Politicians having affairs- does it change your vote?

[DaRick]

It would at most make a minor difference to my vote, but for a politician preaching 'Christian family values', committing adultery isn't a good look.

 

[Kurve]

It's definitely worth digging into, but as of today no-one on Twitter has clear answers that differ from the reports in the media, aside from unreliable speculation.

I think that's the point Ratts, this can't just slide. The pressure needs to stay on and we need to keep pushing imo so we get the right people digging into it.

 

[Maggie5]

The problem Maggie is that AAP says Di Hallam was appointed to Inland Rail in Aug 2017. The version of events shown in ShellyG's post appears to be #FakeNews (it is being pushed around Twitter, after all). Not only does it use evocative language likely designed to influence people rather than inform them (e.g. "criminal event", or more pertinently for us, "a hush appointment"), but it seems to have errors. News Corp says from behind a paywall:

Are we meant to believe that Twitter timeline which appears to have Campion on the same trip? Joyce's published claims about the trip are also almost half the $62K it claims. Unreliable.

The widely-used AAP timeline I posted a few pages ago says in Dec 2016 "Hallam later quits to take up departmental role". I highlighted the confusion:

Twitter's timeline changes that to her being given a "hush appointment" at that time, so it isn't even confident enough to say it was an official appointment then. There is little about Hallam online, but Credlin mentions being offered the vacated COS role "last year" and some Twitter types reckon part of the conspiracy is revealed by how 'sudden' the arrival of Di Hallam was at the inland rail project. It's definitely worth digging into, but as of today no-one on Twitter has clear answers that differ from the reports in the media, aside from unreliable speculation.

Sorry not sure it proves anything and the timeline is beside the point.
Whether it was August or December or whenever, the point remains that Hallam is described as 'highly regarded' Chief of Staff and is worthy of further reporting as to why she left.
Notice all the staff leaving from Cash's office and is being reported?

 

[Kurve]

Twitter types

Twitter is driving the news Ratts, users can access every journalist in Australia immediately. It will be the influence of and pressure from social media that will see a formal inquiry into this affair if Labor doesn't use it for a federal ICAC and we'll get the precise answers then. Are you registered there?

 

[Number37]

Are we meant to believe that Twitter timeline which appears to have Campion on the same trip? Joyce's published claims about the trip are also almost half the $62K it claims. Unreliable.

Joyce - 23/6 to 5/7
Cormann - 24/6 to 12/7

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I agree hard to notice at time, generally staff movements between offices aren't newsworthy, but if they knew that the affair was going on (seems to be accepted that media aware but felt it wasn't worth reporting) I would have thought a media operator would just keep tabs on Vicki movements and stumble onto it at time.

That said main media are reducing staff so less bodies to do that type of background work...

But even then, are those movements news? Campion worked for News Corp and then as a media adviser for the Nationals. That isn't suss. We expect such things. She moved offices after the affair became a problem. Hardly a problem there either - most would think 'that makes sense'.

(To be clear to the other people who may reply - we know the Joyce story is major news, we are discussing the allegations of media 'cover-up' which everyone is so keen to spread about every little thing in this age of Trussian-style politics)

The main reason for suspicion, and the one which probably did cause the story to eventually come out, was due to Nikki Savva's comment in Aug 2017:

Another high-profile senior member of the government could become embroiled in a scandal involving entitlements and extracurricular activity... All it takes is for the opposition or a smart journo to match up the travel claims of prime suspects, and voila. Say goodbye to career, to family, even to the government.

Savva is a Turnbull fan, so journos would've noticed, but they also would've known she wasn't going to release the info herself - in order to protect the PM.

But Savva's use of "entitlements" is followed up by "travel claims". It appears most people therefore thought that the 'smoking gun' would be in his travel claims. I still have heard reference to that after the story broke about staffing. The Jul-Sep travel claims came out in mid-Dec. And wouldn't you know it...

Mr Joyce replied that media outlets had "FOI-ed everything to do with my travel and they — and nothing is — has been turned up, because there's nothing there".

So journos were paying attention, but due to the time it took the process to play out, this info didn't turn up until after the by-election, and even then, the 'smoking gun' was a big jump up in his expenses, which appears to be due to Joyce visiting and staying in Canberra at taxpayer expense outside Parliament sitting periods. That's something he claims was justified by his duties, even though we suspect he is stretching the truth majorly. Is the a big story without the staffing aspect? Staffing is still the most highlighted problem. And the bump-up in travel claims isn't revealed until mid-December.

So onto the staffing aspect. There would not have been an obvious reason to think Campion wasn't being a useful employee for Canavan. I don't know when Savva first wrote her comment above (because it was part of her re-released book), but it was published in The Australian early August as an edited excerpt. That was after Canavan stepped down and at a time when Campion was temporarily back in Joyce's office. There's a good chance that the photo on the front page of TDT with Campion being alongside Joyce at an event on July 1 may have been part of the prompt for her comment. The PMO may have even been trying to get Campion's travel to go unclaimed so they didn't have the 'partners' working together problem. But that's pure speculation.

The move to Drum is where it gets suspicious because Drum then had 2 advisers, and he was the Whip and not in Cabinet. By itself that story is a bit weak. You basically have to just question her credibility while saying 'you know she's had an affair with Barnaby'. Of course the Nats would say she was needed by Drum (they are still saying that). And it could well have looked like a demotion to journos. 'She caused problems in Joyce's office and is therefore going to a junior National'.

The 'smoking gun' trigger for this to become a more substantial story came in Nov 2017. That's when Canavan returned to the frontbench and didn't replace the role Campion used to have. At this point you could say 'is she really needed by Drum, or is she getting paid for other reasons?'. Before that, you are accusing a woman of being kept around due to her relationship, despite her having a legitimate media pedigree. Sex lives generally aren't reported on, but they have reported it once the staffing info got out. We don't know if an FOI request revealed that, or if an Abbott-fan in the LNP revealed it.

I think that's the point Ratts, this can't just slide. The pressure needs to stay on and we need to keep pushing imo so we get the right people digging into it.

Sorry not sure it proves anything and the timeline is beside the point.
Whether it was August or December or whenever, the point remains that Hallam is described as 'highly regarded' Chief of Staff and is worthy of further reporting as to why she left.
Notice all the staff leaving from Cash's office and is being reported?

Twitter is driving the news Ratts, users can access every journalist in Australia immediately. It will be the influence of and pressure from social media that will see a formal inquiry into this affair if Labor doesn't use it for a federal ICAC and we'll get the precise answers then. Are you registered there?

No, that isn't the point, Maggie. People, including yourself, are alleging 'cover-up' in the midst of reporting of the story, when more will keep coming out. And the timeline is #fakenews that is being cited as proof of 'cover-up' as part of a lot of big allegations on Twitter (allegations, Shelly, that are often BS - if you aren't following the Russia story). Erroneous reporting designed to rile people up and make them distrust the media should be combated.

And, no, I have not noticed anything about Cash's office. I think you referred to her yesterday too? I haven't watched Insiders yet if they refer to her.

 

[Kurve]

No, that isn't the point, Maggie. People, including yourself, are alleging 'cover-up' in the midst of reporting of the story, when more will keep coming out. And the timeline is #fakenews that is being cited as proof of 'cover-up' as part of a lot of big allegations on Twitter (allegations, Shelly, that are often BS - if you aren't following the Russia story). Erroneous reporting designed to rile people up and make them distrust the media should be combated.

How the hell else are we supposed to get this kind of thing sorted out if allegations aren't made? Allegations is where it all starts. If it looks off, it probably is.

And no I'm not following the Russia story, I don't care atm I'm actually more interested in corruption, nepotism and cronyism in our own government.

Also, if you hadn't noticed many in the press are already admitting this was of public interest and it was a mistake to keep it quiet!

 

[Number37]

And, no, I have not noticed anything about Cash's office. I think you referred to her yesterday too? I haven't watched Insiders yet if they refer to her.

Michaeliar Cash is 28 days overdue on providing answers about her office's knowledge about the AWU raids.

 

[Maggie5]

B

No, that isn't the point, Maggie. People, including yourself, are alleging 'cover-up' in the midst of reporting of the story, when more will keep coming out. And the timeline is #fakenews that is being cited as proof of 'cover-up' as part of a lot of big allegations on Twitter (allegations, Shelly, that are often BS - if you aren't following the Russia story). Erroneous reporting designed to rile people up and make them distrust the media should be combated.

And, no, I have not noticed anything about Cash's office. I think you referred to her yesterday too? I haven't watched Insiders yet if they refer to her.

No not in the middle, I was first made aware of the Joyce affair by Dry Rot during the New England by-election.
Sure Hallam leaving news is only recent however, I still believe that non reporting is poor. Keep in mind that we are speaking of the Chief of Staff for the Deputy PM and not some back bencher or minor Minister. That I believe is newsworthy but because journalist may have then had to disclose the affair, they didn't report on it.
I missed Insiders this morning so not aware of what was discussed but the news about Cash's staff has been in the media and also on this site.

 

[pazza]

Shag who you like. Just don't employ them.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

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Joyce - 23/6 to 5/7
Cormann - 24/6 to 12/7

She was working for Canavan, right? Mathias Cormann is not Canavan.

How the hell else are we supposed to get this kind of thing sorted out if allegations aren't made? Allegations is where it all starts. If it looks off, it probably is.

And no I'm not following the Russia story, I don't care atm I'm actually more interested in corruption, nepotism and cronyism in our own government.

Also, if you hadn't noticed many in the press are already admitting this was of public interest and it was a mistake to keep it quiet!

Most stories begin with journalists, not with social media. Social media or non-mainstream media certainly has the power to do great things, but it's also is far less reliable than regular media. It is known to most people to be full of crap. You have to learn how to sift through the info to find reliable sources. This is what journalists already do in their day-to-day job. Most of the useful content on Twitter comes from journalists.

No not in the middle, I was first made aware of the Joyce affair by Dry Rot during the New England by-election.
Sure Hallam leaving news is only recent however, I still believe that non reporting is poor. Keep in mind that we are speaking of the Chief of Staff for the Deputy PM and not some back bencher or minor Minister. That I believe is newsworthy but because journalist may have then had to disclose the affair, they didn't report on it.
I missed Insiders this morning so not aware of what was discussed but the news about Cash's staff has been in the media and also on this site.

The affair is not the main story. We know they avoided directly reporting specifics on the affair.

 

[Number37]

She was working for Canavan, right? Mathias Cormann is not Canavan.

Most stories begin with journalists, not with social media. Social media or non-mainstream media certainly has the power to do great things, but it's also is far less reliable than regular media. It is known to most people to be full of crap. You have to learn how to sift through the info to find reliable sources. This is what journalists already do in their day-to-day job. Most of the useful content on Twitter comes from journalists.

1. Cormann went for longer and yet had lower travel claims.
2. Employee overseas costs- Barnaby's is almost double that of Cormann.

The suggestions are
1. That the extra cost relates specifically to Ms Campion.
2. That she (Campion) joined Barnaby after his wife returned home on the 30/6. She wasn't working for him at the time. Even if it was a legit business trip, why wasn't she there from the beginning?

 

[Kurve]

Most stories begin with journalists, not with social media.

Where do you think journalists get their material from if not the people?

I've given you only one example of my own contributions in having found something significant in the records that Canberra press should have been onto before I was. In the same vein, who do you think it was that found the transaction where Rupert Murdoch was paid personally by Joe Hockey, over $800 million in a tax refund?

I can assure you, it wasn't Canberra press.

 

[Maggie5]

The affair is not the main story. We know they avoided directly reporting specifics on the affair.

It seems we are in agreement about this. Not sure about anything else though.

 

[AM]

 

[AM]

That Miranda Bovine sure knows her stuff.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

1. Cormann went for longer and yet had lower travel claims.
2. Employee overseas costs- Barnaby's is almost double that of Cormann.

The suggestions are
1. That the extra cost relates specifically to Ms Campion.
2. That she (Campion) joined Barnaby after his wife returned home on the 30/6. She wasn't working for him at the time. Even if it was a legit business trip, why wasn't she there from the beginning?

Gotcha. Where did you read about those specifics? This is the information available via the IPEA:

• Cormann Q2 $613.22 & Q3 $61,334.93 = $61,948.15 for 26 days ($2,382.62/day)
  
• Joyce Q2 $2,004.76 & Q3 $37,397.12 (+employee costs under a slightly different title $25,564.09) = $64,965.97 for 20 days ($3,248.30/day)
  
• Joyce separates out the 'Employee Overseas Costs' part of that as $1374.76 and $25,564.09 (listed here and here). $26,938.85 worth.
  
• Which would've made Joyce's travel otherwise cost $1970.09/day, compared to Cormann's Employee-subtracted cost of $1841.51/day
• And whoever the staffer, once you take into account the different period, Joyce's employee travel cost over double ($16,115) more than Cormann's.

And there are also separate 'Family' costs over those dates, presumably for Natalie's "7 day trip", as mentioned by News Corp, and totaling only $2,624:

• 14 Jun 17 $637.28
• 15 Jun 17 $637.28
• 16 Jun 17 $637.28
• 23 Jun 17 $339.15
• 05 Jul 17 $372.05

So the cost to us taxpayers for Campion, if she was on the trip, was not $62K. To add to the confusion, though, Campion wasn't meant to be a member of his staff at that time. Canavan lists no travel. So Joyce seconded her? Did Joyce list it because she would later work with him for a short period within the Quarter. That doesn't seem right, but I can imagine Canavan wanting Joyce to list it if it was dodgy. Joyce also has huge costs for employee travel domestically, which is meant to be Campion, so the 'non-partner' defence appears to be all he is hanging his hat on.

She appeared to still be working for him often. Turnbull must've known that. And as Savva said, the entitlements and travel is what reveals their time together. She wrote her column a month after that trip. Also, Joyce went to the mid-Winter ball with his wife 15 days after the trip.

Where do you think journalists get their material from if not the people?

I've given you only one example of my own contributions in having found something significant in the records that Canberra press should have been onto before I was. In the same vein, who do you think it was that found the transaction where Rupert Murdoch was paid personally by Joe Hockey, over $800 million in a tax refund?

I can assure you, it wasn't Canberra press.

I've no idea what you're talking about. Journalists are people too and have been getting stories before social media existed. They used to, and continue to, source stories via people, information and via being a witness. The amount of stories driven by Twitter that are anything more than irritating 'outrage' stories, are faaaarrr less than the amount of stories generated by the media via solid journalism. And journalism's errors are faaaaaaarrrrrr less than social media's.

 

[Kurve]

Journalists are people too and have been getting stories before social media existed.

And hiding a lot too.

 

[tenderwarrior]

This is a good read (I think)

http://www.examiner.com.au/story/5233344/trust-the-foundation-of-love-and-politics/

 

[pugsville]

Turnbull and Barnaby make up, Turnbull now pushes the nothing to see here line after ripping it up just a couple of days ago,

Then Morrison sounds off. Is he co-oridnated playing the cards for Turnbull who can;'t directly bucket his coalition partner or playing the cards to just cause trouble to destabilise Turnbull?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

There would not have been an obvious reason to think Campion wasn't being a useful employee for Canavan.

What in god's name?

It was common knowledge she was Barnaby's partner. How could a "reason" be more obvious? How could anybody see that situation and not think "potential jobs for the boys (girls) situation here"?

As a journalist that's where you dig, talk to people and find out what she's doing there, when she got there, whose job she took... in Canberra the story would come together very quickly.

Your desperation to defend the media is extraordinary.

It’s more permanent than a "cover up" you keep referring to. All this grubby affair shows is the unacceptable relationship between the media and politicians in Canberra.

You basically have to just question her credibility while saying 'you know she's had an affair with Barnaby'. Of course the Nats would say she was needed by Drum (they are still saying that). And it could well have looked like a demotion to journos. 'She caused problems in Joyce's office and is therefore going to a junior National'.

The 'smoking gun' trigger for this to become a more substantial story came in Nov 2017. That's when Canavan returned to the frontbench and didn't replace the role Campion used to have. At this point you could say 'is she really needed by Drum, or is she getting paid for other reasons?'. Before that, you are accusing a woman of being kept around due to her relationship, despite her having a legitimate media pedigree. Sex lives generally aren't reported on, but they have reported it once the staffing info got out. We don't know if an FOI request revealed that, or if an Abbott-fan in the LNP revealed it.

Of course you're accusing her of being kept around due to her relationship... that's what happened! And any number of sources would have confirmed it at the time.

That's your job as a journalist. You constantly have to question people's credibility, motives and judgement. It's not the easiest of jobs (when it's being done properly, that is).

It gets back to what I was saying about there being a permanently unacceptable culture among the Canberra press. You dismiss it with "sex lives generally aren't reported on". That's simply unacceptable no matter what some unspoken "rule" is. A story about a relationship between an elected politician and a staffer is absolutely in the public interest and should be reported. If politicians have created some agreement with the press where it's not, then the journalists are derelict in their duties. The proof is in the pudding - a relationship with staff causes a situation that is ripe for corruption. Private businesses know this and thus it's usually dealt with.

Cultures such as this aren't uncommon btw. It's clearly the case with political reporters in Canberra. Many would say the AFL have a similar MO. Cultures and "agreements" among groups of journalists and their subjects happen quite a bit, and are a constant threat to press independence. They can't just be accepted.

 

[AM]

Had a chortle at the following para in a piece from the redoubtable Mungo McCallum.

It is true that Joyce, with his constant rabbiting on about family values, could be accused of hypocrisy and the point is a valid one. But he appears to have adhered strictly to at least one aspect of the teachings of his Catholic church: that it is wrong to use contraception.

So we can be absolutely sure the following has been well and truly photoshopped.

 

[JackOutback]

As someone that was a journalist, though never the heady heights of Canberra correspondent, the media absolutely dropped the ball here. Whether they were scared off by those in power angrily telling them it was a private matter or being too busy/lazy to realise there was more going on, I don't know. But everyone knew something not right was happening and chose not to report it. For *s sake, Barnaby made veiled attacks on Windsor's family situation while stepping out on his wife. That alone made his indiscretion newsworthy.

 

[NSWCROW]

As someone that was a journalist, though never the heady heights of Canberra correspondent, the media absolutely dropped the ball here. Whether they were scared off by those in power angrily telling them it was a private matter or being too busy/lazy to realise there was more going on, I don't know. But everyone knew something not right was happening and chose not to report it. For ****s sake, Barnaby made veiled attacks on Windsor's family situation while stepping out on his wife. That alone made his indiscretion newsworthy.

Dutton

 

[Demosthenes]

Inspired by Barnaby's playing the field where he has left his wife for a staffer (and since got her pregnant). Im interested by the SRP's views as there has been significant coverage of affairs through Australian political history (Hawke, Kernot etc).

My question for the SRP is if a candidate was to engage in a affair during their stay in office, would it convince you to vote for them or not change your vote at all.

Thoughts?

When it impacts how public business is conducted with taxpayer money, it impacts my vote.

The business surrounding this affair regarding fake jobs being created, travel rorts etc. are pretty relevant and emblematic of the regard that the bloke has for his responsibilities as a Minister of the Crown.

The relative silence out of all sides of politics regarding this dimension of the scandal is damning. There is a huge entitlement mentality amongst politicians regarding their expenses, and always has been. Would love to see the receipts from Hawke's time in office, reckon some of his 'entertainment' expenditure would be interesting.