Stalingrad - 75th anniversary of the defeat of the German 6th Army

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Gavin Excell said:
Not sure why the vitriol Bradesmaen.

I for one didnt know much at all about the Sorge story till Power Raid posted earlier. Not sure how pivotal it was to outomes but an interesting read all the same
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I knew about it long ago because I studied WW2.
 
Power Raid said:
You should consider reading about richard sorge

http://www.historynet.com/the-spy-who-saved-the-soviets.htm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge
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Almost all the troops transferred from the east to western Russia in 1941 were ordered west long before Sorge's information was received in Moscow. It simply was not a factor in the decision to move the troops.

The "Siberian' divisions saving Moscow and turning the campaign is a popular history meme that is mostly wrong, as always the history is in teh details,
 

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_Wildcard_ said:
It was Britain and France who declared war on Germany, not the other way around. There's a ton of evidence out there that Hitler never wanted a war with western Europe at all... but was forced into it due to various alliances being honoured. The Phoney War was basically all sides getting ready for a war they hadn't really planned for, but suddenly found themselves in.
And this is where I think Neville Chamberlain's actions prior to the onset of the war, traditionally condemned as "appeasement", were in fact a critical factor in Britain attaining at least a state of semi-preparedness for what lay ahead - there is little doubt in my mind that the Battle of Britain may have gone completely differently had it been fought a few months earlier than it was. Chamberlain deserves more credit for buying time and preparing to be embarrassed in doing so for the sake of England. I do not think him the weak leader he is traditionally portrayed as and I believe history has done him some disservice.

But still...
Remember the initial attack was on Czechoslovakia and Poland, not France. The term Drang Nach Osten had been around since the 19th century. And, as is so often played down, the Russians drove into Poland from the east a mere couple of weeks after Germany attacked from the west in 1939. They were always going to go at it at some point, and if not for England and France honouring their alliances with Poland, the entire course of the conflict would have been been completely different - as in, no war in Western Europe at all.
That Russia was able to drive into Poland from the other side within a mere couple of weeks of Germany's attack should be evidence that, in spite of the "poor, picked on Russia" people like to sympathise with, they were ready and willing to go into battle with only a few days notice in 1939.
And they did. At Poland's expense, to begin with. Russia was ready for war in September 1939, they just weren't ready for Germany. The Non-Aggression pact, that little no-war treaty Russia signed with Germany, also secretly provided for how the two were going to carve up North Eastern Europe and the Balkans between them. And then of course a little later the Tripartite pact was signed which effectively excluded the Russians completely - although the Russians did in fact want in on that quite badly.
The Russians wanted to be an Axis power as late as 1940, let's not forget that either.

But that the Russians were instigators almost as much as Germany was is very much whitewashed from the annals. Oh, and of course they invaded a few other neutral countries as well. But no one really noticed. Countries like Finland weren't on the Axis side because they wanted to be, they were on the Axis side because Russia were the aggressors and they needed an ally. Enemy of my enemy kind of thing.

There's so much bullshit surrounding this "Russia saved the world from Hitler" thing it's hard to breathe. They were only on the allies side by dint of bad planning and a failure to anticipate Germany, and little other reason. And that very fact meant that some smaller countries were sidelined and invaded without anyone raising so much as a peep because no one wanted to offend the heroic and noble Russians.

The only reason I think Hitler invaded France, after a lengthy delay to organise it, was that he never intended to to begin with and suddenly found himself with another front to contend with he hadn't completely prepared for. The Blitzkrieg was designed to neutralise France within a very short space of time so that the original plan - the drive East - could be implemented, but it took a bit of time to put together because it wasn't fully anticipated - hence the Phony War.
And it would have worked, had it not been for Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. If Germany had sent all those assets East rather than South in 1939, Russia would not be what it is today.
And I think the Tripartite pact excluded the Russians and included Japan not because of America, but because the the Germans were hoping the Japanese were still interested in adding Eastern Russia to their Asian sphere.

I very much doubt Hitler anticipated the French and English actually honouring the treaty with Poland - particularly not England, he saw the English as traditional rivals against France and was by most reports rather astounded the English were allied with the French against him to begin with. There is that little Rudolf Hess thing.
The British and French, by comparison, were dragged into it by means of honouring treaties in much the same way a mate might be dragged into a fight he really didn't want to be in but felt socially obligated to be.

The whole thing, in summary, was a complete and colossal utensil up. Probably should have just been a war between Russia and Germany (and the little ones getting belted up in the middle) but things got a tad out of hand.
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Some of your facts are arguable but your overall message is correct.

It's best summed up by the quote of the American president who nuked Japan. The only president to use the doomsday weapon on defenseless women and children

Truman was a senator when he said we should arm the Russians when the Germans are winning and then arm the Germans when the Russians are winning
 
Thegibbsgamble said:
Some of your facts are arguable but your overall message is correct.

It's best summed up by the quote of the American president who nuked Japan. The only president to use the doomsday weapon on defenseless women and children

Truman was a senator when he said we should arm the Russians when the Germans are winning and then arm the Germans when the Russians are winning
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it is interesting the british and allied nations didn't create a second front against germany until the caucus, north africa and India (japanese) were at risk. Essentially meaning germany would have taken control of the persian and iraqi oil putting not only britain at risk but the entire british empire.

so it does seem both britain and the US wanted an obliterated russia, germany and japan post war.

unfortunately they didn't hold their nerve long enough as they destroyed nazi germany but created an even bigger soviet stalin.
 
America also manafactured britian to her knees. Made her sign everything over america wanted and pay remuneration until 2006.


There will always be Yankee bases in blighty. Crime rates are always highest around American bases. Britian was always a Target of Russian nukes thanks to Americans.

Britian committed some horrible attocities around the world trying to get around the noose America held at her neck
 
Power Raid said:
it is interesting the british and allied nations didn't create a second front against germany until the caucus, north africa and India (japanese) were at risk.
.
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They did not do it because they simply lacked the capacity to launch an invasion before 1944. They looked at in 1943, the US lobbied hard but it was simply not practical . 1942 just way beyond their capability,

Power Raid said:
i
Essentially meaning germany would have taken control of the persian and iraqi oil putting not only britain at risk but the entire british empire.
.
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Germany never really were likely to conquer Egypt let alone Persia or Iraq. There was never ever any prospect of the Germans moving in the fertiel cresent,
The Logistics involved were horrendous. Just how exactly would any of that Oil be transferred back to Germany?

Logistics Matter.
 
pugsville said:
They did not do it because they simply lacked the capacity to launch an invasion before 1944. They looked at in 1943, the US lobbied hard but it was simply not practical . 1942 just way beyond their capability,



Germany never really were likely to conquer Egypt let alone Persia or Iraq. There was never ever any prospect of the Germans moving in the fertiel cresent,
The Logistics involved were horrendous. Just how exactly would any of that Oil be transferred back to Germany?

Logistics Matter.
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Why then promise a second front to Stalin?
 
Power Raid said:
Why then promise a second front to Stalin?
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Part dishonesty and part wishful thinking. There wasn't a lot of trust with western Allies and Stalin, they wanted Stalin and the soviets to keep fighting there were fears on both sides of a separate peace and being left to deal with dealing with the Germans alone,

A cross channel invasion in 1943 was risky, Generally the US was keen the British not. Churchill was obsessed with "the soft underbelly", Italy, the Balkans, Greece. As things progressed the buildup in resources in England was not progressing fast enough, they pulled the plug as they assessments were getting worse.
 
pugsville said:
Part dishonesty and part wishful thinking. There wasn't a lot of trust with western Allies and Stalin, they wanted Stalin and the soviets to keep fighting there were fears on both sides of a separate peace and being left to deal with dealing with the Germans alone,

A cross channel invasion in 1943 was risky, Generally the US was keen the British not. Churchill was obsessed with "the soft underbelly", Italy, the Balkans, Greece. As things progressed the buildup in resources in England was not progressing fast enough, they pulled the plug as they assessments were getting worse.
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Unfortunately this is simply not true.


 
Thegibbsgamble said:
Unfortunately this is simply not true.
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(a) an hour long video with no referemce about what part is relevent>?

(b) a video about US making war of the frontier 1607 -1814 just don;t strike me as relevant to 1942-44.

You got an actual point here ? could you make it a bit clearer? What part is simply not true? and what evidence that it's not true?
 
pugsville said:
(a) an hour long video with no referemce about what part is relevent>?

(b) a video about US making war of the frontier 1607 -1814 just don;t strike me as relevant to 1942-44.

You got an actual point here ? could you make it a bit clearer? What part is simply not true? and what evidence that it's not true?
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How much time have you wasted with this retort? When you could of been watching the video by an acclaimed American war historian speaking to Americans officers studying American military history at an American military collage. All your answers are in the video
 
Thegibbsgamble said:
How much time have you wasted with this retort? When you could of been watching the video by an acclaimed American war historian speaking to Americans officers studying American military history at an American military collage. All your answers are in the video
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hmm took me all of 2 minutes versus an hour long video. You could have quickly answered my questions in you replay rather than referring to an hour long video., Yeah there 1 free kick in a game you want me to look at but you want to watch the entire game.

Do you want to actually say something or continue being unreasonable?
 

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pugsville said:
hmm took me all of 2 minutes versus an hour long video. You could have quickly answered my questions in you replay rather than referring to an hour long video., Yeah there 1 free kick in a game you want me to look at but you want to watch the entire game.

Do you want to actually say something or continue being unreasonable?
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Ok since you insisted.

 
Power Raid said:
it is interesting the british and allied nations didn't create a second front against germany until the caucus, north africa and India (japanese) were at risk. Essentially meaning germany would have taken control of the persian and iraqi oil putting not only britain at risk but the entire british empire.

so it does seem both britain and the US wanted an obliterated russia, germany and japan post war.

unfortunately they didn't hold their nerve long enough as they destroyed nazi germany but created an even bigger soviet stalin.
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How exactly was an exhausted army (still recovering as a nation from WW1) going to put a stop to a Russian juggernaut? Russia who had plans of toppling the West since 1917. Both sides were itching for a crack but had to recover.

Cold War was probably the best thing. As in it delayed what seemed inevitable and people like JFk and Krutchnov were able to avoid WW3. True rather than wait 40 years they could've gone to battle for a winner take all but that would've potentially destroyed the world.
 
Run n Spread said:
How exactly was an exhausted army (still recovering as a nation from WW1) going to put a stop to a Russian juggernaut? Russia who had plans of toppling the West since 1917. Both sides were itching for a crack but had to recover.

Cold War was probably the best thing. As in it delayed what seemed inevitable and people like JFk and Krutchnov were able to avoid WW3. True rather than wait 40 years they could've gone to battle for a winner take all but that would've potentially destroyed the world.
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Crucifychecks and JFK were ending the cold war until the cia assasinated JFK. They were bringing down the military industrial complex responsible for wars going back to the 1800's

Cia was a copy of the gestapo ironically
 
Thegibbsgamble said:
Crucifychecks and JFK were ending the cold war until the cia assasinated JFK. They were bringing down the military industrial complex responsible for wars going back to the 1800's

Cia was a copy of the gestapo ironically
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Part Nazi thrown in. It is amazing how much certain sectors of Germany and the US were aligned at the time.
 
Run n Spread said:
Part Nazi thrown in. It is amazing how much certain sectors of Germany and the US were aligned at the time.
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America had huge investments in German arms company's. So naturally alot of things in common.

Hollywood made properganda movies to cover Germany's arse.

 
Gavin Excell said:
It defies comprehension
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I found this a little while ago, The Fallen of World War II, well worth a watch if you haven't seen it before. It's a little long but very powerful

 
Present Not Past said:
There's no doubt that Russia deserves it's place as a permanent member on the UN Security Council.
Russia and it's people paid a huge cost in destroying the German Nazi regime,
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My grandfather was born in the Austro Hungarian Empire and ended up fighting for Hungary on the Russian front.

He told a story the the Russians would attack in a constant wave where the guys at the front would carry a rifle. They would be mowed down by machine gun, only for the unarmed men charging behind to pick up the rifle and continue the charge.

The Russians knew the machine gunners would run out of ammo, even if just a change of feed or the machine gun barrels would get so hot they would bow.

To avoid the machine gun barrels bowing, a second axis soldier would rub snow along the barrel but this ultimately made the weapon brittle and finally explode.

The granddad I knew was a wonderful man but no doubt a man that carried demons. Seeing and being a part of such bloody and close quarter combat took its toll. However he claimed the biggest fear on the Russian front was the cold........fall asleep in minus 40 and you freeze to death.

So your either in brutal combat with an enemy so great in number you’re either overwhelmed and killed or tearing through a wall of human flesh just 50 yards away. Or sitting awaiting in minus 40 barely keeping your eyes open, next to your hard as ice fellow soldier who fell victim to exhaustion.
 
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