Game Day Collingwood v Melbourne Practice Match

[Saintly Viewed]

Adams was among our best in the practice game against Melbourne. He has the kind of tenaciousness, ferocity and strength to his game that you'd hope to see in your main inside mid. If he wasn't better than the Melbourne mids on Friday, I believe he will be when performance most matters, when the real season is underway.

Whether he is better than Oliver, Viney or anyone else will be judged by history. For now, I am content to know that he can be counted on to put his body on the line week after week to give us first use of the football.

Adams is sort of Tony Shaw like.

Though to be fair Shaw kicked shorter distances but more accurately.

Both work super hard, both lead by example. Both tough as teak.

 

[Quicky]

As Hodgey said yesterday morning on SEN “everyone knows what everyone else is doing these days” there are no secrets in footy. It would be surprising to me if anything we held back isn’t already known throughout the industry because every session is at the Holden centre.

Defensive transition and our ability to maintain possession would be the two areas I think we “held back” and will focus on over the next three weeks. The defensive run was pretty obvious they looked 5-10% harder running defensively and both teams were about on par running offensively. Going a bit taller also inhibited the ability of our talls to work over their opponents. This then impacted on our ability to get 10+ possession chains happening which are generally the ones that lead to scores. That’s always likely to be the case when a guy like Greenwood gets 20 odd possessions coming out of defence. With Crisp back it’s unlikely he gets that much ball fed to him. In terms of scrappyness that was a lot sharper than I expected given the unavailability of our three cleanest mids, the weather conditions and the timing of the contest. My main takeaway from that was it’s the sharpest we’ve looked this time of year for a long time.

Another interesting point for me upon reflection was that Melbourne went shorter and we went taller which will switch once the season proper roles around when McDonald and Melksham return for them and JDG, WHE and Stephenson for us. As our structure becomes more settled and we lift our defensive work rate you’ll see the forward role players that were quiet yesterday (JT and Mihocek in particular) get busier. The issue they’ll have us that those adjustments won’t come until at least JLT 2 so they’d want to be red hot on the training track if they’re quiet v Fremantle.

Edit: another observation re our fwd structure. Reid spent a lot of time deep and Wills pressed up the field. It seems to indicate to me that it might be Reid v Cox and Mihocek v Wills for round 1. Unless we go three talls I can’t see us using both Cox and Reid up forward because it’s not mobile enough defensively when the ball hits the ground.

Who would you start, Reid or Cox?

 

[Scodog10]

He kicked 32 goals and had a league leading goal assists of 33 (collingwoods highest player had only 19).

That's with having Tom Mcdonald and Hogan as our focal points whereas Pies had only Mason Cox. So he easily fits into your 22.

And just the 44 tackles which is why his goal contribution needs to be high. I like his game, but it’d be borderline with JT as to whether he would get a gig in our best 7 fwd’s.

Who would you start, Reid or Cox?

Cox, but it’s closer than most would have it. IMO, Reid is the better forward and Cox the better ruckman. I value the extra benefit of Cox’s ruckwork over the plus of Reid’s forward ability. I just worry with Reid what impact he has if he isn’t clunking them? At least with Cox you know he won’t ever be outmarked plus he can legitimately be a 1st ruck Reid though doesn’t have the engine of Cloke to shift up the field and he can’t bend below his knees at all let alone like Mihocek.

My “fear” is that we compromise what worked for us in 2018 to go with guys like Goldsack, Cox, Reid, Mihocek and Wills together based on training form or a desire to evolve.

The five smalls and two talls structure that we used for the second half of 2018 was One of the talls as the stationary target (Cox or Reid) and the other more mobile (Mihocek, Goldsack or Wills). If JDG doesn’t get up I’m happy for Wills to be the replacement, but you won’t get the same scoreboard impact so you have to be very careful with the other talls. For years we struggled with what our best 22 was so I just hope it’s only minor tweaks or we’ll quickly fall back to the pack even with the quality of our midfield.

 

[Gone Critical]

Who would you start, Reid or Cox?

My view is Cox is an absolute monty to play round 1. He is developing and needs to do more but his PF and 2nd half od the GF were full of promise and we have built a lot of structure around him. More than most big forwards he brings other forwards into the game with his taps in some marking situations and the strong predictability he will not be outmarked. This allows Thomas, JDG, WHE, Stephenson and this year Elliott to thrive.

Cox against Melbourne was definitely the deep forward and I thought Reid got up the ground as much as Mihochek and Wills. At time all 4 of them were in the same forward line which made us too immobile but this clearly wont be the case come round 1. Wills almost certainly starts in the VFL. He didnt do anywhere near enough to dislodge someone from the team but showed some promise.

For mine the question will be Mihochek or Reid or both. I doubt both as we still need to consider all of JDG, WHE, Elliott, Stevo and Thomas in the 22 so spots are already at a premium and those guys give us plenty of aerial power already. It will be interesting who they go for and I would think it is very open currently. On Fridays form Reid looked more likely and his mobility and TOG was good so gives hope he will be back if he stays fit. As a talent he is ahead of Brody. Brody was quiet on Friday so needs to show a bit in the JLT. His 2018 was great and a surprise. He may have slipped under the guard a bit and teams will have looked at making sure he doesnt get the same luxury in 2019. Plenty have got away early in a career then been shut down over time, Jack Anthony a few seasons ago was a good example.

Its a real race on between these two for mine. Hopefully they can both be good and you never know maybe we fir them in the same 22. I doubt that though.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Strange thing to say - in 2010 we had options like Medhurst, Lockyer, Dick, Davis, Wood and Rusling and proven but aging performers in O’Bree and Fraser all available to be called on if necessary. At a stretch McCarthy, Anthony etc all offered break in case of emergency type options too.

I don’t know what lack of depth you’re referring to, but in 2010 it definitely wasn’t illusory.

Perhaps he’s referring to the fact that our depth in 2010 was mostly veterans and not the type of depth that can set you up for long term success.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Cox v Reid (in my view) isn’t even a genuine discussion between selectors anymore.
It’s going to be Cox.

He’s just entrenched now in my view. He just has unique advantages that won’t be passed up.
That incredible height. Nobody will out mark him, and if he doesn’t clunk them he does push it to our advantage.
This allows feeding of Hyphen, Thomas, Elliott (yay), Stephenson with big Jordan doing his thing.

Reid might be a support role type, will play games, but he’s just lacking what he once had. That simple I think.

Roughead v Reid v Mihocek v Goldsack v Madgen etc will be a battle for a position or two depending on needs.

Grundy rucks, a given.
Moore key back, a given.
Cox key forward, a given.

Interestingly all three can ruck, the latter two in support ofcourse.

If Roughead works his way in, likely as a key back, he will also support the rucking area.

Does Reid offer any rucking duties? Obviously not. He does offer genuine swinging ability so that’s something.
If he’s fully fit and regains the talents of yesteryear then who knows he could make a role yet.
Even if so, wont be Cox bumped out.

Good competition should help us.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Cox is a certainty. Didn’t think I’d be saying that 12 months ago and now with the new rules even more so. Will be unstoppable on a quick centre break.

 

[Gone Critical]

Cox v Reid (in my view) isn’t even a genuine discussion between selectors anymore.
It’s going to be Cox.


Reid might be a support role type, will play games, but he’s just lacking what he once had. That simple I think.

Does Reid offer any rucking duties? Obviously not. He does offer genuine swinging ability so that’s something.
If he’s fully fit and regains the talents of yesteryear then who knows he could make a role yet.
Even if so, wont be Cox bumped out.

Good competition should help us.

I suspect Reids demise might be overstated after an injury wrecked season in 2018. It goes with 2015 and 15 which were similar write offs. Still he was solid in 2016-17. 32 games over 2 seasons, career high disposals and marks in 2016, ability to swing forward mid 2017 and become a viable forward option. If you look at 2016-18 there is an evolvement which can still include Reid.

2016 Cox made tentative steps, Moore carried a lot for his age as the main go to forward and Reid had a strong season down back.

2017 Cox stumbled early, did a lot in the VFL and became a contested marking power there and finished better in the ones, Moore continued forward but stagnated a bit under the weight of being asked to do a lot early and Reid was solid down back early then swung forwawrd later when COx was stumbling and was solid

2018 Cox struggled early, 5 goals in 1st 9 matches but 19 goals in his last last 15 games made him a viable option. Darcy showed tantalising glimpses down back but season was a write off as was Reids who kicked a few early but was gone most of the season. Mihochek grabbed his chance and was a revelation. Had a few struggles late but a great debut season.

2019 As long as the are fit Moore and Cox can be pencilled in down back and up forward. Dunn and Roughhead may duel for another spot down back and Reid and Mihochek down forward. Hard to say how that works out at this point and the competition is great. I have a suspicion after seeing him on Friday Reid may be the better forward option. He is strong in the air and has more aggressive and better leading patterns than Mihochek. Mihocheks ground work and defensive pressure will be his strong points but he wasn't treated with great respect by the likes of McGovern in 2018 and that wouldnt happen to Reid. It's fascinating. The strength of De Goey and the aerial work of WHE and Elliott make less need for a bullocking undersized KPF like Mihochek if Reid can become the more dangerous forward. Still Reid needs to be durable and provide a defensive effort to shore up his position. 50:50 I reckon.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

^

Gone Critical fascinating outline you have drawn.

Be a terrific watch from the competition within our list.

Reid is the most interesting watch for me. If fully in form and healthy the guy is border A grade talent (certainly so as a key down back). An amazing mark and elusive style.
Up forward more a very solid B grade player.
Big query will be his fitness and durability.
Again people forget at his best he’s panels above quite a few key players certainly miles in front of Mihocek, Roughead, Goldsack for that matter.

Mihocek was a huge surprise for me; his goal smarts, his danger very evident. If he maintains that level he’ll be very hard to dislodge.

 

[Scodog10]

Quicky the past few posts should provide a fantastic indication of the difference between Cox’s actual and perceived value.

Cox went at a bee’s dick over 1 goal a game as the number 1 KPF for a team that was a kick away from a premiership. A supposedly underrated Reid though fully fit is capable of kicking 40 in the same setup. The massive game in the prelim has well and truly clouded some opinions on Cox’s development. For instance in the 11 matches prior to the prelim he’d kicked just 9 goals which is poor for a KPF.

I’m sure the counterpoint would be that he spent a decent chunk as the relief ruck or that his contestested marking is elite. The truth is Grundy was the number 1 ruck by minutes in the league in 2018 and Reid’s marking ability was a huge factor in his 2011 AA honours. Cox is the logical incumbent and my preference, but it’s a reasonable question because his status as the number 1 KPF in our setup is by no means the foregone conclusion some believe it to be.

Edit: it’s also worth noting that JDG and Mihocek kicked 24 and 22 goals respectively through that quiet stretch for Cox. If JDG’s issue lingers and Mihocek’s scratch match form runs into the season the pressure on Cox to hit the scoreboard will intensify.

 

[jakson68]

Quicky the past few posts should provide a fantastic indication of the difference between Cox’s actual and perceived value.

Cox went at a bee’s dick over 1 goal a game as the number 1 KPF for a team that was a kick away from a premiership. A supposedly underrated Reid though fully fit is capable of kicking 40 in the same setup. The massive game in the prelim has well and truly clouded some opinions on Cox’s development. For instance in the 11 matches prior to the prelim he’d kicked just 9 goals which is poor for a KPF.

I’m sure the counterpoint would be that he spent a decent chunk as the relief ruck or that his contestested marking is elite. The truth is Grundy was the number 1 ruck by minutes in the league in 2018 and Reid’s marking ability was a huge factor in his 2011 AA honours. Cox is the logical incumbent and my preference, but it’s a reasonable question because his status as the number 1 KPF in our setup is by no means the foregone conclusion some believe it to be.

Edit: it’s also worth noting that JDG and Mihocek kicked 24 and 22 goals respectively through that quiet stretch for Cox. If JDG’s issue lingers and Mihocek’s scratch match form runs into the season the pressure on Cox to hit the scoreboard will intensify.

Bringing up Ried's marking from 8 years ago is a bit of a stretch. s**t in 2011 it near looked like i had a perm and could run 5km comfortably, now though, i look like a potato and can barely walk to check the mail.
I love Reidy but we cant live in the past, like Elliot, we can only go on what they produce as the season unfolds.
I truly hope they get back to their best though.

 

[Scodog10]

Bringing up Ried's marking from 8 years ago is a bit of a stretch. s**t in 2011 it near looked like i had a perm and could run 5km comfortably, now though, i look like a potato and can barely walk to check the mail.
I love Reidy but we cant live in the past, like Elliot, we can only go on what they produce as the season unfolds.
I truly hope they get back to their best though.

It’s a valid point, but from my perspective his marking from 2011 is relevant as long as he hasn’t lost it. Whilst I think injuries have robbed him of a lot that he could do in 2011 they haven’t impacted his marking. The problem he has is the ability to get on the park to showcase it! Do you think he’s lost the ability to clunk them like he once had?

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

^

Gone Critical fascinating outline you have drawn.

Be a terrific watch from the competition within our list.

Reid is the most interesting watch for me. If fully in form and healthy the guy is border A grade talent (certainly so as a key down back). An amazing mark and elusive style.
Up forward more a very solid B grade player.
Big query will be his fitness and durability.
Again people forget at his best he’s panels above quite a few key players certainly miles in front of Mihocek, Roughead, Goldsack for that matter.

Mihocek was a huge surprise for me; his goal smarts, his danger very evident. If he maintains that level he’ll be very hard to dislodge.

Ben Reid will be 30 in April. I don't believe he can ever again be 'border A grade talent'. During last year's finals, I thought it significant that though he was fit for selection, he was considered less worthy of a spot in our team than Tyson Goldsack prematurely returning from an ACL.

The big query this year won't merely be his 'fitness and durability' but his age. Our over 30's don't seem to benefit from sporting longevity, and I don't think Reid will be an exception to the rule. He will be useful back-up and may even kick a few goals, but he is a very different player to the Reid who helped us win the 2010 premiership.

People don't 'forget he's panels above quite a few players'. Rather, they look at his age and body and realistically determine that he is not the player he used to be, and that younger players are going to have to step up to fill the shoes he stepped out of several years ago.

 

[sr36]

It’s a valid point, but from my perspective his marking from 2011 is relevant as long as he hasn’t lost it. Whilst I think injuries have robbed him of a lot that he could do in 2011 they haven’t impacted his marking. The problem he has is the ability to get on the park to showcase it! Do you think he’s lost the ability to clunk them like he once had?

In 2011, Reid took defenders marks, early body contact, working his opponent umder the footy and clunk it with both feet on the ground. As a forward im 2019,he's not likely to get enough one on ones to be effectivearkimg it like tjis. We need someone who is willing and able to launch at the footy. Maybe reid can do this, but it's never been his style.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Cox does something besides kick goals (though we’d like more).
He has this incredible height and reach that he is a menace to any defence.
He causes them to battle in the air, he brings the goals with his work, when not kicking his goal a game.

That’s his true worth, the menace he causes the opposition.
And as the game progress it’s as the saying goes: he doesn’t get any shorter.

In a way it’s true he doesn’t kick enough goals but he counters it by allowing his height to at least push the ball to our advantage.

If he was averaging 3 goals a game, then he’d be on a whole different stratosphere and that’s he’s not. But at least he is a giant pain he’s in the rear for the defenders he gets. That’s his worth. And nobody provides that height menace like he does.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Ben Reid will be 30 in April. I don't believe he can ever again be 'border A grade talent'. During last year's finals, I thought it significant that though he was fit for selection, he was considered less worthy of a spot in our team than Tyson Goldsack prematurely returning from an ACL.

The big query this year won't merely be his 'fitness and durability' but his age. Our over 30's don't seem to benefit from sporting longevity, and I don't think Reid will be an exception to the rule. He will be useful back-up and may even kick a few goals, but he is a very different player to the Reid who helped us win the 2010 premiership.

People don't 'forget he's panels above quite a few players'. Rather, they look at his age and body and realistically determine that he is not the player he used to be, and that younger players are going to have to step up to fill the shoes he stepped out of several years ago.

I think we are agreeing.

Be great if he can recapture his best, not sure he can. Interesting watch.

(As an aside: Reid is a fascinating case study in how supporters react. In his better days, he was highly valued, cared about, praises sung. Vital for supporters.
Now with inevitable aging, injury telling its tale, he’s discarded as easily as he was lauded.
Just an interesting aside. Not saying it’s wrong, just an aside.)

 

[Gone Critical]

Ben Reid will be 30 in April. I don't believe he can ever again be 'border A grade talent'. During last year's finals, I thought it significant that though he was fit for selection, he was considered less worthy of a spot in our team than Tyson Goldsack prematurely returning from an ACL.

The big query this year won't merely be his 'fitness and durability' but his age. Our over 30's don't seem to benefit from sporting longevity, and I don't think Reid will be an exception to the rule. He will be useful back-up and may even kick a few goals, but he is a very different player to the Reid who helped us win the 2010 premiership.

People don't 'forget he's panels above quite a few players'. Rather, they look at his age and body and realistically determine that he is not the player he used to be, and that younger players are going to have to step up to fill the shoes he stepped out of several years ago.

All very true. He wont ever be the player he promised to be but none of our big men are really locked in. Cox and Moore I would pencil in to start the season barring injury but the rest is open. There is a fair bit of hope attached to Reid getting back but he was a solid KP player in season 2016-17 and that may be enough. All of Mihochek, Dunn, Roughead, Cox and Moore are not yet established lock into the 22 all year players although I think Darcy is if he stays fit.

We need a few of those names to make sure the have good 2019s.

 

[BEEG]

Not even close Reid vs Cox

Cox every day of the week

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Not even close Reid vs Cox

Cox every day of the week

And twice on Sundays

 

[Lockyer24]

Reid is Mihocek's back up. I like having that option. (If he is fit when we need him)

Mihocek's influence was underrated. Hit the scoreboard plenty.

 

[Kappa]

Quicky the past few posts should provide a fantastic indication of the difference between Cox’s actual and perceived value.

Cox went at a bee’s dick over 1 goal a game as the number 1 KPF for a team that was a kick away from a premiership. A supposedly underrated Reid though fully fit is capable of kicking 40 in the same setup. The massive game in the prelim has well and truly clouded some opinions on Cox’s development. For instance in the 11 matches prior to the prelim he’d kicked just 9 goals which is poor for a KPF.

I’m sure the counterpoint would be that he spent a decent chunk as the relief ruck or that his contestested marking is elite. The truth is Grundy was the number 1 ruck by minutes in the league in 2018 and Reid’s marking ability was a huge factor in his 2011 AA honours. Cox is the logical incumbent and my preference, but it’s a reasonable question because his status as the number 1 KPF in our setup is by no means the foregone conclusion some believe it to be.

Edit: it’s also worth noting that JDG and Mihocek kicked 24 and 22 goals respectively through that quiet stretch for Cox. If JDG’s issue lingers and Mihocek’s scratch match form runs into the season the pressure on Cox to hit the scoreboard will intensify.

I think what's gotten most people excited with Cox (NTTAWWT) is that he still is still relatively new to AFL Footy, and every year he continues to get better and better... Maybe people see his breakout game against Richmond and project that to him doing it more and more consistently in 2019.

 

[Jen2310]

I think what's gotten most people excited with Cox (NTTAWWT) is that he still is still relatively new to AFL Footy, and every year he continues to get better and better... Maybe people see his breakout game against Richmond and project that to him doing it more and more consistently in 2019.

Its pretty surreal he has only played 44 AFL games.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Its pretty surreal he has only played 44 AFL games.

 

[Somebody]

Adding Elliot and Beams to the mix for this season blows my mind!

Adding Elliot and Beams to the mix for this season blows my mind!

All else being equal, if they were playing and in form in the GF we would have won by at least a couple of goals.

 

[Somebody]

Whats worse then no steam - one that doesn't work! Why dont they just stream via youTube instead of some internal feed!

Probably ran out of coal