Play Nice Society, Religion & Politics Thread

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Kirkswan said:
Surely it depends on where you are standing? Who decides what is fair? Is it fair that only one person determines whats fair? Is what's fair for you also what is fair for me?
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You will have to explain what you mean with each of those questions.
Fairness is an outcome, an end, not a means.
 
Kirkswan said:
I am not trying to suggest that the standard of umpiring is acceptable. And, yes they do control the game via umpiring. It's how they control the direction that the game is developing.

What I am saying is that there is no controvertible evidence to support a conspiracy, nor is it likely imo, regardless of any and all circumstantial evidence. Any type of umpiring conspiracy in favour of, or specifically against, a particular team is not in the AFLs best interests.
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You can get convicted of murder with circumstantial evidence but circumstantial evidence can't point to an AFL umpiring conspiracy?
 
Kirkswan said:
We are not talking about apartheid or KKK, this is not life threatening persecution nor are we without choice. To compare a game of Aussie Rules to these is pretty poor form on your behalf imo.

Fairness is subjective... as I am very sure you know.

We have plenty of choices. We can leave the AFL and start a new league of all the interstate clubs at the end of our contracts. We can leave the AFL and join the NEAFL. We can convert to League, start up an international rules league, follow synchronised swimming. That these choices are not palatable to us, does make them any less choice we can make.

Life is not fair, ask anyone...
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I wasn't drawing parallel between apartheid and AFL. I was seeking to make the point that inequity is thrust upon us in even the most inequitable of situations because of disparity in power. Acceptance of the inequity when there is such disparity can't be a reasonable excuse- we 'chose' it therefore accept it. No sorry something is either fair or unfair (and objectively most of us understand where that line lies) and if unfair then certainly we should agitate for change.
 

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swansfan51 said:
The most concerning thing is that you believe yourself to be capable or worthy of objectively determining the sole standard of fairness that should apply to others.
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That is no more than a snide personal remark because your argument is rubbish.
 
swansfan51 said:
Take it to the SRP board, but that's completely untrue.

For a start, there are multiple ideas of what is meant by fairness. Here are just 3 as an example

1) Sameness - fairness is where everything is equal. So no one has more than another, everyone pays the same price for their ticket or good. Fairness is finding the average and applying it to everyone across the board (fairness as equality of outcome)

2) Deservedness - fairness is where you keep what you earn, and others keep what they earn. The hardest working, smartest, and most diligent will have more due to these attributes. The lazy, indifferent and inept will have less due to those attributes (fairness as individual responsibility and individual liberty)

3) "Need" - fairness is that those who have more to give should give a greater percentage of what they earn than others. This is effectively a mid-point between "fairness as equality" and "fairness as individual responsibility", with several factors determining where it sits on the spectrum: the level of contribution, the level of compulsion, etc.

None of these concepts are prima facie correct or incorrect, they all rely on a values system, and are by definition subjective. The most concerning thing is that you believe yourself to be capable or worthy of objectively determining the sole standard of fairness that should apply to others.
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I agree with all of this except for the last line...

Number37 said:
You will have to explain what you mean with each of those questions.
Fairness is an outcome, an end, not a means.
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They denote that the sentence preceding them was a question. As in all three of those sentences were questions to you.
 
Number37 said:
That is no more than a snide personal remark because your argument is rubbish.
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Those were your words:
Number37 said:
Fairness is as far from subjective as something can get.
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If you think fairness is not subjective, you believe it is objective, which means you must be able to determine that standard.
 
Kirkswan said:
I agree with all of this except for the last line...


They denote that the sentence preceding them was a question. As in all three of those sentences were questions to you.
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Those questions are meaningless.

We have centre bounces in Aussie Rules at the start of the game and after each goal.
We have centre bounces because it is fair to both teams.
The fairness of a centre bounce does not change because Aaron Sandilands is competing against Caleb Daniel.

We have identical goals at each end of an Aussie rules ground.
The fairness of the goals does not change because there is a gale blowing to one end.
 
Number37 said:
You can get convicted of murder with circumstantial evidence but circumstantial evidence can't point to an AFL umpiring conspiracy?
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Yes.
 
Kirkswan said:
Don't get caught up in the 'umpiring' conspiracy theory until you've watched every game played this year... then you'll realise it is not just us! The umpiring across the league has been very inconsistent, sometimes outright poor; but not just against us!
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You've watched every game this year then?

I don't think youre taking it far enough anyway. If you haven't watched every game ever, you can't have an opinion on the umpiring. Its just not holistic.
 
puke said:
I wasn't drawing parallel between apartheid and AFL. I was seeking to make the point that inequity is thrust upon us in even the most inequitable of situations because of disparity in power. Acceptance of the inequity when there is such disparity can't be a reasonable excuse- we 'chose' it therefore accept it. No sorry something is either fair or unfair (and objectively most of us understand where that line lies) and if unfair then certainly we should agitate for change.
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I agree with all of that, except the fair bit. I just don't think we are being persecuted.
 
swansfan51 said:
Those were your words:

If you think fairness is not subjective, you believe it is objective, which means you must be able to determine that standard.
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In a game the rules are predetermined. Fair to both teams.
The rules are drafted objectively in their entirety.

In terms of all other things it depends on your philosophical leanings. E.g. Deontology (like is used in all games) or Utility.
Specific to your previous examples, you are confusing equality with fairness.
 
Cheer Red Blood said:
You've watched every game this year then?

I don't think youre taking it far enough anyway. If you haven't watched every game ever, you can't have an opinion on the umpiring. Its just not holistic.
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You're right, I haven't watched every game this year. But I have watched a hell of a lot of them due to my current situation (just about anything is better than day time tv!). And it seems to me that the umpiring is poor across all games, and that in each game at least one umpire is out of sync with the other two.
 
Number37 said:
Those questions are meaningless.

We have centre bounces in Aussie Rules at the start of the game and after each goal.
We have centre bounces because it is fair to both teams.
The fairness of a centre bounce does not change because Aaron Sandilands is competing against Caleb Daniel.

We have identical goals at each end of an Aussie rules ground.
The fairness of the goals does not change because there is a gale blowing to one end.
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Okay, we are never going to agree because our interpretation of fairness is different. You're saying that only certain circumstances impact on fairness, and I'm saying that is what makes it subjective.
 

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Although this began as a topic relevant to footy I think in recent posts the discussion as veered off towards a more general debate about concepts of fairness, hence it's been moved.
 
Cloud_ said:
Although this began as a topic relevant to footy I think in recent posts the discussion as veered off towards a more general debate about concepts of fairness, hence it's been moved.
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It's all relevant to the discussion. Should not have been moved just because there is disagreement.
 
Number37 said:
It's all relevant to the discussion. Should not have been moved just because there is disagreement.
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Not moved because there was disagreement; moved because it was no longer about footy. Disagreement is fine :)
 
RobbieK said:
You are allowed to have your opinions. I'm allowed to try and get you to justify them.

The cheer squad regularly has an Aboriginal flag flying in it too. It shows that we support the Aboriginal players and supporters that we have in our club. I don't see why that support and inclusion should only be expressed one day a year.
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PC is f ing the world
 
bedford said:
No it's f'd , a generation lost to ice etc and people afraid to say what they feel. Imagine if we had a Hetro march , imagine the outcry .
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Who is afraid to speak? People that want to say racist, sexist and homophobic stuff? That's better than the gay fearing being outed, the sexually assaulted being forced into silent shame, isn't it? What do you want to say that you can't any more?

A generation lost to ice? All because you can't be mean to minorities with impunity anymore? I'd love to see how you stretch that logic.

Why should there be a hetero match? It would be like our senate voting to say it is ok to be white...
 
RobbieK said:
Who is afraid to speak? People that want to say racist, sexist and homophobic stuff? That's better than the gay fearing being outed, the sexually assaulted being forced into silent shame, isn't it? What do you want to say that you can't any more?

A generation lost to ice? All because you can't be mean to minorities with impunity anymore? I'd love to see how you stretch that logic.

Why should there be a hetero match? It would be like our senate voting to say it is ok to be white...[/QUOTE
It is ok to be white , why not , it is ok to be black , it is ok to be of different religions, or gay , but don't shove it down our throats .
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bedford said:
It is ok to be white , why not , it is ok to be black , it is ok to be of different religions, or gay , but don't shove it down our throats .
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I'll take your non answer to those questions as an aknowledgement that you don't have any particularly good ones to hand.

Every time the club does anything to engage gay fans you complain. I don't think the issue is things being "forced down your throat" as much as you have no sensitivity to any sort of positive messaging to our clubs gay fans. Why?

If you really are feeling so oppressed by the positive messaging maybe spare a thought for those of us who have been (and continue to be despite improvements) on the receiving end of actual oppression as a result of our gender, sexuality or race? Check that straight, white male privilege, bedford.
 
RobbieK said:
I'll take your non answer to those questions as an aknowledgement that you don't have any particularly good ones to hand.

Every time the club does anything to engage gay fans you complain. I don't think the issue is things being "forced down your throat" as much as you have no sensitivity to any sort of positive messaging to our clubs gay fans. Why?

If you really are feeling so oppressed by the positive messaging maybe spare a thought for those of us who have been (and continue to be despite improvements) on the receiving end of actual oppression as a result of our gender, sexuality or race? Check that straight, white male privilege, bedford.
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I'm not oppressed at all , I have gay members of my family who I love , it's just I don't want it shoved down my throat , others would. Nothing wrong with being black or white as well . Some people just need to pull back and enjoy their own lives , I try to , but living with drugs is my biggest issue !
 
bedford said:
I'm not oppressed at all , I have gay members of my family who I love , it's just I don't want it shoved down my throat , others would. Nothing wrong with being black or white as well . Some people just need to pull back and enjoy their own lives , I try to , but living with drugs is my biggest issue !
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I am still bewildered how us getting an award for our work promoting LGBTI acceptance or a rainbow flag in the cheer squad is evidence of anything being forced down your throat.

And I have no idea how promoting anti-sexist, anti-racist and anti-homophobic messages has anything to do with drug addiction.

Maybe you should take your own advice, pull back and enjoy your own life, and let the club support its gay members without heckling it every single time? It really makes it seem like you have a problem with it.
 
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