Analysis Beveridge - where to from here?

[Substance]

I'd add Bontempelli to that list. Needs to hit the scoreboard or I'd be moving him on. He's been drinking his own bathwater since 2016 and thinks he's better than he is. Tries to go for the selfish impossible goals when he should be trying to get his team mates involved. No place for selfish players on this team and if he keeps it up he can go and join his mate Stringer at the Bombers.

Some things shouldn't even be joked about scrag.

 

[lachy]

On a forum such as this we can all have opinions, but in reality the knowledge level of those posting as to what is happening at the club and in the industry is extremely low.

As good governance there should be a review of operations, all operations in a $45 million plus organisation internally yearly.

Every 5th year or so there should be an independent review run by an industry expert. It should be done as a matter of course and not wait until serious issues fester as they had at Collingwood, Richmond and Geelong (being the 3 most well known with excellent results).

The review covers all aspects of football operations inclusive of roles and responsibilities.

IF a proper review finds Bev's time is up, then it is. If it finds there needs to be an assistant coach restructure, do so. If it finds accountability lines need restructuring do so.

DO NOT make these changes based on rumours, innuendo and heresay. Clubs who have done this have been perpetually unsuccessful.

Over the last few years we have heard Buckley can't coach, is stubborn and arrogant. He was one kick away from a premiership. The same for Dimma and also for Simpson (and Bomber Thompson during his Geelong days). We need to stop naval gazing, be honest and get someone from the outside to review the operations. The reality is a complete overhaul MAY NOT be necessary, just a few tweaks. But lets find this out as a professionally run organisation should

 

[Leon]

As long as we are actually talking seriously...


No, we definitely shouldn’t get rid of Bevo.

However, as someone who’s given him a lot of leeway with our decline after the premiership, there are several things that he - and the coaching staff and match committee - are doing at the moment that can, should and are being questioned.

Guido summed up my thoughts in his post, however to elaborate mine a little further:


- Playing English as the only ruckman at the moment is a huge bug near of mine. I think English is a good player and is doing ok around the ground, but he clearly needs some help.

We have Trengove playing at Footscray who is fit and can come into the side. Trengove is not an elite ruckman but he is experienced and can give English the support and help he needs.

I’m also of the view that Bevo is simply too stubborn with regards to the ruck.

I have posted ad nauseum about how furious I am that the AFL banned 3rd man up, a pointless and idiotic rule change that was bought in just for the sake of change.

However, that’s the way it is now and he is refusing to adapt, relying on our midfielders to rove the opposition ruckman. If the midfielders can’t do this, we get smashed in both ruck and clearances as happened yesterday.


- There were times yesterday when we had Billy Gowers and Bailey Williams at centre bounces. Massive WTF. These players simply should not be at centre bounces.


- I have liked the move of Naughton to the forward line. However yesterday he barely got a touch whilst McKay at the other end was clunking ever mark coming his way. If Naughton isn’t getting near it in the forward line as he was yesterday, why not move him down back?

- The selection of Hayes and Young on the weekend. I thought Hayes was pretty good on the weekend and Young wasn’t our worst but the selection was still baffling.


These are the main issues for me. Also, the players also should be coming under scrutiny. Bevo is doing some things that are baffling but they can only do so much. Our kicking for instance goal is a disgrace. The ultimate face palm moment against Carlton was in the last quarter when McLean nearly kicked out on the full from a shot 40m out right in front, and 2 minutes later Casboult nailed a shot 50m our from the boundary line.


I also am of the view that, as much as a player’s form can drop, so too can the form of coach.

At the moment I think Bevo is out of form.

I recall that after the Hawks won the 2008 flag, during the 2009-10 years their form also dropped (not to the extent ours has but they definitely did) and Clarkson was being questioned. He rectified a few things and the Hawks did fairly ok in the next few years, if you recall.

I also think that against Collingwood Bevo for the most part out-coached Buckley, we simply ran out of legs and didn’t have the quality that they did. He can still out-coach anyone on his day. He had a good one against Collingwood but came up short and had a shocker against Carlton.

I also know that as much as us fans are pissed off at performances like yesterday that Beveridge and the players will be too.

We come on here and vent our frustrations, but they’ll be feeling it 10000x more than we do.

I don’t think they’d be thinking having just lost to Carlton by 7 goals that everything they’re doing is fine and dandy.

Bevo is a very smart guy and a great coach, I don’t think anyone can dispute that given what he’s achieved.

I really hope that in the same way a player has to work on things that have contributed to a form slump that he - and all of the coaching staff and match committee - are working out what they are doing wrong at the moment as well.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Contrary to what most expect after a poor start to the year, the coaching department, players all get along relatively well for a football department. Bevo aren't going anywhere (even if I, like all on here disagree with selection).

The one thing I will say is if you don't fit in your are moved on. Dalrymple even though a good recruiter in my mind was moved on (overlooked). McCartney list Managed only moved as he couldn't work with Dalrymple anymore! Would have stayed if he knew Dalrymple was jumping ship. Dalrymple was not liked at the club, his style put people offside. My view is you need to work with all individuals and this can produce the best results. I actually think we could do with some fresh ideas yet you still need to be all pushing in the same direction (yet individuals and there idea's, thoughts should be encouraged.)

I believe the biggest overall needed is list management. How can you go with having too many talls who weren't much good to not enough talls in the space of a year. Even this year we did not draft a tall in the national draft!!!

 

[House_of_Dahl]

No. But coming onto bigfooty after a series of loses...yeah think I'm done with that.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Alternatively, many of the crap suggestions could be coming from his lieutenants.

Either way, Baby Bev doesn’t need to go out with his Bathwater Assistants.

Probably right and let’s be honest, it’s probably not a great idea to keep the same people for 5+ years anyway.

The problem is that they’ve got a stench on them now. In 2016 and even 2017 they were premiership assistants and would have been hot property. Probably not now.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Contrary to what most expect after a poor start to the year, the coaching department, players all get along relatively well for a football department. Bevo aren't going anywhere (even if I, like all on here disagree with selection).

The one thing I will say is if you don't fit in your are moved on. Dalrymple even though a good recruiter in my mind was moved on (overlooked). McCartney list Managed only moved as he couldn't work with Dalrymple anymore! Would have stayed if he knew Dalrymple was jumping ship. Dalrymple was not liked at the club, his style put people offside. My view is you need to work with all individuals and this can produce the best results. I actually think we could do with some fresh ideas yet you still need to be all pushing in the same direction (yet individuals and there idea's, thoughts should be encouraged.)

I believe the biggest overall needed is list management. How can you go with having too many talls who weren't much good to not enough talls in the space of a year. Even this year we did not draft a tall in the national draft!!!

A mate of mine was coached by Dalrymple. Said he seriously knew his stuff but was not someone to get offside with at all. Talented recruiter but rocked the boat quite a lot, and not in a good way.

 

[BRWB]

Contrary to what most expect after a poor start to the year, the coaching department, players all get along relatively well for a football department. Bevo aren't going anywhere (even if I, like all on here disagree with selection).

The one thing I will say is if you don't fit in your are moved on. Dalrymple even though a good recruiter in my mind was moved on (overlooked). McCartney list Managed only moved as he couldn't work with Dalrymple anymore! Would have stayed if he knew Dalrymple was jumping ship. Dalrymple was not liked at the club, his style put people offside. My view is you need to work with all individuals and this can produce the best results. I actually think we could do with some fresh ideas yet you still need to be all pushing in the same direction (yet individuals and there idea's, thoughts should be encouraged.)

I believe the biggest overall needed is list management. How can you go with having too many talls who weren't much good to not enough talls in the space of a year. Even this year we did not draft a tall in the national draft!!!

So because Dal was tough to work with JMac left?

Silver lining.

Thought desperately taking a worse offer than Dodo's first lowball offer for Stringer was horrible.

But then JMac gave away Scully for free.

Gotta love the silver lining.

 

[Antares]

I recall that after the Hawks won the 2008 flag, during the 2009-10 years their form also dropped (not to the extent ours has but they definitely did) and Clarkson was being questioned. He rectified a few things and the Hawks did fairly ok in the next few years, if you recall.

Hawthorn barely missed the finals in 2009 after Michael Hurley played the game of his life up forward against them in the final round. They proceeded to make the finals the following year and only went up from there.

Ever since we won in 2016, we've gradually played worse each year, and even more concerning than that, our list has worsened. While Hawthorn were adding guys like Burgoyne, Gibson, Hale and Lake among others to recharge an already talented list, we've been losing key pivots like Stringer, Hamling, Picken, and not adequately replacing them. On top of that, guys like Wood and Dickson, formerly very important players, are really starting to hit their declines.

People always say we're a young team and there's a lot of upside, but unless we find high quality goalkickers, we're never going to contend. As of right now, we don't have a single high quality forward in the team, not even one, and I'm not convinced anyone is even capable of becoming one. Schache's in his 4th year and he's never been consistent.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

the lack of development from the talls under bevo is concerning. i cant recall 1 tall player whose improved under him. most have either remained similar or regressed. apart from 2015, our attack has been shocking

i thought at the backend of last season he stopped all that s**t of changing players postions around. nope wrong, he is back at it and its ******* annoying and embarrassing

 

[Anja_Nees]

Hawthorn barely missed the finals in 2009 after Michael Hurley played the game of his life up forward against them in the final round. They proceeded to make the finals the following year and only went up from there.

Ever since we won in 2016, we've gradually played worse each year, and even more concerning than that, our list has worsened. While Hawthorn were adding guys like Burgoyne, Gibson, Hale and Lake among others to recharge an already talented list, we've been losing key pivots like Stringer, Hamling, Picken, and not adequately replacing them. On top of that, guys like Wood and Dickson, formerly very important players, are really starting to hit their declines.

People always say we're a young team and there's a lot of upside, but unless we find high quality goalkickers, we're never going to contend. As of right now, we don't have a single high quality forward in the team, not even one, and I'm not convinced anyone is even capable of becoming one. Schache's in his 4th year and he's never been consistent.

Lack of good acquisitions from other clubs is the biggest failing I think.

Hurley, Carlisle and Wingard were all worthwhile targets but we couldn’t attract any of them.

Suckling was a good get, as was Crozier though no one else was really after him.

Trengove, Lloyd and Duryea might all play some solid footy but none are part of the future. Cloke was just a flop.

It’s something we seriously need to improve.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

Lack of good acquisitions from other clubs is the biggest failing I think.

Hurley, Carlisle and Wingard were all worthwhile targets but we couldn’t attract any of them.

Suckling was a good get, as was Crozier though no one else was really after him.

Trengove, Lloyd and Duryea might all play some solid footy but none are part of the future. Cloke was just a flop.

It’s something we seriously need to improve.

so for all the talk bevo is a genies, great motivator and 2x coach of the year, hardly any "good" players from other clubs want to play under him.
a lot of players who go to the hawks talk about wanting to play under Clarkson. i know the club matters also.

but it seems bevo has no pulling power

 

[Hard Ball Get]

When did I fall asleep and wake up a Richmond supporter?

There was a saying about assumptions once...

 

[D Mitchell]

the lack of development from the talls under bevo is concerning. i cant recall 1 tall player whose improved under him. most...g

Boyd went from a tall forward that everyone was making excuses for in 2015 to an almost Norm Smith Medallist in 2016. Roughead from an iffy full back in 2014 to a premiership ruckman in 2016. On one view, Beveridge got the absolute best out of both when it counted. Had Boyd had better health, he'd probably still be improving. Schache is a better player this year than last.

 

[Braybrook Son]

On a forum such as this we can all have opinions, but in reality the knowledge level of those posting as to what is happening at the club and in the industry is extremely low.

As good governance there should be a review of operations, all operations in a $45 million plus organisation internally yearly.

Every 5th year or so there should be an independent review run by an industry expert. It should be done as a matter of course and not wait until serious issues fester as they had at Collingwood, Richmond and Geelong (being the 3 most well known with excellent results).

The review covers all aspects of football operations inclusive of roles and responsibilities.

IF a proper review finds Bev's time is up, then it is. If it finds there needs to be an assistant coach restructure, do so. If it finds accountability lines need restructuring do so.

DO NOT make these changes based on rumours, innuendo and heresay. Clubs who have done this have been perpetually unsuccessful.

Over the last few years we have heard Buckley can't coach, is stubborn and arrogant. He was one kick away from a premiership. The same for Dimma and also for Simpson (and Bomber Thompson during his Geelong days). We need to stop naval gazing, be honest and get someone from the outside to review the operations. The reality is a complete overhaul MAY NOT be necessary, just a few tweaks. But lets find this out as a professionally run organisation should

That’s just it mate, we aren’t very professional as an organisation. Our goalkicking has been bottom 4 for 4 years, what has been done about it? * all

 

[Braybrook Son]

Boyd went from a tall forward that everyone was making excuses for in 2015 to an almost Norm Smith Medallist in 2016. Roughead from an iffy full back in 2014 to a premiership ruckman in 2016. On one view, Beveridge got the absolute best out of both when it counted. Had Boyd had better health, he'd probably still be improving. Schache is a better player this year than last.

Based on what? Schache’s last two games have been two of his worst in his career. I don’t know how you could call that improvement

 

[Libba39]

With the list we have at the moment we were bound to take a tumble. Since 2016 we've lost M.Boyd, Murphy, Picken, Stringer, Hamling, Roughead, and Dahlhaus. Morris and Dickson are in their last years, and T.Boyd has hardly played.

Of the above I think we miss Roughy the most (even though he was a whipping boy for many here).

I don't see how we could have avoided bottoming out and I don't blame Bevo at all for this.

 

[Anja_Nees]

so for all the talk bevo is a genies, great motivator and 2x coach of the year, hardly any "good" players from other clubs want to play under him.
a lot of players who go to the hawks talk about wanting to play under Clarkson. i know the club matters also.

but it seems bevo has no pulling power

To be honest I doubt it’s Bevo and is probably more about the club and looking like it’s in rebuild mode, coupled with a reluctance to throw North style money around.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Lack of good acquisitions from other clubs is the biggest failing I think.

Hurley, Carlisle and Wingard were all worthwhile targets but we couldn’t attract any of them.

Suckling was a good get, as was Crozier though no one else was really after him.

Trengove, Lloyd and Duryea might all play some solid footy but none are part of the future. Cloke was just a flop.

It’s something we seriously need to improve.

I dunno...I've never really been sold on the "big name" acquisition. Look at the Saints this year. How much cap space and draft capital did Carlisle and Hanneberry cost them and neither of them have contributed to their 2nd placing on the ladder thus far.

Aaron Francis was the player the Bombers selected with the Saints pick that they gave up for Carlisle. Charlie Curnow, Harry McKay, Dan Rioli and Tom Doedee all came not far after...I reckon if the Saints had their time again they would have hit the draft instead.

 

[SirBont]

WTF wanting to get rid of the bont the bloke would be up there in the Brownlow you knob's his second for couches votes and also a couple of other awards and Caleb Danial his been our best player along with libba you are a *******

 

[Anja_Nees]

I dunno...I've never really been sold on the "big name" acquisition. Look at the Saints this year. How much cap space and draft capital did Carlisle and Hanneberry cost them and neither of them have contributed to their 2nd placing on the ladder thus far.

Aaron Francis was the player the Bombers selected with the Saints pick that they gave up for Carlisle. Charlie Curnow, Harry McKay, Dan Rioli and Tom Doedee all came not far after...I reckon if the Saints had their time again they would have hit the draft instead.

It depends. If you get it right it goes a long way. Look at Hawthorn pulling in Burgoyne, Lake, Frawley, McEvoy, Hale etc. That’s what helped them get back up there after ‘09.

I’m all for developing from within. I just see no point in most of the recruits we’ve brought in from other clubs.

If we’re going to fix our ball use and goal kicking it either has to come from the draft or from other clubs. If it’s to be from other clubs, I’d want it to be quality rather than players who are out of favour.

If we want to go all in with youth, that’s cool too.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

It depends. If you get it right it goes a long way. Look at Hawthorn pulling in Burgoyne, Lake, Frawley, McEvoy, Hale etc. That’s what helped them get back up there after ‘09.

I’m all for developing from within. I just see no point in most of the recruits we’ve brought in from other clubs.

If we’re going to fix our ball use and goal kicking it either has to come from the draft or from other clubs. If it’s to be from other clubs, I’d want it to be quality rather than players who are out of favour.

If we want to go all in with youth, that’s cool too.

Don't get me wrong I would trade our first pick this year and next for Josh Kelly because he is everything we need.

The Hawks were very astute with trading for needs in addition to absolutely nailing their late picks and rookies. This is absolutely a model that we should be emulating.

Its the needless coughing up of picks for good rather than great players that is bad practice. I've seen enough already to know that I'd much prefer Bailey Smith over Wingard.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Don't get me wrong I would trade our first pick this year and next for Josh Kelly because he is everything we need.

The Hawks were very astute with trading for needs in addition to absolutely nailing their late picks and rookies. This is absolutely a model that we should be emulating.

Its the needless coughing up of picks for good rather than great players that is bad practice. I've seen enough already to know that I'd much prefer Bailey Smith over Wingard.

The Wingard one is a good example. Prefer Smith all things considered. That said, Wingard is at least the type of player we should go after - clever, skilful and kicks goals.

Compare that to Trengove who never really filled a need and, if he did, it’s not what we use him for anyway...

It’s an aspect of our list management that needs serious work. If we can’t tempt quality, go to the draft. I suspect once we are back in finals interest will pick up from other players.

 

[Antares]

Don't get me wrong I would trade our first pick this year and next for Josh Kelly because he is everything we need.

Huh? Not really.

We need a gun forward more than anything. Kelly's a gun midfielder, not a forward.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Huh? Not really.

We need a gun forward more than anything. Kelly's a gun midfielder, not a forward.

We won a flag without a gun forward. Kelly has speed, skill, footy iq and is tough to boot. Our delivery into the F50 is beyond atrocious, we dont even give our forwards a chance.