Play Nice Hannah Mouncey, transgender AFLW hopeful

[Gigantor]

I thought testosterone levels were the primary if not sole measure for who can compete in women’s sort. I believe the Olympic rule used to be <10 nmol/L but has been reduced to <5 nmol/L.

The AFL's policy goes beyond testosterone levels, it looks at a range of physical measurements and compares that to the norm within the competition.

 

[Punt rd end]

I don't like testosterone levels being the only measure of whether men can play women's sport, it opens the door for men with low testosterone to compete against women. There has to be other criteria as well.

 

[red+black]

Apparently male levels are 7 to 30.

 

[kirsti]

Apparently male levels are 7 to 30.

The US University of Rochester’s online medical library states that the normal ‘male’ range for testosterone is between 9.7nmol/l and 38.1nmol/l; and between 0.5nmol/l and 2.4nmol/l for ‘females’. The US government’s National Library of Medicine agrees with the University of Rochester’s ranges with regards to ‘women’, but puts normal ‘male’ levels at between 10.4 nmol/l and 34.7nmol/l. So individuals with XY chromosomes need a higher level of testosterone those with XX chromosomes to maintain basic health, due to their androgen receptor response.

As these analyses show, these levels can vary with age, but also due to occupation. A 2014 study, ‘Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.

The report concluded: ‘The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable’. In other words, elite athletes have testosterone levels that differ widely from those that might be considered ‘normal’ in the general public population.
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/ency...ontentTypeID=167&ContentID=testosterone_total

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003707.htm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24593684/

 

[red+black]

Would lean muscle mass be suitable as an additional measure? Hannah says that a few years ago she was 130kg of solid muscle but these days is a "fatty" (her words). What was her BF% 5 years ago and what is it now?

 

[Gralin]

Would lean muscle mass be suitable as an additional measure? Hannah says that a few years ago she was 130kg of solid muscle but these days is a "fatty" (her words). What was her BF% 5 years ago and what is it now?

I get why it's hard to say.
A line has to be drawn somewhere and there will always be contention about whether the line is drawn.
There will always be the argument about how much of someone's physiology is based on hormones.
The reality for me is that life isn't a level playing field. there are no easy answers, but anyone who thinks that someone is taking the easy way out by by being trans, well.... I don't think that person is thinking critically.
It is a really tough and massive decision for someone to go through this process. It is not a short cut and it should be respected

 

[Punt rd end]

Just to add to this the 3rd placed rider, Jennifer Wagner, who came out in response and said it wasn't fair "Rachel" was competing against biological females has issued an apology. Click Tweet to read whole thread.


Which was rejected by "Rachel", below are a couple of Tweets on the issue, but there are around 4 others based around claiming harrassment from Jennifer Wagner. (Scroll down to October 18th to see the rest)


In response to a lot of Jennifer's Tweets people claimed she had nothing to apologise for and that she shouldn't give up, to which she stated she'll be fighting this behind the scenes

It's interesting to note that when women are asked their opinion on the matter and it is against competing against trans women they are called transphobic. The rules need to change for the sake of the integrity of women's sport.

 

[owen87]

It's interesting to note that when women are asked their opinion on the matter and it is against competing against trans women they are called transphobic. The rules need to change for the sake of the integrity of women's sport.

Easy way to shut down any opposition or discussion on the topic.

Participation in elite sport is not a right, people keep trying to twist the logic to make it seem like being in an elite category is a human right, as though it's not specifically discriminatory in nature that 99.99% of the population isn't able to compete.

 

[kirsti]

Easy way to shut down any opposition or discussion on the topic.

Participation in elite sport is not a right, people keep trying to twist the logic to make it seem like being in an elite category is a human right, as though it's not specifically discriminatory in nature that 99.99% of the population isn't able to compete.

 

[owen87]

View attachment 577819

Two things;

1. It's a charter, an idea.
2. That says nothing about elite sport.

If your premise is that all people should have the opportunity to participate in sport as an activity, then I can agree with you. It's specifically the argument that participation at the elite level should be a right that I take issue with.

99.99% of humanity doesn't get to participate at the elite level of their chosen sport, it's already discriminatory by it's very nature.

 

[Punt rd end]

View attachment 577819

This is the part we are concerned about

 

[BringBackTorps]

A solution?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ht-of-Irans-womens-football-team-are-men.html

 

[Punt rd end]

A solution?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ht-of-Irans-womens-football-team-are-men.html

The future of women's sport

 

[kirsti]

A solution?
The Iran Womens Teams is currently ranked 58th on the Fifa rankings.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ht-of-Irans-womens-football-team-are-men.html[/URL]
https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/women/index,page=2.htmx

 

[Starburns_]

The reality for me is that life isn't a level playing field. there are no easy answers, but anyone who thinks that someone is taking the easy way out by by being trans, well.... I don't think that person is thinking critically.
It is a really tough and massive decision for someone to go through this process. It is not a short cut and it should be respected

It's not really about that though. Someone transitioning in general is no one's business but their own, within elite sport that is not the case, it has the potential to impact other competitors. Surely consideration of the individual should be secondary to the collective if there is even the hint of a competitive advantage (which there is).

If we're not concerned about a potential competitive advantage, then why do we outlaw drugs in sport, or even bother to differentiate based on gender in the first place?

View attachment 577819

None of that is relevant to Mouncey as she is still allowed to practice the sport of Australian Rules Football at any level bar the elite one.

 

[Cleric]

Looks like it didnt take too much time for Hannah to move on.

Its only a matter of time before this all comes to an end.

 

[MacMum]

What a farce......so, so wrong.

 

[Gigantor]

The handball looks like a tennis ball in her hands.

250 pounds = 113 kilos. Some of those women she's playing against would be half her weight.

 

[Sprout]

View attachment 593335
Looks like it didnt take too much time for Hannah to move on.

Its only a matter of time before this all comes to an end.

That’s actually farcical. Blatantly unfair to the other competitors.

 

[Punt rd end]

View attachment 593335
Looks like it didnt take too much time for Hannah to move on.

Its only a matter of time before this all comes to an end.

Hanna doesn't give a s**t about anybody but hannah

 

[quotemokc]

I am surprised the Asian countries would tolerate such a thing

 

[jatz14]

I am surprised the Asian countries would tolerate such a thing

What makes you think they get a say?


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[kirsti]

https://sports.yahoo.com/transgende...on-historic-professional-debut-034149196.html

 

[kirsti]

https://sports.yahoo.com/transgende...on-historic-professional-debut-034149196.html

 

[quotemokc]

What makes you think they get a say?


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Because its the Asian countries organising it?