Tony Lockett Vs Lance Franklin - How being a forward has changed

[Paul Kersey]

Lockett would be a more effective Hawkins in this day and age. He couldn't whack blokes or smash them on the lead. He'd have more than the extra man back in front of him to deal with. If he didn't mark it he'd be useless. That's the reason players like him are dinosaurs - there's no role for the one trick pony these days. Ablett Snr would still thrive IMO as he wasn't just a lead/mark/kick player. How would Franklin go in an era of being able to whack blokes and play one out? He would kill it. Anyone who thinks that he wouldn't enjoy crunching blokes hasn't watched him play.

 

[Paul Kersey]

I rushed the field when Plugger kicked number 1300. I'll be rushing the field when Buddy cracks 1000.

Yeah - hopefully comes late next year. Will be sensational.

 

[HeHateMe]

Yeah - hopefully comes late next year. Will be sensational.

And against hawthorn.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[J_Moore]

Franklin isn't even close to Ablett Snr in comparison.

Yes he is. Near identical disposals and marks per game across their career.

Ablett obviously beats him on goals per game, as all those 80s/90s forwards do.

Although their ‘at same age’ stats are even closer still for most seasons of their careers. Ablett’s goal per game average blows out because of those final 4 years at FF.

I mean, really, they’re very similar players - hybrid key forward/flankers who don’t really play traditional positions.

 

[The Dice Man]

Lockett wouldnt even get drafted in today's football, sadly.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Lockett wouldnt even get drafted in today's football, sadly.

Possibly. It is sad to think that. It'd be interesting to see if having a monster like him would work in today's football. No one really plays that stay at home beast any more. If you had a Plugger it might just work out. Clear out the forward 50, leave him alone and force the defense to set up with extra men back to stop him, allowing you to play extra men around the ground and either kick it deep or run it into the forward 50. I suspect that defenses would cope

 

[Snake_Baker]

CHF vs FF though.

HFF vs FF

 

[Bardo State]

One of the only measures for how good a forward plays that can be compare across time is Brownlow votes. Here are the top 30 VFL/AFL key forwards (as far as I can tell) for Brownlow votes per game

1. Darrel Baldock - 0.64 (62-68)
2. Lance Franklin - 0.61 (06-18)
3. Fred Flanagan - 0.58 (46-55)
4. Peter Hudson - 0.56 (67-74, 77)
5. Ross Glendinning - 0.55 (78-88)
6. Jason Dunstall - 0.52 (85-98)
7. Wayne Carey - 0.51 (89-01, 03-04)
8. Matthew Richardson - 0.50 (93-09)
9. Nick Riewoldt - 0.48 (01-17)
10. Ken Fraser - 0.48 (58-68)

11. Jonathan Brown - 0.47 (00-14)
12. Adam Goodes - 0.47 (99-15)
13. Tony Lockett - 0.47 (83-99, 02)
14. Malcolm Blight - 0.44 (74-82)
15. Fred Goldsmith - 0.44 (51-59)
16. Gary Ablett Sr - 0.43 (82, 84-97)
17. Jack Mueller - 0.42 (34-50)
18. Stewart Loewe - 0.40 (86-02)
19. Jack Collins (GEE) - 0.40 (29-34, 38)
20. David Cloke - 0.38 (74-91)

21. Jack Collins (FOOT) - 0.38 (50-58)
22. Matthew Lloyd - 0.38 (95 - 09)
23. Matthew Pavlich - 0.37 (00-16)
24. Paul Salmon - 0.36 (83-00, 02)
25. Ted Whitten - 0.36 (51-70)
26. Josh Kennedy - 0.35 (06-18)
27. Jim Ross - 0.35 (46-54)
28. Ray Poulter - 0.35 (46-56)
29. John Hendrie - 0.35 (72-82)
30. Corey McKernan - 0.34 (93-04)

I think the league has become particularly hostile to goal kicking key forwards since about 2010, getting progressively harder each year. Franklin is a massive outlier because he's a freak. I feel this probably hurts guys like Jack Riewoldt, Jeremy Cameron and Josh Kennedy the most. Guys that would otherwise be brilliant goal kicking full-forwards. Ultimately their goal tallies won't stack up like they would if their best footy was played in the early 00s or 90s.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Yes he is. Near identical disposals and marks per game across their career.

Ablett obviously beats him on goals per game, as all those 80s/90s forwards do.

Although their ‘at same age’ stats are even closer still for most seasons of their careers. Ablett’s goal per game average blows out because of those final 4 years at FF.

I mean, really, they’re very similar players - hybrid key forward/flankers who don’t really play traditional positions.

Were you alive to watch Snr?

Ablett played wing/half forward for most of his career.

 

[kranky al]

Hes tiny now comparatively

https://wwos.nine.com.au/2017/03/23/09/05/tony-lockett-speaks-out-about-weight-loss

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

One of the only measures for how good a forward plays that can be compare across time is Brownlow votes. Here are the top 30 VFL/AFL key forwards (as far as I can tell) for Brownlow votes per game

1. Darrel Baldock - 0.64
2. Lance Franklin - 0.61
3. Fred Flanagan - 0.58
4. Peter Hudson - 0.56
5. Ross Glendinning - 0.55
6. Jason Dunstall - 0.52
7. Wayne Carey - 0.51
8. Matthew Richardson - 0.50
9. Nick Riewoldt - 0.48
10. Ken Fraser - 0.48

11. Jonathan Brown - 0.47
12. Adam Goodes - 0.47
13. Tony Lockett - 0.47
14. Malcolm Blight - 0.44
15. Fred Goldsmith - 0.44
16. Gary Ablett Sr - 0.43
17. Jack Mueller - 0.42
18. Stewart Loewe - 0.40
19. Jack Collins (GEE) - 0.40
20. David Cloke - 0.38

21. Jack Collins (FOOT) - 0.38
22. Matthew Lloyd - 0.38
23. Matthew Pavlich - 0.37
24. Paul Salmon - 0.36
25. Ted Whitten - 0.36
26. Josh Kennedy - 0.35
27. Jim Ross - 0.35
28. Ray Poulter - 0.35
29. John Hendrie - 0.35
30. Corey McKernan

Brownlow votes. Lol.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

The obvious difference between the two is now you have to run around the whole field not park yourself near the goal square for 2 hours.

 

[Bardo State]

Brownlow votes. Lol.

Your choice whether you take anything away from it. I wasn't posting it as a definitive best of all time list.

I find it more interesting to see in what time periods key forwards are getting lots of votes (meaning that they are the players most impacting the game). Quite a few names who played their best footy in the 00s but then a noticeable drop-off for the 10s. I think the ability of a key forward to impact a game has dropped off sharply in the 2010s due to the increased congestion and tackling. Inside 50 entries are far less effective at generating scores now than they were in the 00s.

To me, this means that key forwards from the 00s and prior (perhaps back to the 70s) wouldn't have the same effect on the game now as they did in their own time. Perhaps with the exception of less conventional forwards like Ablett Sr (in the same way that Buddy is still able to make an impact because he isn't just a lead up forward). Conversely, I think it's quite possible that someone like Josh Kennedy would be kicking the ton if he played in his prime in the early/mid 00s.

 

[J_Moore]

Were you alive to watch Snr?

Ablett played wing/half forward for most of his career.

I would say roaming half forward would best describe Ablett. He certainly wasn’t a traditional winger. I’d argue Franklin has spent a significant part of his career as a roaming forward, too, much to the chagrin of a certain type of Swan or Hawks fans.

He definitely isn’t a stay at home forward, nor is he a traditional CHF like Carey.

It’s not a far-fetched comparison, in either role or output.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Your choice whether you take anything away from it. I wasn't posting it as a definitive best of all time list.

I find it more interesting to see in what time periods key forwards are getting lots of votes (meaning that they are the players most impacting the game). Quite a few names who played their best footy in the 00s but then a noticeable drop-off for the 10s. I think the ability of a key forward to impact a game has dropped off sharply in the 2010s due to the increased congestion and tackling. Inside 50 entries are far less effective at generating scores now than they were in the 00s.

To me, this means that key forwards from the 00s and prior (perhaps back to the 70s) wouldn't have the same effect on the game now as they did in their own time. Perhaps with the exception of less conventional forwards like Ablett Sr (in the same way that Buddy is still able to make an impact because he isn't just a lead up forward). Conversely, I think it's quite possible that someone like Josh Kennedy would be kicking the ton if he played in his prime in the early/mid 00s.

Brownlow votes are irrelevant. The whole award has zero credibility. I remember Ablett Snr kicking bags of 10 on a regular basis when he was moved to FF in 93 and the most votes he could manage for a season was 13 from memory despite kicking the ton 3 times.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

It’s not a far-fetched comparison, in either role or output.

There is no comparison, you're right.

Franklin sits comfortably two tiers below.

 

[Bardo State]

Brownlow votes are irrelevant. The whole award has zero credibility. I remember Ablett Snr kicking bags of 10 on a regular basis when he was moved to FF in 93 and the most votes he could manage for a season was 13 from memory despite kicking the ton 3 times.

Maybe Ablett was shafted by umpires. Doesn't change the point I was making. 6 players in the top 25 played some of their best football in the 00s. Only 2 played some of their best football in the 10s (even then Riewoldt basically played his best as a wing and franklin as a half forward).

 

[radiojake]

Lockett 475 more goals, but Franklin 45 more behinds

 

[Topkent]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/st...e/news-story/5a6bebc9f974998d850e4a7a2c0f6c9c

It's an older article but it shows that, contrary to the general view, goal kicking accuracy has risen on average. Plugger was a particularly accurate shot for goal though.

Bullshit. There's no wind at grounds, no mud, no suburban grounds. Plus majority of shots are from the the goalsquare now.

 

[Boomerfan99]

This weekend Lance Franklin will play his 281st game of AFL football. This ties him on the same amount of games as Tony Lockett.

Now we all know that Plugger and Buddy were/are the forward line stars of there generations but just taking a look at total goals over the same amount of games show how much the game has changed in relation to being a forward.

Buddy is very much a player who roams all over the ground and can pretty much play all positions from midfield to the front half of the ground where as Plugger was the definition of a stay at home full forward


Lockett: 281 Games - 1360 Goals 590 Behinds

Franklin: 280 Games - 889 Goals 635 Behinds

In Goal tally alone there is a 471 goal difference - what would Buddy have kicked if he played in the era of Lockett Dunstall Ablett Snr ?

What would Lockett have kicked in this era of basically not being able to touch a forward without giving away a free kick?


Plugger really did make the most of his disposals in his career. He kicked a goal with every 1.74 kicks he had that's not just at Goal that's kicking 1 in almost every 2 kicks and scoring with every 1.21 kicks

Disposals per game 10.20
Goals per game 4.84


Buddy has averaged more Kicks (11.01) than Lockett averaged disposals per game.

Disposals per game 15.68
Goals per game 3.17.


I doubt the game will ever see another Buddy Franklin and it definitely won't see another Tony Lockett, Buddy will be the last man to kick 1000 goals in his career and even as an opposition fan it has been a privilege to watch them both play


It may be the same game by name but if we didn't know already the game has changed much in the past 35 years

As you say the game has changed majorly since Plugger changed. But still amazed how many goals he has got compared to Buddy (who is the star forward over the last 15 years).

 

[J_Moore]

There is no comparison, you're right.

Franklin sits comfortably two tiers below.

I’m extremely into the Denis Denuto line of argument about Ablett’s greatness.

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

Of all the full forwards of lockets era.

Modra would get picked first.

 

[Bardo State]

One of the only measures for how good a forward plays that can be compare across time is Brownlow votes. Here are the top 30 VFL/AFL key forwards (as far as I can tell) for Brownlow votes per game

1. Darrel Baldock - 0.64 (62-68)
2. Lance Franklin - 0.61 (06-18)
3. Fred Flanagan - 0.58 (46-55)
4. Peter Hudson - 0.56 (67-74, 77)
5. Ross Glendinning - 0.55 (78-88)
6. Jason Dunstall - 0.52 (85-98)
7. Wayne Carey - 0.51 (89-01, 03-04)
8. Matthew Richardson - 0.50 (93-09)
9. Nick Riewoldt - 0.48 (01-17)
10. Ken Fraser - 0.48 (58-68)

11. Jonathan Brown - 0.47 (00-14)
12. Adam Goodes - 0.47 (99-15)
13. Tony Lockett - 0.47 (83-99, 02)
14. Malcolm Blight - 0.44 (74-82)
15. Fred Goldsmith - 0.44 (51-59)
16. Gary Ablett Sr - 0.43 (82, 84-97)
17. Jack Mueller - 0.42 (34-50)
18. Stewart Loewe - 0.40 (86-02)
19. Jack Collins (GEE) - 0.40 (29-34, 38)
20. David Cloke - 0.38 (74-91)

21. Jack Collins (FOOT) - 0.38 (50-58)
22. Matthew Lloyd - 0.38 (95 - 09)
23. Matthew Pavlich - 0.37 (00-16)
24. Paul Salmon - 0.36 (83-00, 02)
25. Ted Whitten - 0.36 (51-70)
26. Josh Kennedy - 0.35 (06-18)
27. Jim Ross - 0.35 (46-54)
28. Ray Poulter - 0.35 (46-56)
29. John Hendrie - 0.35 (72-82)
30. Corey McKernan - 0.34 (93-04)

I think the league has become particularly hostile to goal kicking key forwards since about 2010, getting progressively harder each year. Franklin is a massive outlier because he's a freak. I feel this probably hurts guys like Jack Riewoldt, Jeremy Cameron and Josh Kennedy the most. Guys that would otherwise be brilliant goal kicking full-forwards. Ultimately their goal tallies won't stack up like they would if their best footy was played in the early 00s or 90s.

To put further emphasis on the point, I made the above graphic. This shows what years the top 30 forwards (as judged by Brownlow votes per game) have been playing in. You can see that it has been trending down since the turn of the century, getting to levels not seen since the 70s.

 

[My name geoff]

Do you think that key forwards have just become substantially worse players since the 80s/90s? Your conclusions would mean that the best forwards over the last decade would be only bit part players then, while any decent forward of the 80s/90s would probably be the best forward of the 2000s.

Do you think that maybe, possibly, it has become a bit harder for key forwards to kick goals and not easier? You know, instead of the forward talent just having dropped off a cliff for no reason?

Biggest Nuffie argumanet getting around the ‘imagine how many more goals Lockett etc would kick today.’

It is blatantly evident that it was much easier for forwards to kick goals in past generations. Dunstall laughing on air during a game a few weeks ago about all the bags of 15 he kicked. Full back of the century Stephen Silvagni kicked a bag of 10 ffs. Fevola never did that once in his career.

Buddy is the best forward and probably the best player of all-time and as a forward I don’t even think it’s close. Just look at how far ahead franklin is to his contemporaries compared to Lockett etc. that speaks volumes in my view.

 

[Bardo State]

Biggest Nuffie argumanet getting around the ‘imagine how many more goals Lockett etc would kick today.’

It is blatantly evident that it was much easier for forwards to kick goals in past generations. Dunstall laughing on air during a game a few weeks ago about all the bags of 15 he kicked. Full back of the century Stephen Silvagni kicked a bag of 10 ffs. Fevola never did that once in his career.

Buddy is the best forward and probably the best player of all-time and as a forward I don’t even think it’s close. Just look at how far ahead franklin is to his contemporaries compared to Lockett etc. that speaks volumes in my view.

I think all time claims are so hard to make in footy. How do you even compare Buddy to Coleman or Hudson?

I do think you're right that he certainly deserves to be talked about in the same light as the great forwards of the 80s and 90s.