 extra VFA Div.1 H & A games pa were being played in Melb. Thus, 120 less games pain 2017 in Melb. & Geelong.

Why do you think SMFC & Fitzroy had to be removed from Melb. -thus diminishing the no. of AFL (VFL) games here? And why did the VFA fold?
If SMFC & Fitzroy played an additional 30 home AFL games in Melb./Geelong in 2017, & the VFA Div.1 was still playing in 2017 (without its Sunday game monopoly), what would the average crowds be?

Melb.& Geelong's' pop. has DOUBLED since 1970 -but 2017 total crowds in Melb. & Geelong have increased by only 22.5% to c.4,075,000 (cf. 1970 VFL & VFA Total of 3,332,000) - a per capita decline. These are the facts.

 

[AstroboyUK]

I see the op's point about how badly the AFL is run, only it isn't.

 

[Our Game]

Also, its not just c.30 less AFL games in Melb. now. In 1970, the strong VFA (Div.1 -& Geelong West was a VFA side) had 10 teams, playing 18 Rounds: 90 extra VFA H & A games were being played in Melb.

Why do you think SMFC & Fitzroy had to be removed from Melb. -thus diminishing the no. of AFL (VFL) games here? And why did the VFA fold?

Melb.& Geelong's' pop. has DOUBLED since 1970 -but 2017 total crowds in Melb. & Geelong have increased by only 22.5% to c.4,075,000, a per capita decline. These are the facts.
As I have posted Ive always thought that the crowd numbers are greater as they should be with a 50% increase in population form 1970 the % of the current population actually attending matches in Melbourne and Geelong has declined.

As you have stated the VFA also used to get pretty good crowds and now after AFL interference that has wrecked the comp and turned it into no more than a reserves comp would be lucky to get 5000 in total to all their matches which is a massive drop on what they were getting in the 1970 - 80s.

 

[The_Wookie]

I never requested this subject to be made a Thread, nor did I chose this Thread Heading, the Mods did. The Heading is FALSE & provocative as crowds have obviously RISEN in Melb. & Geelong in 2017 (on raw nos.)! Crowds in Melb. & Geelong are EXCELLENT!

I split it out as its got nothing to do with the financial results. And the rest of what you wrote is at odds with your posts on crowds not stacking up per capita. Dont jump on our bandwagon now.

 

[BringBackTorps]

I split it out as its got nothing to do with the financial results. And the rest of what you wrote is at odds with your posts on crowds not stacking up per capita. Dont jump on our bandwagon now.

Your Thread Heading is false. Some supporters of other codes, with ulterior motives, might attempt to use this Heading to besmirch AF in Vic.

 

[BringBackTorps]

The VFA used to get Finals crowds from 20-32,000- I wonder if this scam happened then (non-competing Club officials on the gates)?

When the finals were played at the Junction Oval the St Kilda Cricket club were ground managers so they controlled the gates but at Port 1963 -65 the VFA controlled the gates but I do know that the 1965 GF Port V Waverley at North Port it was thought a gate was left open on purpose and when the VFA officials arrived to open the gates and start selling tickets the Grandstand was already full of Port supporters After that the VFA/VFL didnt play a GF at Port for another 30 Years. They then went to Punt Road for 3 years and then back to the Junction for 18 years the last GF at the Junction Oval was 1987 Overall 38 VFA GFs were played at the Junction Oval the most of any ground.

I always assumed rumours of some VFA clubs deliberately understating crowds to the VFA HQ to be false -because it was never proven, & eventually someone always "spill the beans". And the VFA had the power to strip Div.1 Clubs of points, demote them to Div.2, strip them of good players.

It also seems very counter-productive to me. By releasing the correct, higher crowd figures, the Clubs (& Ch.10) would have more "prestige" for their big crowds -& thus attract for the Club (& Ch.10) more sponsors/advertisers, & sponsors willing to donate more funds to the Club.
Are you aware if these "crowd underquoting" VFA Clubs ever considered these perspectives?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I always assumed rumours of some VFA clubs deliberately understating crowds to the VFA HQ to be false -because it was never proven, & eventually someone always "spill the beans". And the VFA had the power to strip Div.1 Clubs of points, demote them to Div.2, strip them of good players.

It also seems very counter-productive to me. By releasing the correct, higher crowd figures, the Clubs (& Ch.10) would have more "prestige" for their big crowds -& thus attract for the Club (& Ch.10) more sponsors/advertisers, & sponsors willing to donate more funds to the Club.
Are you aware if these "crowd underquoting" VFA Clubs ever considered these perspectives?

The sponsorship culture was soft even in the vfl in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Hoops]

FFV claimed publicly in 2016 that it has more regd. soccer players in Vic. than AF. Do you dispute this?

I do 66,000 v 160,000 is not even close

http://www.footballfedvic.com.au/football-player-numbers-rise-20-in-two-years/