Politics Pros and Cons of modern western civilisation

Do the pros of western civilisation outweigh the cons?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 90.3%
  • No

    Votes: 3 9.7%

  • Total voters
    31

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Jul 30, 2018
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http://www.spiegel.de/international...n-churchill-stopped-the-nazis-a-712259-9.html

You need to understand, WW2 wasnt just won by liberal capitalist nations.

The Communists were also involved in defeating Fascism along with the Liberal west, and indeed the Soviets made the biggest contribution. The Postdam agreement was one where we (the liberals) agreed to allow the Soviets all of Eastern Europe, and they let the Western Liberal powers have Western Europe.

Part of that deal was the expulsion of Germans from the East. Yes Churchill agreed to it, and he probably even supported it (if he didnt support the way it was carried out) but it's harsh to say it was solely his doing, and not as part of the agreement re Europe with the Russians and Stalin.

If I were to read into Churchill, I would say the man probably thought that moving the Germans into Germany was the lesser of two evils, rather than leave them under the yoke of Stalin and Communism.

Also, better to have the Germans on our side of the Berlin wall, than on the side of the Communists.



By Liberal I mean the States, not the leaders.

Both the UK and the USA were at all material times during WW2 Liberal nation States. The USA remains a liberal republic today, notwithstanding it's currently led by a populist right wing President (Trump), just like the UK remained a Liberal State when it was led by a populist Right wing leader (Churchill).

While they might have bent over to the Soviets (appeasement mainly, and to stave off Wold War 3 starting almost immediately) and implemented some individual policies that could be considered (sans context) harsh, the UK and USA were (and still are) Liberal democracies.

Britain in WW2 was not a Fascist State, and neither was the USA. They were Liberal democracies, and trying to sell them as anything else undermines your argument.
You seem confused as to whether you think Churchill was an imperialist bigot or to be charitable to him and believe he was going against his liberal instincts.

Furthermore, it’s highly unlikely Stalin cared more about the Eastern bloc being made up of ethnically pure countries for the very simple reason that he was ethnically Georgian ruling over ethnic Russians (and Kazakhs, and Balts, and Tatars, etc). The USSR was an empire that included dozens of ethnicities, in fact in its propaganda it prided itself on its anti-racism.

It is far more likely that the belief that ethnic purity was necessary for peace came from the UK and especially from the US, who up until the 60s was brutally white supremacist (the Nazis based many of their racial purity theories on American treatment of blacks and native Americans).

The US and UK might have been more liberal than the Nazis, but it wasn’t liberalism that won the war, and it wasn’t liberalism that made the peace. It’s ahistorical to claim so.
 

twotooto

late bloomer
Sep 26, 2015
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It's quite fascinating watching Mal and the Comrades do their thing. Take Mal, for instance ~ former One Nation zealot sees the light and denounces P. Pantsdown and the RWNJ crew every chance he gets, which is fair enough, but the thing is, he's still an unhinged zealot - he's just changed shirts.

In the words of the venerable Dennis, "you just get the feeling" that, despite all of the protestations re dem despicable RWNJ's and quasi Nazi incels, they'd love nothing more than for the tiniest of tiny flickering flames of incellery and RWNJobbery to flare and catch fire and in doing so, turn what amounts to a couple of nerds having a meme war on the internet, in to a full blown reva loo shon bayybeeee!

Seriously, "you just get the feeling" that lives would be complete at the chance to get physical and reprezentyo! The jodhpurs and the jackboots would be on quicker than you can say VivalaMarxism!

And that's all well and good, but doesn't that make you the very thing you despise?
 
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Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2015
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Pros: Safety, Security, Prosperity, Human Rights
Cons: Obesity, Low Birth Rates, Complacency, SJWs
Where do u get this stuff and why do u bother? You must hate poor people.You won't find a girlfriend/boyfriend by saying SJW all the time.Anyone who doesn't want social justice is a campaigner anyway.
 

Mister_X

Cancelled
Aug 19, 2018
121
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Where do u get this stuff and why do u bother? You must hate poor people.You won't find a girlfriend/boyfriend by saying SJW all the time.Anyone who doesn't want social justice is a campaigner anyway.

Correct, I do hate western poor people!

I say SJW all the time and have little trouble with the ladies. You should try it sometime ... loneliness will make you bitter.
 

Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2015
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Correct, I do hate western poor people!

I say SJW all the time and have little trouble with the ladies. You should try it sometime ... loneliness will make you bitter.
So you hate Western poor people,why is that?
 

Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2015
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With few medical exceptions the causes of being poor in the west are as follows:
1. Being Lazy
2. Being Stupid
3. Being Lazy & Stupid
Yeah but you're lazy and stupid, you got free advantages from your parents, so does that mean you're smart? What do you do for a job? Sitting on bigfooty all day with pro Trump trolling means you are lazy and very stupid.
 

Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2015
9,041
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With few medical exceptions the causes of being poor in the west are as follows:
1. Being Lazy
2. Being Stupid
3. Being Lazy & Stupid
What a horrible person you must be.You won't have any friends spouting your classist agenda here Mr up himself.
 

Brunswick Trap King

Lord Mayor of Melbourne
Jun 1, 2009
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You seem confused as to whether you think Churchill was an imperialist bigot or to be charitable to him and believe he was going against his liberal instincts.
Appears to be a case of cognitive dissonance being stuck between the fact he fought the Nazis and wasn't communist while knowing how he treated the Indians and others.
 

Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2015
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The Cons are obviously massive carbon emmissions, creation of the super rich and the class system, environmental destruction and species loss, rise of white supremacy, short term political agendas, racism egged on by newspapers and politicians, religious zealotry and mass proliferation of invasive corporate branding and advertising.
 

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Jul 5, 2011
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With few medical exceptions the causes of being poor in the west are as follows:
1. Being Lazy
2. Being Stupid
3. Being Lazy & Stupid
I'm poor because I lost half my assets twice, to 2 defacto relationships. Guess I come squarely under option 2. I thought I was being smart by not getting married... turns out you need a prenup just to live with a gf these days!
 

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Jul 30, 2018
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It does seem like a strange claim given how well the Germans did following WWI in the absence of liberalism.
In 1900 there were four empires in Central and Eastern Europe: the Russian Empire, the German (Prussian) Empire, the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Both world wars were kicked off by ethnic tensions in the territories covered by these empires.

By 1945 all but the Russian Empire had devolved into ethnicity-based nation states. The Russian Empire effectively became the USSR. The Jews even got their own homeland in former Ottoman territory a few years later.

On what planet was the solution to deep ethnic tensions in the eastern half of Europe “liberalism”?

It’s a myth.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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The Cons are obviously massive carbon emmissions, creation of the super rich and the class system, environmental destruction and species loss, rise of white supremacy, short term political agendas, racism egged on by newspapers and politicians, religious zealotry and mass proliferation of invasive corporate branding and advertising.

The class system is a bigger problem with other civilisations. The modern west has greatly reduced the class system by developing the welfare state. The west actually went too far the other way for a brief period in the creation of marxism.

The modern west has greatly reduced relgious zealotry and is now the least religious civilisation. It is one of the pros of the modern west compared to other civilisations.

The modern west is also the least racist of all civilisations. It is the civilisation that developed human rights and made racial discrimination a crime. Other civilisations didnt do that. It is a pro of the modern west not a con. Most civilisations in history dont even see racism as a bad thing.

All of the the above 3 could be much better but when we look at pros and cons it is a comparison to the other civilisations that have existed. Not a comparison to our version of utopia.

Agree on emissions and over the top corporatisation though.

Do you have any pros?
 
Sep 15, 2007
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Where i need to be
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I'm poor because I lost half my assets twice, to 2 defacto relationships. Guess I come squarely under option 2. I thought I was being smart by not getting married... turns out you need a prenup just to live with a gf these days!

Gees not many gfs are smart enough to know they can take all your stuff if you aint married but live with them for 2 years. Unlucky. Its why i kicked out my gfs before the 2 years were up. I only kept the one i knew i was going to marry.
 
Jul 5, 2011
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Why is low birth rates a con?
Economy depends on population growth. Looking at it purely economically, it'd be more efficient to supply this internally, rather than to always be integrating outsiders. This can obviously be seen as a racist notion, but there are already people of all backgrounds represented in the west who have assimilated. It is cheaper to have those already here make up the numbers, rather than investing in teaching English and other western norms to the newbies.
 
Sep 15, 2007
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Where i need to be
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Economy depends on population growth. Looking at it purely economically, it'd be more efficient to supply this internally, rather than to always be integrating outsiders. This can obviously be seen as a racist notion, but there are already people of all backgrounds represented in the west who have assimilated. It is cheaper to have those already here make up the numbers, rather than investing in teaching English and other western norms to the newbies.
Are you sure that is true. 20 years of being a dependent with 12 years of publically paid education is far far more expensive then some english lessons. There are also plenty of working age people who want to immigrate who already know english as well.

Also you dont need population growth. You just need to ensure the proportion of workers to dependents doesnt fall to low.
 

Mister_X

Cancelled
Aug 19, 2018
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What a horrible person you must be.You won't have any friends spouting your classist agenda here Mr up himself.

I've got all the friends I need.

Do you disagree with my premise (with few exceptions) that being poor in a western nation is caused by Laziness and/or Stupidity?
 

Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2015
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The class system is a bigger problem with other civilisations. The modern west has greatly reduced the class system by developing the welfare state. The west actually went too far the other way for a brief period in the creation of marxism.

The modern west has greatly reduced relgious zealotry and is now the least religious civilisation. It is one of the pros of the modern west compared to other civilisations.

The modern west is also the least racist of all civilisations. It is the civilisation that developed human rights and made racial discrimination a crime. Other civilisations didnt do that. It is a pro of the modern west not a con. Most civilisations in history dont even see racism as a bad thing.

All of the the above 3 could be much better but when we look at pros and cons it is a comparison to the other civilisations that have existed. Not a comparison to our version of utopia.

Agree on emissions and over the top corporatisation though.

Do you have any pros?
Well the pros are good infrastructure and job opportunities but don't be fooled by just the economics. Western Civilization has the highest rates of suicide, depression and an epidemic of isolation and loneliness. Plus homelessness and child poverty ,even though there is enough money to prevent these things happening.England still has a thriving class system, the USA won't provide universal health care, so if you have cancer, unless you can afford insurance,you will only be given pain relief. RE religious zealotry ,you only have to look at the ruling Liberal party in Australia .The PM is part of a evangelical church or Pentscostal church which has some very whacky views, the Catholic Cabal in the Liberal party has formed a powerful votingblock that influences policy and legislation. Eg patronizing views of indigenous culture and rights, appointment of school chaplains, the right to be a bigot ,homophobia, demonization of minority groups and being cheerleaders for antiquated and destructive policies that built western civilization eg fossil fuels ect.Australia is a very racist country ,you just have to look at internet forums, rise of One Nation, Kerry Ann Kennel, Sonia Kruger, Rita Panahay,Miranda Devine, Paul Murray,Cory Bernadi, Fraser Anning, Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones, most 'journalists' at the Australian, Herald Sun,Daily Mail,Sky News , plus other groups like the True Blue Crew. Mathew Guys election policy was mainly a scare campaign on African gangs and it back fired spectaculary.Michaela Cash hugging Pauline Hanson after her speech. John Howard on Asian immigrants.Everything that catholic Peter Dutton says and does.Constant referring to refugees as rapists and murderers.Denying medical aid to refugees.Channel 7 and 9 and their ensemble of white only celebrities.
 

Mister_X

Cancelled
Aug 19, 2018
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"Being poor in a western nation is caused by Laziness and/or Stupidity" lol you are an A1 campaigner.Bet you wouldn't say that to anyone's face you weak coward. Why are you on the computer at your parent's house if your're not lazy or stupid?Shouldn't you be at work at your high paying job with your top model girlfriend?lol You're out of your depth here bozo, go and get a job you bum.

I have said it to many peoples faces.

I am at my full time 6 figure job that has a bit of free time.

Never been out of my depth on any subject, keep trying ;)
 

Socrates2

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 11, 2015
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I have said it to many peoples faces.

I am at my full time 6 figure job that has a bit of free time.

Never been out of my depth on any subject, keep trying ;)
You are out of your depth, all your doing is trotting out right wing cliches you found on the internet and you're a compulsive liar like Trump.What sort of 6 figure job do you have? Lol.By saying people without money are lazy and stupid is not an argument, it's just a slur and an unimaginative one.What happened when you told people they were poor because they lazy and stupid? Did you get a good response? Lol .Or did you just make it up in your own head.?
 

Mister_X

Cancelled
Aug 19, 2018
121
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You are out of your depth, all your doing is trotting out right wing cliches you found on the internet and you're a compulsive liar like Trump.What sort of 6 figure job do you have? Lol.By saying people without money are lazy and stupid is not an argument, it's just a slur and an unimaginative one.What happened when you told people they were poor because they lazy and stupid? Did you get a good response? Lol .Or did you just make it up in your own head.?

Certainly not out of my depth against the Marxist peons on BigFooty.

I never lie and all my opinions are formed via analysis of data and the application of logic.

Reaction to my opinion - Usually they pull out the what about people with medical problems comeback. I acknowledge that this is an exception to my lazy/stupid rule. They usually acknowledge that Laziness and Stupidity play the major role in poverty in the West.

What are your causes? Let me guess #MuhInstitutionalDisadvantage #MuhMultiGeneratonalFactors #MuhRacism ...
 
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