Brexit - The UK referendum on leaving the EU - Reneging, reshmeging!

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"Hard right"? What universe is your mind in?

Leaving the European Union means removing one's self from the political apparatus of the European Union. The economic stuff is less important, but the current 'deal' they're suggesting involves remaining attached to both. There is no way that can be called leaving the European Union.

I would have thought the economic impacts are incredibly important, hence May trying to make the landing as soft as possible. Seems they’ll go with crash or crash through.

And what the * is a Blairite Liberal? A centrist?
 
Are you ******* serious? you are desperately trying to backflip now. I posted.



To which you replied:


How is it related to UK????? i am not talking about them moving to netherlands etc? i am telling you migrants coming to mainland EU got little to do with UK, this was project fear.

On the other hand, a bloke given refugee status in the UK can roam freely anywhere in the EU. That is ironic, but your argument is a strawman right from the beginning UK doesnt recognise EU refugee permits, they need to go through normal tourist/settlement visa route which even i had to go through when i moved to the UK

If you can read german:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiseausweis_für_Flüchtlinge

Vertragsparteien sind derzeit: Belgien, Dänemark, Deutschland, Finnland, Frankreich, Irland, Island, Italien, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg, Malta, Niederlande, Norwegen, Österreich, Polen, Portugal, Rumänien, Schweden, Schweiz, Slowakei, Spanien, Tschechische Republik und das Vereinigte Königreich. Frankreich und das Vereinigte Königreich haben das Übereinkommen zwar ratifiziert, aber zwischenzeitlich entsprechend einer Klausel, die dies zulässt, erklärt, es bis auf Weiteres nicht mehr anwenden zu wollen.

whatever we are discussing doesn't apply to the UK, EU freedom of movement is nonexistent in case of refugees in correlation to UK. I cannot explain this any easier.



Do tell, what appropriate EU status does a refugee need to travel to UK without a visa (without an EU passport or not being married to an EU citizen). I was a holder of aussie passport and married to a swedish citizen and even i needed a visa to live in the UK for longer than 90 days. A refugee with a permanent status in the EU holding a 10 year permit would still ******* need a visa to travel to the UK.

I done with this ****

Get your head around this: the relevance of the migrant crisis is not in the freedom of refugees to be able to immediately move to the United Kingdom. I never said this, and you are so obsessed with claiming that I did that you are going into a fit of rage over it - which does nothing to help your argument.

The relevance is in the fact that Britain, like every member of the European Union, must let EU citizens enter the country. The hundreds of thousands of supposed refugees that were shown coming into Europe by the Leave campaign? Each has the intention of becoming an EU citizen. We are already seeing, of course, that the Europe cannot absorb this number of people, and that is true of Britain to a great degree (despite being a prime location for many).

Perhaps I confused you by using the term "it," which you interpreted to mean migrant quotas. If so, apologies for not being clearer - but that wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the migrant crisis, with mass immigration being something that the people don't want, which is why the images were powerful.

I would have thought the economic impacts are incredibly important, hence May trying to make the landing as soft as possible. Seems they’ll go with crash or crash through.

If May really cared about that, she'd be chasing after the Norway option for the short-to-medium term, because that would achieve the political results the referendum requires without needing to go through all the business of specific economic entanglements.

But she doesn't believe in leaving the European Union. She stated way back when that "Brexit means Brexit," a nothing phrase using a nothing term that will, as it turns out, deliver nothing - because Brexit clearly doesn't mean leaving the European Union.

In any case, conservatives who have long cared about the European Union (like myself, which is what the topic was about) care more about the destruction of political sovereignty than they do about free trade. The freedom for a nation's parliament to be the body that decides the law of the land is fundamental to our entire political and legal system, and that is why it is so important that Britain actually cuts the political ties that the EU is trying desperately to keep it attached to - and which May and her fellow remainers have little inclination to get rid of.

And what the **** is a Blairite Liberal? A centrist?

Centrism? There's no such thing.
 

Bomberboyokay

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So you hate pooled sovereignty. That's a reason to strengthen EU governance and the European Parliament's powers (democracy), not quit belligerently with no better plan for what comes next. The Strait of Dover is 20 miles wide not 2000.
 
So you hate pooled sovereignty. That's a reason to strengthen EU governance and the European Parliament's powers (democracy), not quit belligerently with no better plan for what comes next. The Strait of Dover is 20 miles wide not 2000.

The EU Parliament does not deserve the name. It is a rubber stamp to the Commission, who actually create the legislation.

Continental Europe has long had a different relationship between people and state than Britain and the Anglosphere. If they want to hash out what that relationship should look like, then they can try. But to involve Britain - the home of so many political/legal principles that we cherish, by nature of the belief that it is the government that is beholden to the people, not the other way around - in that hashing out is pointless. They are a different system that is on the verge of being swallowed whole by the EU's 'pooled sovereignty', as it goes about its new form of imperialism.
 

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Other Brexiteer Putin fanboys like Corbyn and George Galloway must be thrilled with their achievements too.

Trump-Putin-Brexit Nexus Comes Together On Trump UK Visit


Russian President Vladimir Putin two years ago helped put candidate Donald Trump into the White House. He also helped persuade Britons to leave the European Union.

Later this week, he can watch his two election victories of 2016 come together, as Trump makes his first official visit to U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May, who is now facing the nightmare of implementing Brexit — also supported by Trump ― which threatens to wreck her nation’s economy.

“It makes things very complicated for Theresa May, to be frank. It does not help her at all,” said Monica de Bolle, with the Peterson Institute for International Economics, of Trump’s visit. “It certainly puts the prime minister in an extremely awkward position.”

As it happens, Trump will head off directly from Britain for a summit with Putin in Helsinki, a meeting that Trump has clamored for since his election but his advisers had, until now, thwarted.

Trump will arrive in the United Kingdom on Thursday after two days of a NATO summit in Brussels, where other leaders of the military alliance fear he could throw a wrench into what’s normally a mundane gathering — much the same way he blew up the G-7 economic summit last month. He refused to sign onto a joint statement about free trade after getting into disputes with the other leaders on the topic.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-brexit-putin_us_5b3fd63be4b07b827cc07128
 

Bomberboyokay

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Continental Europe has long had a different relationship between people and state than Britain and the Anglosphere. If they want to hash out what that relationship should look like, then they can try. But to involve Britain - the home of so many political/legal principles that we cherish, by nature of the belief that it is the government that is beholden to the people, not the other way around - in that hashing out is pointless. They are a different system that is on the verge of being swallowed whole by the EU's 'pooled sovereignty', as it goes about its new form of imperialism.

You should cut out this "Britain is special and the rest of Europe is homogeneous" bullshit. It also makes your imperialism line at the end more unintentionally funny.
 
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Get your head around this: the relevance of the migrant crisis is not in the freedom of refugees to be able to immediately move to the United Kingdom. I never said this, and you are so obsessed with claiming that I did that you are going into a fit of rage over it - which does nothing to help your argument.
.

LOL refugees coming to Europe right now have little relevance to what we are discussing atleast for the next 10 years. So you are talking about 2025? holy crap, i have seen some forward thinking person but you sir, take the cake. How do you know what the world will be like in 2025?

Things than you require for german citizenship:

  • a valid Aufenthaltserlaubnis or Aufenthaltsberechtigung residency permit
  • legally resident in Germany for at least 8 years
  • a livelihood-guarantee of you and your dependants without recourse to social welfare or unemployment benefits (exceptions are made for people under of 23 years)
  • adequate knowledge of the German language
  • an oath on the German constitution
  • you have to give up your former citizenship (although there are exceptions to this)
Sounds good to me, are you scared like most conservatives here than someone will come and take your job?

Any asylum seeker who able to support his family in countries like sweden and germany are much more unlikely to come to the UK can the ones in eastern europe. They are bigger threats but most asylum seekers are in germany ,sweden, netherlands. The chances of them coming to UK is remote, as they are already fluent in their native language and will have a job, why the * would they want to go to UK when they are settled there? do you have any stat to prove that this is not the case?

They are under temporary protection and most of them wont even become german citizens but will remain under protection. Almost half of the syrians are only given subsidiary protection anyway, who dont really qualify for citizenship! so your fear that they will become citizens and invade UK is absurd.

Even if they are unemployed why the * would they go to UK? All of netherlands germany and sweden pay much more in unemployment benefits than UK while granting them full housing and healthcare. Refugees settled in these countries are highly unlikely to go to the UK. Are you worried about the 5,000 hungary and poland have given refugee status to then???

Try to stick to the topic, if you are going to debate refugee "invasion" now, not what will happen in 10 years.

As bomberboy said stop parroting the conversatives that "UK is special" argument, not everyone wants to go to the UK.

Half of the migrants from EU come to UK with a definitive job, compared to 22% for Non-EU and a quarter of Non eu migrants come to "join" someone, they are much more of a burden to the government than EU ones.
 
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LOL refugees coming to Europe right now have little relevance to what we are discussing atleast for the next 10 years. So you are talking about 2025? holy crap, i have seen some forward thinking person but you sir, take the cake. How do you know what the world will be like in 2025?

Things than you require for german citizenship:

  • a valid Aufenthaltserlaubnis or Aufenthaltsberechtigung residency permit
  • legally resident in Germany for at least 8 years
  • a livelihood-guarantee of you and your dependants without recourse to social welfare or unemployment benefits (exceptions are made for people under of 23 years)
  • adequate knowledge of the German language
  • an oath on the German constitution
  • you have to give up your former citizenship (although there are exceptions to this)
Sounds good to me, are you scared like most conservatives here than someone will come and take your job?

Any asylum seeker who able to support his family in countries like sweden and germany are much more unlikely to come to the UK can the ones in eastern europe. They are bigger threats but most asylum seekers are in germany ,sweden, netherlands. The chances of them coming to UK is remote, as they are already fluent in their native language and will have a job, why the **** would they want to go to UK when they are settled there? do you have any stat to prove that this is not the case?

They are under temporary protection and most of them wont even become german citizens but will remain under protection. Almost half of the syrians are only given subsidiary protection anyway, who dont really qualify for citizenship! so your fear that they will become citizens and invade UK is absurd.

Even if they are unemployed why the **** would they go to UK? All of netherlands germany and sweden pay much more in unemployment benefits than UK while granting them full housing and healthcare. Refugees settled in these countries are highly unlikely to go to the UK. Are you worried about the 5,000 hungary and poland have given refugee status to then???

Try to stick to the topic, if you are going to debate refugee "invasion" now, not what will happen in 10 years.

As bomberboy said stop parroting the conversatives that "UK is special" argument, not everyone wants to go to the UK.

Half of the migrants from EU come to UK with a definitive job, compared to 22% for Non-EU and a quarter of Non eu migrants come to "join" someone, they are much more of a burden to the government than EU ones.
I think that his point is that the images shown of refugees played to the "lowest common denominator logic" of dem refugees gonna get EU citizenship and then they are coming to the UK. I doubt that the LCD voter has the depth of understanding that you are providing. Leave campaign pitched itself at the right level to get the vote by exploiting public ignorance
 

medusala

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You should cut out this "Britain is special and the rest of Europe is homogeneous" bullshit. It also makes your imperialism line at the end more unintentionally funny.

Well it is. That is fact. Its not part of Schengen, doesnt have the EURO, has the commonwealth, the worlds largest financial market for many products etc.

As bomberboy said stop parroting the conversatives that "UK is special" argument, not everyone wants to go to the UK.

lol, reminds me of the lies told by Blair and co.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/reports/HomeOffice25_03.pdf

The forecasts indicate that net immigration from the AC-10 to the UK after the current
enlargement of the EU will be relatively small, at between 5,000 and 13,000 immigrants per year
up to 2010

#
Any asylum seeker who able to support his family in countries like sweden and germany are much more unlikely to come to the UK can the ones in eastern europe. They are bigger threats but most asylum seekers are in germany ,sweden, netherlands. The chances of them coming to UK is remote, as they are already fluent in their native language and will have a job, why the **** would they want to go to UK when they are settled there? do you have any stat to prove that this is not the case?

FFS.
 
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enlargement of the EU will be relatively small, at between 5,000 and 13,000 immigrants per year
up to 2010

#

FFS.

Forecasts! i thought you were not a big believer in forecasts lol or is it just the ones you post are valid?

anyway this is by no means related to what i was saying , i was talking about the refugees who already acquired german citizenship.
 

medusala

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You've been misrepresenting what the Commonwealth of Nations is for years. Please stop.

Empire

Its not hard to join the dots. No great surprise you cant.

Forecasts! i thought you were not a big believer in forecasts lol or is it just the ones you post are valid?
.

No I'm not. Those forecasts were a joke. Just as project fear was. Just as bs customs cost is.

Presenting forecasts as facts is an admission remainers dont have a decent argument.
 

medusala

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Dumb and racist.

I will make this as simple as possible so even you can understand.

Freedom of movement = racial preference for white people of Eastern Europe over coloured people

Yet you support this.

So who is the racist? Yep its you. Shame on you.

Dumb and racist.

Cant make an argument resort to drivel. Again and again and again. Did you drop out of an arts degree because its taxed your mind so much?
 
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No I'm not. Those forecasts were a joke. Just as project fear was. Just as bs customs cost is.

Presenting forecasts as facts is an admission remainers dont have a decent argument.

Huh? what are you on about? who ever said that forecoasts are facts? forecasts are forecasts. Yet when you post forecasts it seems its a fact...please read up on the convo above, what you posted got nothing to do with what i was discussing with the speaker.

Customs costs were forecasts, the math was given to you, why dont you explain why you dispute it and whats your estimated customs cost....oh wait, according to you customs is ready LOL!!!

There is not a single brexshiter argument here that hasnt been squished.
 

medusala

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Huh? what are you on about? who ever said that forecoasts are facts? forecasts are forecasts. Yet when you post forecasts it seems its a fact...please read up on the convo above, what you posted got nothing to do with what i was discussing with the speaker.

Customs costs were forecasts, the math was given to you, why dont you explain why you dispute it and whats your estimated customs cost....oh wait, according to you customs is ready LOL!!!

a) they were Blair forecasts and obvious lies. I didnt present them as facts.
b) that would be a cost of 20% of goods exported. Its pathetic, noone believes it (and German exporters would hardly put up with it either)

.
There is not a single brexshiter argument here that hasnt been squished.

lol

£350m true
project fear a pathetic lie - true
other countries wanting to do FTAs - true
EU accounting for large % of UK law - true
EU freedom of movement akin to white Australia policy - true

Forecasts, you dont have facts, you just have BS forecasts and pound shop balatrons like bombersboy parroting whatever piffle the FT prints.
 
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£350m true
False - gross and net, you get 9 billion back from the EU. Despite majority of the economists disagreeing with you, you still keep persisting with the figures laid down by Lord Farage, well good on ya. Even if i discount the money EU spends in the UK, the money UK gets back as a rebate and free to spend on anything it wants Still not 350, way lower actually. But you can still play the gross/net card and expect people to buy the argument, but no one half educated is going to buy the propaganda.
project fear a pathetic lie - true

What project fear? there is the irish border issue, then there are tariff and non-tariff barriers. On top of that, you have already lost more than what you pay to the EU. FACT!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...lready-exceeds-eu-budget-payments-study-shows
other countries wanting to do FTAs - true
LOL! like Trump? trump is putting 20 billion tariffs on Canada, but i am sure he will keep his promise on UK FTA? yes? in an era of trade wars, i am sure lots of FTA's are being prepared for UK. Really , keep up with the world mate.
EU accounting for large % of UK law - true

Despite being proven wrong you just dont give up. UK is in a single market, so of course the single market rules and regulations apply to the UK just like it does for everyone else in the bloc, most of it are harmless and UK courts have passed the laws and there are many regulations that can be overidden, but UK chooses to keep it. I posted the fullfact article in another thead.
EU freedom of movement akin to white Australia policy - true

You will have absolutely no problems if rich western europeans would be coming to the UK. Just not muslims and those poles hey? we have gone through this many times, there are jobs that no brits want to do, they are more than just seasonal workers.

For NHS its the same, here is an analysis by University of Birmingham.

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/perspective/nhs-and-brexit.aspx

Here is a more detailed analysis

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-impact-of-brexit-on-nhs-staff/

Here is on construction:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rtage-recruitment-training-citb-a8435246.html

Almost half the employers in the sector are concerned that recruitment is going to become more difficult over the next two years, while 4 per cent expect hiring to become easier.


So why don't you tell all these employers that they should listen to genius' like Garage and Johnson.


If the above is your best effort, they you really got nothing, as expected
 
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b) that would be a cost of 20% of goods exported. Its pathetic, noone believes it (and German exporters would hardly put up with it either)

Data for the EU budget is freely available here: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/interactive/index_en.cfm.

In 2016, the UK’s gross contribution was 0.55% GNI (the EU28 average was 0.82%), plus approximately 0.3% of the VAT base, plus the customs duties and sugar levies on third-country imports collected on the EU’s behalf. It’s about 1% of the UK’s GDP in total.

Bargain or rip-off?

The UK is a net contributor to the EU. From 2013-2016, the average UK contribution was €159 (0.38% GNI) per person per year: less than the cost of a TV licence.

That’s the direct net cost of EU membership, but this is only half the picture:
The UK pays more into the EU budget than it receives from it. However, the net balance does not accurately reflect the many benefits of EU membership. Many of them, such as peace, political stability, security and freedom to live, work, study and travel anywhere in the Union cannot be measured. The UK government estimates that the single market brings in between GBP 31 billion and GBP 92 billion a year into the UK economy – or between 5 and 15 times the UK net contribution to the EU budget, which, once the UK’s rebate is taken into account, amounted to about GBP 7.258 billion - EUR 8.641 billion in 2013.


http://ec.europa.eu/budget/mycountry/UK/index_en.cfm

Now waiting for you to say these figures are forged, go full tin foil hat like Procrastinor35! I quoted the official EU website, if you are going to claim this is a lie, then i will take a leave from debating you further.

If someone asked you to lend them a tenner and they paid you back between £50 and £150, would you say no? That’s EU membership.

Conversely, if you would prefer to keep the tenner, even though it’s costing you at least £50, which you need to pay your bills: that’s Brexit.

The UK government has not provided any cost-benefit data for leaving the EU. Thus, the populace cannot make an informed decision as to whether Brexit is indeed an opportunity.

The hypodermic model of communication is most effective when it complements the uses & gratifications model, fulfilling the psychosocial needs of the audience. As Goebbels said:

Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their own free will. This is what has happened with the migration and 350m figure. Those brown bastards are coming, go to Bradford, Birmingham and find out yourself etc.

Thus, one must attempt to disregard one’s own biases.
The cost is €159 but the benefit is €795-2385 per person per year, plus the four freedoms, Euratom, EMA, Gallileo etc.

Is it worth it? absolutely not, there is no justification behind it. Just more lies and propaganda from the likes of Farage who are surviving on the handouts from very institution they claim to despise.
 
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More fear mongering guys! what would we know, ask Garage:

Britain’s financial-services industry is suffering a drop in foreign investment while some of its European counterparts enjoy big gains, according to a new study that shows the starkest indication yet of Brexit’s impact on the sector.

Investment from abroad in Britain’s financial-services firms fell 26 percent last year, EY said in a report released Monday. During the same period, Germany experienced a 64 percent increase, while the figure for France more than doubled. London still attracted more inward investment in financial services than any other EU city, but the gap with Paris, Frankfurt and Dublin is narrowing, EY said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...sky-to-keep-eu-rules-on-services-after-brexit

The U.K. financial sector attracted 78 FDI projects last year. That’s the highest number in Europe, but down from a record 106 in 2016, EY said in the report. Germany’s total increased to 64 projects in 2017 from 39 the previous year, while France registered 49 new projects, up from 22 in 2016. Luxembourg saw 17 projects, surging from just 2.

As they say UK's loss is others gain :D :D

More fear mongering!

and..

About 45 percent of the investors surveyed by EY said the potential loss of access to EU markets is one of their biggest concerns, while 33 percent cited lower levels of U.K. economic growth. Some 26 percent said diverging regulation was their chief issue. Despite these concerns, two-thirds of respondents haven’t changed their investment plans since the U.K. voted to leave the EU two years ago, and three-quarters have no plans to relocate staff.
So that's the Financial serves and the auto industry along side retail where investments have declined significantly. Are you counting the costs meds??? or am i fear mongering with forecasts again :D There is no doomsday scenario but goodness sake mate, you are on the losing side of the argument in this. UK stand to lose more than it gains period. You havent been able to provide any evidence or math which states otherwise.

But there is no concern about potential loss to single market! none if you read a brexshiter argument.
 
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