List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

Is Ross still the man for the job?


  • Total voters
    332
Apr 25, 2011
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we came close to the flag and the close of our window was perhaps one of the most abrupt in AFL history...it took us by shock and I'm sure I'm not alone in still coming to terms with the window being slammed shut.

Our time when we were contending was at the worst possible time given that we needed a replacement Key forward, with the expansion clubs hoovering up all the top KPF's for years when a career length in AFL averages to 6 years. . We were the most severely affected, but not the only team that was wanting to replenish KPF stocks.

If that were different, it still might not have gotten us a flag, but we might have had a better chance at it.
 

Square Peg

Cancelled
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Jul 20, 2014
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Does it matter if we are in year 2, 3 or 4 of the rebuild? The facts are we've turned over half of our list in two trade and draft periods adding young talent to develop a squad capable of competing for a premiership. We will support the club whether we get flogged by 100 points and kick the winning goal after the siren.
Yes we will support regardless but the level of support happiness will vary depending on result, margin and the team on the park.
Win: happy days
Lose by small margin OR by large margin if playing the kids: not happy but not melting
Lose by large margin and not playing the kids: MELT

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk
 

Channels

All Australian
Dec 2, 2017
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That's what you say in every job though isn't it, under sell and over deliver. But team selection doesn't fit that narrative. When you select Sutcliffe, D Pearce ad Johnson over Hughes, Hamling, Logue and Cerra you're aiming for finals and not rebuilding.

Prefer an underdone Hamling over a fit MJ?

Same with Cerra, training reports say fitness not quite there yet.

So if we are being honest, the selection committee (important, it's not just Ross!) is picking the best and fittest team it thinks will win round 1.
 
george leaving the room.gif
 

GoFreo4eva

Freo Tragic Since the Beginning
Sep 15, 2013
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"We understand that we are rebuilding, it is on the agenda" Lyon, August of 2016.

Rebuilding in Lyon's own words before any draft had happened. The rebuild unquestionably commenced in 2016.

“If you look historically, we’re really going into our second year (of the rebuild) off our second draft.” March 2018.

No problem with the draft comment but it is a rewriting of history to suggest we are going into anything but the third year of our rebuild.
Nothing quite so tiresome as a pedant that has a narrative that must be agreed with.

Does it matter that his first utterance about “rebuilding” was late in the season of 2016?? The fact is you can’t really begin a rebuild without changing the list and you can’t do that in season. You can only change who on the list gets a game and this is what happened as a way of helping decide who was retained and who was let go.
 

_007_

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Jun 30, 2014
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Nothing quite so tiresome as a pedant that has a narrative that must be agreed with.

Does it matter that his first utterance about “rebuilding” was late in the season of 2016?? The fact is you can’t really begin a rebuild without changing the list and you can’t do that in season. You can only change who on the list gets a game and this is what happened as a way of helping decide who was retained and who was let go.
Do you know how many times people on this board have told me something along the lines of 'What would some nobody (me) on bigfooty know, I'll trust RTB over you' etc etc? Here we have a direct quote of Ross Lyon saying "We are rebuilding, it is (currently, not to be at some point in the future) on the agenda" and suddenly his own words don't mean anything. Suddenly it is you who knows better and I am still wrong lol. Typical. By your own admission we were aiming to decide who to keep or delist in 2016 (i.e we were actively undertaking a process necessary to rebuild a list in 2016).

Here's a quote from a 2017 article I found for your benefit;

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...-long-rebuild-to-the-top-20170307-gusbcd.html

"We're aiming high this year, but we all signed off on a four-year rebuild last year (that being 2016). Restump, rewire, replumb."

What struck me in particular was the way he seamlessly interchanges 'restump, rewire, replumb' and the term rebuild. It was almost as if they have meant the exact same thing the entire time and that the 3 r's are just more palatable/marketable to some fans. I mean, he is operating under financial pressure from above remember? Utterly implausible theory though right? Downright crazy I'm sure. Someone will be able to tell me what he really meant though so all good.

Since it seems that Ross Lyon's own words don't mean anything to you when they disagree with YOUR narrative, perhaps his actions will sway you.

Guess the years (games played in round 23 2013 and 2015 don't count as a debut as we were resting for finals);

4 debuts – total of 18 games. 2 players 1 game only. 12 by Jack Hannath covering injury.
3 debuts – total of 5 games. 1 was Simpson covering for Mayne.
3 debuts – total of 18 games. 1 in round 22 (didn’t include as tank game so as to avoid accusations of bias). Alex Pearce only debuted due to injury and played 13 of the 18.
6 debuts – total of 40 games. Could've been 7 debuts and 53 games if I included the player from round 22 the year before.

2013
2014
2015
2016

In Summary, 60% as many debuts and 99% as many games played by players that made a debut occurred in 2016 as occurred in the previous 3 years combined. 2016 was a rebuild. Ross is trying to manage expectations in recent times. There is nothing wrong with that, just be aware of it and acknowledge it. End of.
 

SHill Shall

Club Legend
Aug 22, 2009
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Do you know how many times people on this board have told me something along the lines of 'What would some nobody (me) on bigfooty know, I'll trust RTB over you' etc etc? Here we have a direct quote of Ross Lyon saying "We are rebuilding, it is (currently, not to be at some point in the future) on the agenda" and suddenly his own words don't mean anything. Suddenly it is you who knows better and I am still wrong lol. Typical. By your own admission we were aiming to decide who to keep or delist in 2016 (i.e we were actively undertaking a process necessary to rebuild a list in 2016).

Here's a quote from a 2017 article I found for your benefit;

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...-long-rebuild-to-the-top-20170307-gusbcd.html

"We're aiming high this year, but we all signed off on a four-year rebuild last year (that being 2016). Restump, rewire, replumb."

What struck me in particular was the way he seamlessly interchanges 'restump, rewire, replumb' and the term rebuild. It was almost as if they have meant the exact same thing the entire time and that the 3 r's are just more palatable/marketable to some fans. I mean, he is operating under financial pressure from above remember? Utterly implausible theory though right? Downright crazy I'm sure. Someone will be able to tell me what he really meant though so all good.

Since it seems that Ross Lyon's own words don't mean anything to you when they disagree with YOUR narrative, perhaps his actions will sway you.

Guess the years (games played in round 23 2013 and 2015 don't count as a debut as we were resting for finals);

4 debuts – total of 18 games. 2 players 1 game only. 12 by Jack Hannath covering injury.
3 debuts – total of 5 games. 1 was Simpson covering for Mayne.
3 debuts – total of 18 games. 1 in round 22 (didn’t include as tank game so as to avoid accusations of bias). Alex Pearce only debuted due to injury and played 13 of the 18.
6 debuts – total of 40 games. Could've been 7 debuts and 53 games if I included the player from round 22 the year before.

2013
2014
2015
2016

In Summary, 60% as many debuts and 99% as many games played by players that made a debut occurred in 2016 as occurred in the previous 3 years combined. 2016 was a rebuild. Ross is trying to manage expectations in recent times. There is nothing wrong with that, just be aware of it and acknowledge it. End of.

This time two years ago we were not in rebuild mode. At a point during the 2016 season we openly acknowledged we were in a rebuild. Therefore in playing season terms we are one and a half years into a rebuild.

Of course 2016 debut numbers are going to be massively up on the threee previous years when we were in contention. We have been through two drafts in rebuild mode but tomorrow is the first AFL match where we see the product of the most recent of those. By the time of the mid season bye or thereabouts we willl have been rebuilding for two years.

Imo Lyon is not pushing boundaries too much in terms of his rhetoric on the subject.
 

_007_

Club Legend
Jun 30, 2014
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This time two years ago we were not in rebuild mode. At a point during the 2016 season we openly acknowledged we were in a rebuild. Therefore in playing season terms we are one and a half years into a rebuild.

Of course 2016 debut numbers are going to be massively up on the threee previous years when we were in contention. We have been through two drafts in rebuild mode but tomorrow is the first AFL match where we see the product of the most recent of those. By the time of the mid season bye or thereabouts we willl have been rebuilding for two years.

Imo Lyon is not pushing boundaries too much in terms of his rhetoric on the subject.
The exact point in time the 'restumping' began was round 5 2016. 75% of a season is more than enough for me.
 

Clems Knee

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 15, 2009
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Do you know how many times people on this board have told me something along the lines of 'What would some nobody (me) on bigfooty know, I'll trust RTB over you' etc etc? Here we have a direct quote of Ross Lyon saying "We are rebuilding, it is (currently, not to be at some point in the future) on the agenda" and suddenly his own words don't mean anything. Suddenly it is you who knows better and I am still wrong lol. Typical. By your own admission we were aiming to decide who to keep or delist in 2016 (i.e we were actively undertaking a process necessary to rebuild a list in 2016).

Here's a quote from a 2017 article I found for your benefit;

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...-long-rebuild-to-the-top-20170307-gusbcd.html

"We're aiming high this year, but we all signed off on a four-year rebuild last year (that being 2016). Restump, rewire, replumb."

What struck me in particular was the way he seamlessly interchanges 'restump, rewire, replumb' and the term rebuild. It was almost as if they have meant the exact same thing the entire time and that the 3 r's are just more palatable/marketable to some fans. I mean, he is operating under financial pressure from above remember? Utterly implausible theory though right? Downright crazy I'm sure. Someone will be able to tell me what he really meant though so all good.

Since it seems that Ross Lyon's own words don't mean anything to you when they disagree with YOUR narrative, perhaps his actions will sway you.

Guess the years (games played in round 23 2013 and 2015 don't count as a debut as we were resting for finals);

4 debuts – total of 18 games. 2 players 1 game only. 12 by Jack Hannath covering injury.
3 debuts – total of 5 games. 1 was Simpson covering for Mayne.
3 debuts – total of 18 games. 1 in round 22 (didn’t include as tank game so as to avoid accusations of bias). Alex Pearce only debuted due to injury and played 13 of the 18.
6 debuts – total of 40 games. Could've been 7 debuts and 53 games if I included the player from round 22 the year before.

2013
2014
2015
2016

In Summary, 60% as many debuts and 99% as many games played by players that made a debut occurred in 2016 as occurred in the previous 3 years combined. 2016 was a rebuild. Ross is trying to manage expectations in recent times. There is nothing wrong with that, just be aware of it and acknowledge it. End of.

Mostly, the reason I disagree with you here is that I interpret this quote differently to you:
“We are rebuilding, it is on the agenda”
You’ve stuck your own interpretations in the middle of that sentence or truncated the sentence to suggest it was in the present. But agendas aren’t written after a meeting. They are written before a meeting. If you understand that, then you understand he was likely to be talking about the draft at the end of the season.

The fact that Lyon was reticent to use the term “rebuild” in the first half of the season shows that he used it to indicate a rebuild of the list. He did not seamlessly interchange the terms as you claim. He has always been consistent with this, even though he copped a fair bit of flak for using the terms “restump, rewire, replumb”.
He used those terms because during a season you can’t change the list. All you can do is move the list around.
So he gave debuts to the kids and put still serviceable players into the twos. Players like C Pearce, de Boer, Barlow, Mzungu. The decisions on who to get rid of were already made, but the rebuild would begin in November 2016.

The Age article you linked and the quotes from Lyon is more consistent with the list rebuild starting in November 2016 and the team rearrangements (restump) happening after round 5. Lyon said last year “we all signed off on a four-year rebuild last year”. This means he has been given 4 drafts, up to November 2019 to turn over the list.
The outcome of this will take longer as the last players to be drafted will take time to develop. Considering he is contracted to 2020, this makes a lot of sense.

Bottom line is: if you don’t know the meaning of words, you won’t understand why someone like Lyon will use them.
 

AlwaysFreo

Debutant
Mar 14, 2018
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I think he's taking an each way bet early in the season. If we happen to win a few early then the focus will be on making the 8. If we lose a few early then it will be full rebuild mode for the rest of the season. I can understand him testing the water early to see if we've got something this year. It will be interesting to see how it goes over the next few weeks.
 

_007_

Club Legend
Jun 30, 2014
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Mostly, the reason I disagree with you here is that I interpret this quote differently to you:
“We are rebuilding, it is on the agenda”
You’ve stuck your own interpretations in the middle of that sentence or truncated the sentence to suggest it was in the present. But agendas aren’t written after a meeting. They are written before a meeting. If you understand that, then you understand he was likely to be talking about the draft at the end of the season.

The fact that Lyon was reticent to use the term “rebuild” in the first half of the season shows that he used it to indicate a rebuild of the list. He did not seamlessly interchange the terms as you claim. He has always been consistent with this, even though he copped a fair bit of flak for using the terms “restump, rewire, replumb”.
He used those terms because during a season you can’t change the list. All you can do is move the list around.
So he gave debuts to the kids and put still serviceable players into the twos. Players like C Pearce, de Boer, Barlow, Mzungu. The decisions on who to get rid of were already made, but the rebuild would begin in November 2016.

The Age article you linked and the quotes from Lyon is more consistent with the list rebuild starting in November 2016 and the team rearrangements (restump) happening after round 5. Lyon said last year “we all signed off on a four-year rebuild last year”. This means he has been given 4 drafts, up to November 2019 to turn over the list.
The outcome of this will take longer as the last players to be drafted will take time to develop. Considering he is contracted to 2020, this makes a lot of sense.

Bottom line is: if you don’t know the meaning of words, you won’t understand why someone like Lyon will use them.
:rolleyes: ok.
 

heehaw

Rookie
Mar 3, 2018
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This time two years ago we were not in rebuild mode. At a point during the 2016 season we openly acknowledged we were in a rebuild.

It wasn't acknowledged as in so much Lyon had to feed the media something to excuse for the dismal performances and his poor coaching/selections.

Any rebuild should have started in 2014 but Lyon isn't committed either way and thats why he keeps changing his 'mantra'
 

SHill Shall

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Aug 22, 2009
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It wasn't acknowledged as in so much Lyon had to feed the media something to excuse for the dismal performances and his poor coaching/selections.

Any rebuild should have started in 2014 but Lyon isn't committed either way and thats why he keeps changing his 'mantra'

Delusion levels are high. If Mayne had kicked straight, umpires not conspired against Ballas and Sheridan not dropped an uncontested mark in the last, we were grand finalists in 2015. What dismal performances are you referring to before the first bounce in 2016?
 
Apr 25, 2011
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Any rebuild should have started in 2014 but Lyon isn't committed either way and thats why he keeps changing his 'mantra'

Nah. We weren't far off of a GF appearance in 2015 and our draft picks for 2014 and 2015 weren't suitable (though we hit paydirt with Weller, particularly when he morphed into Brayshaw).
 

Demons09

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Jan 12, 2009
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It wasn't acknowledged as in so much Lyon had to feed the media something to excuse for the dismal performances and his poor coaching/selections.

Any rebuild should have started in 2014 but Lyon isn't committed either way and thats why he keeps changing his 'mantra'

Yeah we should of started a rebuild in 2014, we started the season winning 9 straight in 2015 and finished first ffs, you and your mates on here should go back to the main board to get more advice from Plugger and Defleco about Ross and Freo.
 

_007_

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Jun 30, 2014
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Delusion levels are high. If Mayne had kicked straight, umpires not conspired against Ballas and Sheridan not dropped an uncontested mark in the last, we were grand finalists in 2015. What dismal performances are you referring to before the first bounce in 2016?
'If only our poor players weren't poor and there wasn't an umpiring conspiracy' - non delusional fan accuses other fan of delusion. Right. The 2nd half of 2015 was pretty bad from memory too.
 

ydraw

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 27, 2015
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For me the issue isn't really whether we're in a rebuild or not. As I said on the best 22 thread, it's no surprise that the club goes into every season rating themselves a chance of making finals, and therefore wanting to win first of all.

The issue is that when we want to win, we still pick people like D. Pearce and Sutcliffe. The issue is that the club still thinks role players are the way to win, even after it was shown last year that we were a better team without them.
 
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