Vic Predict the outcome of the 2018 Victorian State Election

[GreatBradScott]

https://theconversation.com/safe-schools-review-findings-experts-respond-56425

The review of the official Safe Schools resource also found that exercises designed to help students think about how to be an ally to peers with diverse sexual orientations or gender identities “might be more difficult for students from a family with conservative social or religious views on same-sex attraction”.

Wrong.

 

[aCunningPlan]

The point will continue to be made though - we have one party in Victoria who said they'd build and upgrade infrastructure and have gotten it done, and a party that continues to talk about it without getting any record of backing it up with action.

That's not true, the Liberals finished off the Regional Rail Link...and forced VLine into a shut down for six months while VLocity wheels had to be replaced due to the shoddy North Melbourne flyover they approved to cut costs.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Maybe you shouldn't over excavate haha. We just fill any over excavation during cut with extra shotcrete. But we are only out by a few hundred mm at worst. Don't know where you can be over excavating the few metres min to need an RSS wall. And if it's only due to over excavation then not sure how it's the solution to cheap trenches.

I've worked on about half the level crossing removals in some capacity so far. So you probably already have. Never used RSS for a cut yet. Used plenty of times on overs for the embankment before the bridge.

Unless you are piling coode Island silt where are you getting 29m piles for elevated rail in Melbourne? If you need piles that deep. The soil is rubbish. May not even suit cheap soil nails and need piles every few m instead which isn't cheap.

Given the new precast u trough shape costs of elevated rail have increased but for equivalent length cut or elevated you would need everything to go right in terms of favourable site conditions to get level dollars.

Some sites dramatically favour one option due to the surrounding terrain so there may be some of those in Pakenham like Buckley St was. Again I'm not aware of the site so unless you have more information I doubt you can make the call either given a lot would need to go your way.

The first few track lowers were much cheaper but the market has moved due to the masses of construction work at the moment. Politicians should have spaced these out more but it's in boom now and labour is way more expensive. Also the newer projects are taking the option to undertake urban renewal in addition to crossing removals further inflating the prices.

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Not that simple, sometimes the in-situ material is nominated by designers to be replaced with structural fill. Sometimes you can remove the fill, treat it and put it back in. Sometimes they won't accept that either you need to bring the fill in from elsewhere. Either way, not uncommon for RSS walls to be a part of a cut, especially around abutments of overpass structures. Sometimes it's the cheaper option if the alternative retaining wall needs an enormous foundation.

The last time I did work in the outer south east, we did have piles go down well over 20m. Material is extremely sloppy out there and we didn't hit bedrock.

At the end of the day, you can cut and dispose of material on a bulk earthworks job for $10/m3 if you're dumping reasonably close, and that figure's pretty conservative too. There's thousands of subdivisions in Pakenham which would take the material, even s**t material, as general fill so you aren't incurring insane costs for disposal like some of the inner city cuts would have. The most expensive part of the cut would probably still be the precast items for the overpasses, which an elevated rail job would have far more. If you're smart about building it in stages, even the pumping to drawdown the water table wouldn't be that excessive. Still think it's cheaper than putting up a hundred thousand tonnes of precast.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Geelong station to Southern Cross is 81.4km

10 stops in between, thats 10 mins you need just for stopping and restarting 10 times

of 81.4km in 22 minutes, or travelling at over 222km on average (you need more given the need to accelerate and decelerate

Lib plan is for trains that have a top speed of 200kph

only way the libs timeframe happens is if stations are bypassed

Which they should be. If we're able to increase the number of peak-hour services on regional services, half of those new services should be express between regional centres and Melbourne and the rest shouldn't go past the outer fringe of the metro area.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

The point will continue to be made though - we have one party in Victoria who said they'd build and upgrade infrastructure and have gotten it done, and a party that continues to talk about it without getting any record of backing it up with action.

We have one party who's been building and upgrading infrastructure after a series of huge privatisation windfalls, in a time of record low interest rates and coupled with a nation-wide economic slowdown. In the previous climate, neither party managed to get anything done. Fair play to Andrews, but let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge that Andrews didn't wake up and decide to have a construction boom in the state. Ballieu nor Brumby nor Napthine had any chance of accomplishing things on these levels during their tenure. The boom will continue regardless of whose elected this year and it will finish regardless of who is in power in the future.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Which they should be. If we're able to increase the number of peak-hour services on regional services, half of those new services should be express between regional centres and Melbourne and the rest shouldn't go past the outer fringe of the metro area.

good luck selling that to the likes of tarniet

thats the key though, if. what cost does it come to ensuring that service capability?

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

good luck selling that to the likes of tarniet

thats the key though, if. what cost does it come to ensuring that service capability?

If it was up to me, I'd split the six car Vlocity sets back into three, run the first three to Geelong non-stop and run the other three behind to every station as far as Wyndham Vale. The same level of service is maintained for everybody, except people going to Tarneit don't have to share a train with people going to Geelong and people going to Geelong don't need to keep stopping at Tarneit.

You could also have dedicated three car Vlocity sets for going to Wyndham Vale or Melton and pull some of the seats out so more people can stand.

I don't know why they don't do this more already. I'm sure there's a reason but beats me what it is.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If it was up to me, I'd split the six car Vlocity sets back into three, run the first three to Geelong non-stop and run the other three behind to every station as far as Wyndham Vale. The same level of service is maintained for everybody, except people going to Tarneit don't have to share a train with people going to Geelong and people going to Geelong don't need to keep stopping at Tarneit.

You could also have dedicated three car Vlocity sets for going to Wyndham Vale or Melton and pull some of the seats out so more people can stand.

I don't know why they don't do this more already. I'm sure there's a reason but beats me what it is.

im se suburbs, so idiot question - do they have three tracks to allow a geelong express to overtake the stops all stations?

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

im se suburbs, so idiot question - do they have three tracks to allow a geelong express to overtake the stops all stations?

Not sure, I thought RRL was dual track only.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Not sure, I thought RRL was dual track only.

that gets back to cost then - to make your idea work you need that third line to bypass the stops all stations

This is where these ideas do need to have some kind of cost rationale. if (and this is BS example purely for math sake), its costs $100m to save 5 minutes of travel time for most trips, is that worth it?

Issue i have with geelong is the mass will continue to push out past werribee, so stops are needed. We dont need another Point Cook where the logistics is an afterthought.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

that gets back to cost then - to make your idea work you need that third line to bypass the stops all stations

This is where these ideas do need to have some kind of cost rationale. if (and this is BS example purely for math sake), its costs $100m to save 5 minutes of travel time for most trips, is that worth it?

Issue i have with geelong is the mass will continue to push out past werribee, so stops are needed. We dont need another Point Cook where the logistics is an afterthought.

You only need two tracks to get two trains past one another. I'm sure if a third track was absolutely needed then it would only needed to be added in a one or a few short lengths around stations. The Cragieburn line handles a lot of V/Line traffic heading to Shep and Albury and the only part with a third track is at Essendon station.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

You only need two tracks to get two trains past one another. I'm sure if a third track was absolutely needed then it would only needed to be added in a one or a few short lengths around stations. The Cragieburn line handles a lot of V/Line traffic heading to Shep and Albury and the only part with a third track is at Essendon station.

doesnt it need to have the new signalling in place to do that, and not sure if thats being rolled out on the vline network

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

doesnt it need to have the new signalling in place to do that, and not sure if thats being rolled out on the vline network

If it saves time and encourages less people to drive from Geelong to Melbourne every day, or maybe even more people to move out to Geelong, it's probably worth it.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Whilst we're blowing mountains of cash How about 3rd rails to Frankston and Dandenong and run some high speed full express services and cut the commute from the city to Dandenong to 15 mins and Frankston to 20 mins.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

If it saves time and encourages less people to drive from Geelong to Melbourne every day, or maybe even more people to move out to Geelong, it's probably worth it.

saving 10 minutes on the train wont do that. as we have seen in sydney, it takes property prices getting to insane levels to push people to leave the comfort of the familiar and everything a major city offers.

 

[aCunningPlan]

saving 10 minutes on the train wont do that. as we have seen in sydney, it takes property prices getting to insane levels to push people to leave the comfort of the familiar and everything a major city offers.

I have just had my home loan approved today, off the plan new build, three bedrooms, two bathrooms, double garage...$268,000

I honestly cannot comprehend moving away from this wonderful town, good jobs, good schools, no traffic, cheap houses, sense of community, only an hour from the CBD, beaches and Grampians, plenty of shopping and lovely wide streets everywhere.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I have just had my home loan approved today, off the plan new build, three bedrooms, two bathrooms, double garage...$268,000

I honestly cannot comprehend moving away from this wonderful town, good jobs, good schools, no traffic, cheap houses, sense of community, only an hour from the CBD, beaches and Grampians, plenty of shopping and lovely wide streets everywhere.

thats sort of my point - even with that discount, most still want to live in Melbourne.

that needs to change, but we havent reached the pain point yet

 

[Frank Bunn]

Great discussion! thanks!

I highlighted where Labor planning Minister Richard Wynne changed the rules in favour of developers, resulting in 54,000 sqm of commercial floor area being awarded to applicants but with ZERO community benefits such as libraries, aquatic centres, art galleries, performance spaces, meeting rooms, kindergartens, social housing, open space etc. Anything to say about this?

 

[Frank Bunn]

North Geelong
North Shore
Corio
Lara
Little River
Wyndham Vale
Tarneit
Deer Park
Sunshine
Footscray

Many of the Geelong line services don't stop at North Shore, Corio, Little River, Deer Park. Some of them stop at either Wyndham Vale or Tarneit. Most trains stop at Sunshine but that could be cut out as hardly anyone gets on or off, and it's serviced by Metro. So at peak hour it's more like 5 stops than 10.

But using faster trains won't improve the travel time by much because of the bottle necks between Tarneit and Southern Cross. Lara to Tarneit is about 30 km and takes about 16 minutes. Tarneit to Southern Cross is about the same distance but takes over half an hour because the trains run at snail's pace.

Then there's the overcrowding.

Electrified and quadruplicated between both Melton and Wyndham Vale to Sunshine is what is required for fast, reliable and frequent services to Geelong and Ballarat. This is what Labor is promising and the Liberal are not, and it will take a lot longer than 4 years to build.

The Geelong line needs to be separated from the Wyndham Vale/Tarneit line. There's very little interchange of passengers between the two. The Geelong line should remain on Vline and have separate tracks all the way into Southern Cross so that the Geelong to Melbourne time might be reduced by 15 minutes using existing rolling stock. Wyndham Vale, Tarneit, Deer Park, Ardeer, Sunshine plus a couple of extra stations should become an electrified Metro line.

 

[Maggie5]

I highlighted where Labor planning Minister Richard Wynne changed the rules in favour of developers, resulting in 54,000 sqm of commercial floor area being awarded to applicants but with ZERO community benefits such as libraries, aquatic centres, art galleries, performance spaces, meeting rooms, kindergartens, social housing, open space etc. Anything to say about this?

Nope!

 

[Frank Bunn]

Nope!

Great discussion! thanks!

 

[Maggie5]

Great discussion! thanks!

A pleasure and if you notice all done on my side without put downs or getting personal.

 

[aCunningPlan]

If there is any dirty laundry that needs airing before polling day today I should the day with tomorrow's papers saturated by the cup.

 

[Elroo]

I have just had my home loan approved today, off the plan new build, three bedrooms, two bathrooms, double garage...$268,000

I honestly cannot comprehend moving away from this wonderful town, good jobs, good schools, no traffic, cheap houses, sense of community, only an hour from the CBD, beaches and Grampians, plenty of shopping and lovely wide streets everywhere.

Yep I did a sea change from inner Bayside Melbourne down to the Surfcoast. With what I walked away with from selling, I bought a 4 Bed, 2 bathroom, 1100sqm on a golf course, my backyard opens onto the 2nd fairway and I can never get built out. 500 metres to the beach, debt free and a 1 hour 10 minute ride to the CBD.

 

[Elroo]

take that any day over the moronic proposed property rental law.

#justasmallreno
#puppet

Wow, a supporter of a proposed LNP policy to spend taxpayers money to teach children that the earth is a few throusand years old, life started from 1 woman & 3 men (2 being her own son's), a talking snake, and that some imaginary deity planted fossils of dinosaurs and penguins and all sorts of animals walked across the globe and back due to a global flood!!!


#clueless