Autopsy Round 5, 2021: Hawthorn defeated by Melbourne

[xmarksthespot]

A disappointing fourth quarter, and I was frustrated as anyone with how the game slipped away so quickly. A shout out to my ever patient wife (who is supporting an equally frustrating Collingwood team) for her patience and understanding at my yelling at the TV!

I won't dwell on the negatives, as they've already been spelt out in this thread.

Positives from the game:
1. Pleasing first three quarters. Good pressure and managed to lock it in our forward half for prolonged periods.
2. Best game I've seen from Ollie Hanrahan. He consistently got to dangerous spots, but more pleasingly, his pressure was present for four quarters.
3. O'Meara. What a beast. Amazing game. I do believe his clearance game is somewhat generated from the defensive work of Worpol and Shiels, so props to them.
4. Speaking of Shiels, unlike most on here, i think his game was solid, if not spectacular (baring the odd brainfade).
5. Scrimshaw had a fantastic game. I'm an unabashed fan of his, and his intercept marking was sublime today.
6. Big Boy showed heart coming back from a dominant first quarter by Gawn.
7. Chad threatened, without breaking the game open. I think he's hard done by umpire-wise, but in my opinion, he just needs to get on with it. Life's unfair sometimes.
8. Koschitzke worked hard up the ground, and competed well.
9. Burgoyne had some clever moments in defence.

I get that people are frustrated, however I wonder sometimes how many people appreciate the challenge of developing a team. In my experience, it's rarely linear and it's rarely uniform. People take on lessons at different rates, and sometimes it takes a while for lessons to stick. It's challenging when the results don't come on as quickly as we'd like, but what's important in times like these is consistency in messaging and alignment in objectives. It's really easy to change tack when things don't go your way, and it takes a certain resolve and belief in your strategy to stay the course when results aren't immediate.

Hold fast everyone, there will be bumps along the way (such as today), but we're on the right track. We just need to be patient.

P.S. This was the first time this year I got to see Box Hill on TV. Loved Jeka's continued efforts. He has a future in the AFL. Bramble looks a likely type as well.

 

[Maybloomer]

Something I am pondering is how much of our performance this year is due to lack of quality players and how much is due to our game plan?

Is our game plan (which seems to favour slow ball movement and repeated long kicks to contested packs in the forward line) hindering our performance or is it actually a form of damage control which brings teams down to our level and let's us stay around the mark for 3/4 of the match?

In essence are we actually out performing (funny thing to say based on a 1 - 4 record but you get my drift) considering our overall lack of talent and depth across the team?

It always looks like we’re getting a lot of the ball and our best players are usually backmen. It’s because we chip and handball and switch around causing absolutely no damage to the opposition who slowly drop back to crowd our forward line while we’re farting around upfield. One handball too many, a dropped TOB mark or a risky switch and it’s off to the races for the opposition. we might pinch the odd goal or two but 77% tells me it ain’t many.

I’ve watched enough footy to know which teams will regularly struggle. Sides that switch the ball a lot, sides that handball backwards as a first option and sides that send 3 players in to get one footy. The current gameplan should’ve been buried years ago.

 

[SA HAWK]

That’s what potential means.

Mitch Thorp & Beau Dowler had potential.

Lets see the guy play first before calling anything.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Mitch Thorp & Beau Dowler had potential.

Lets see the guy play first before calling anything.

Or I’ll just use the word potential, because I’m not a gloom merchant.

 

[savagelunchbox]

It always looks like we’re getting a lot of the ball and our best players are usually backmen. It’s because we chip and handball and switch around causing absolutely no damage to the opposition who slowly drop back to crowd our forward line while we’re farting around upfield. One handball too many, a dropped TOB mark or a risky switch and it’s off to the races for the opposition. we might pinch the odd goal or two but 77% tells me it ain’t many.

I’ve watched enough footy to know which teams will regularly struggle. Sides that switch the ball a lot, sides that handball backwards as a first option and sides that send 3 players in to get one footy. The current gameplan should’ve been buried years ago.

Yep, we've put all our speed in the back half. Problem is the midfield is slow to spread or they don't provide run so they can hang back defensively to guard space. There's nothing beyond the HBF for the opposition to worry about so we often try to switch, but the opposition are prepared for that because we're the only club who still does it regularly. When that doesn't work, we go the long roost to the boundary.

It's not so much the backwards handball that's a problem; it's the handballing to stationary targets, often at their feet, that's the problem.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[Bruno Oresar]

Baby has gone out with the bathwater over this one.
We were only 10 points behind till the last quarter against an undefeated team that has spent DECADES trying to build into something special. Right now, they're clicking and moving along nicely- rather than it being due to us being terrible I rather think we should think of it as them being a top 4 team that is looking to go deep into finals in the next couple seasons.
I think the way our team is cycling means that in two to four years time we will be performing at a similar level to what we saw from the Dee's today.
To the people saying we have no young talent: have a pass over our list by age again, then remember that just because their age isn't a -teen doesn't mean they aren't a young talent.

Our biggest concern in my opinion is that we're missing one or two midfielders being developed right now as we've got a few in Shiels and Howe who are probably not going to make it or past it. Other than that I would argue that our list is in a fine position; DPP depth is developing nicely at both ends (need to find a partner for DGB though), our backmen are arguably the best young group of defenders going, our small forwards are showing more and more every week, and we have a few more on the way, and our young wings are performing admirably.

At the start of the season I said I wanted to see us be competitive in every game, and that I'd be okay with the losses so long as we're showing something and seeing development. We saw that today- those who let us down weren't our young up and comers, but rather a fluctuating gameplan and some poor onfield decision making by players who are getting over the hills of their career.

Cop so much flak from my mate about Hawks supporters being fair weather mobs and right now this board is proving them right lmao.

Not fair weather. I stayed to the very end today. I keep bringing my young kids. I am even taking the family to Tassie this week. I have paid my membership again like I have the last 20 years. I am not fair weather just because I’m not utterly delusional like you. Didn’t realize you have to be a one eyed idiot to be considered a proper supporter. Blind Freddy could tell you our list and game style is yuck. Or do I just need to be a zealot and demonstrate blind faith?

 

[grumbleguts]

I am not sure our supporters understand the chopping of the arm rule or the legging rule. Quite embarrassing the vitriol at umpiring. The umps were not great as a whole, however.

Not sure you do, after reading that.

 

[burnside5]

I can't remember a time in my 40 years watching the Hawks where we are so poor
and have such scarce talent coming through. Our midfield is so shallow and we are bereft of any young talent in the forward half. Thankfully North will prevent us from winning the spoon.
When's the draft?

Not sure if North will actually take the spoon to be honest after today but I'm happy to take it; as we need every high pick we can get!

 

[grumbleguts]

Shutting it down was the wrong phrase but you dont have to object to everyone who sees things from a different perspective. I could be totally wrong and thats fine but i dont need you to tell me that.

You kind of do if you're wrong though...

Just sayin'

I mean if you go around a nuclear silo telling the cleaner that this button turns on the air conditioner and this one destroys the world, and you're wrong, you need telling.

 

[SA HAWK]

Not fair weather. I stayed to the very end today. I keep bringing my young kids. I am even taking the family to Tassie this week. I have paid my membership again like I have the last 20 years. I am not fair weather just because I’m not utterly delusional like you. Didn’t realize you have to be a one eyed idiot to be considered a proper supporter. Blind Freddy could tell you our list and game style is yuck. Or do I just need to be a zealot and demonstrate blind faith?

Seems like it on here sometimes.

You are a lesser supporter if you don’t say everything isn’t rosy.

 

[rei154]

Not fair weather. I stayed to the very end today. I keep bringing my young kids. I am even taking the family to Tassie this week. I have paid my membership again like I have the last 20 years. I am not fair weather just because I’m not utterly delusional like you. Didn’t realize you have to be a one eyed idiot to be considered a proper supporter. Blind Freddy could tell you our list and game style is yuck. Or do I just need to be a zealot and demonstrate blind faith?

Didn't tag or mention anyone in my post because it's always interesting to see who takes offense to it. If you're not a fair weather supporter then good for you.
Not calling anyone a one-eyed idiot, nor blind Freddy.
Have a read of my post again, then ask yourself if anything that was written there could be applied directly to any of your posts. If you're still upset by it, my sincerest apologies.
You can have your opinion of our list and you can voice it, in the same vein this is a forum and I can do the same about the way people incessantly complain about s**t that I'm not sure they necessarily understand.
There's no blind faith here, but I'm also not going to pretend that everything we have is terrible and that we're going to forever be terrible because players x,y and z are getting game time in our current system.

 

[almuz]

Glad we didn’t spend big $$$ on Tomlinson as a FA

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Disappointing fourth quarter, and I was frustrated as anyone with how the game slipped away so quickly. A shout out to my ever patient wife (who is supporting an equally frustrating Collingwood team) for her patience and understanding at my yelling at the TV!

I won't dwell on the negatives, as they've already been spelt out in this thread.

Positives from the game:
1. Pleasing first three quarters. Good pressure and managed to lock it in our forward half for prolonged periods.
2. Best game I've seen from Ollie Hanrahan. He consistently got to dangerous spots, but more pleasingly, his pressure was present for four quarters.
3. O'Meara. What a beast. Amazing game. I do believe his clearance game is somewhat generated from the defensive work of Worpol and Shiels, so props to them.
4. Speaking of Shiels, unlike most on here, i think his game was solid, if not spectacular (baring the odd brainfade).
5. Scrimshaw had a fantastic game. I'm an unabashed fan of his, and his intercept marking was sublime today.
6. Big Boy showed heart coming back from a dominant first quarter by Gawn.
7. Chad threatened, without breaking the game open. I think he's hard done by umpire-wise, but in my opinion, he just needs to get on with it. Life's unfair sometimes.
8. Koschitzke worked hard up the ground, and competed well.
9. Burgoyne had some clever moments in defence.

I get that people are frustrated, however I wonder sometimes how many people appreciate the challenge of developing a team. In my experience, it's rarely linear and it's rarely uniform. People take on lessons at different rates, and sometimes it takes a while for lessons to stick. It's challenging when the results don't come on as quickly as we'd like, but what's important in times like these is consistency in messaging and alignment in objectives. It's really easy to change tack when things don't go your way, and it takes a certain resolve and belief in your strategy to stay the course when results aren't immediate.

Hold fast everyone, there will be bumps along the way (such as today), but we're on the right track. We just need to be patient.

P.S. This was the first time this year I got to see Box Hill on TV. Loved Jeka's continued efforts. He has a future in the AFL. Bramble looks a likely type as well.

A very measured and reasoned post

Are you sure you belong on big footy

 

[Phil McCreviss]

Lot of talk in here about the game plan and that it should be thrown out.

It's way too early to say it needs to be overhauled. We can't gauge it's success/failure until this team has played a minimum of 50-75 games together. Our forward line is dysfunctional now because the forwards are still learning where and when to lead. Long bomb is not a strategy - it's because we have a developing forward line.

Remember we were asking the same questions in 2005 - the game plan and execution were infuriating even with decent young talent. Will take a year or 2 more before we start seeing results.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

I thought 1st quarter was very good and we could have even been another goal or so up.

2nd and 3rd quarters they really got on top in general play but thankfully it didn't translate to the scoreboard.

Last quarter was miserable as *.

All in all I find it hard to be pleased with only having 14 scoring shots and 40 entries for the day.

Nash deserved his callup with good VFL form apparently, sadly nothing seems to have changed for him at AFL level.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Yesterday’s game

Hawthorn ave age 26 years 2 months

Melbourne average age 25 years 6 months

Hawthorn average games 108.5

Melbourne 100.1

Less than 50 games
Hawthorn 7
Melbourne 6

50 to 99
Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 6


100 to 149

Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 5

150 or more

Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 5

Very similar list profiles

 

[Mercy Seat]

Lot of talk in here about the game plan and that it should be thrown out.

It's way too early to say it needs to be overhauled. We can't gauge it's success/failure until this team has played a minimum of 50-75 games together. Our forward line is dysfunctional now because the forwards are still learning where and when to lead. Long bomb is not a strategy - it's because we have a developing forward line.

Remember we were asking the same questions in 2005 - the game plan and execution were infuriating even with decent young talent. Will take a year or 2 more before we start seeing results.

This 100%. The way we play for the most part isn’t the way we train, which suggests we are quite a bit off where the coaching staff need us to be. That takes time, and it also takes the right cattle. I think we have the core of a good team, but unless we add top end elite talent very soon, we are just gonna be spinning wheels at the bottom end of the ladder.

On another note, one highlight the cut away to Clarko after another Demons free kick goal in the 2nd q and he clearly yells “fvcking campaigner”.

 

[Billyc]

This 100%. The way we play for the most part isn’t the way we train, which suggests we are quite a bit off where the coaching staff need us to be. That takes time, and it also takes the right cattle. I think we have the core of a good team, but unless we add top end elite talent very soon, we are just gonna be spinning wheels at the bottom end of the ladder.

On another note, one highlight the cut away to Clarko after another Demons free kick goal in the 2nd q and he clearly yells “fvcking campaigner”.

Agree. Of course the ‘play the way you train’ stuff assumes opponents are just passive. It’s easy to play a certain way at training when the opposition is hopeless (ie our own bottom 4 list), but completely different when confronted with a more talented opponent who are also trained to counter our tactics.

I don’t see game plan or match day coaching as the big concern right now. The big issue is the lack of talent on the list, caused by poor list management and impatience over several years.

I actually think good coaching has masked the severity of the talent issues for years and suspect it will see us finish 14-16 again this year while others fall in a heap

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yesterday’s game

Hawthorn ave age 26 years 2 months

Melbourne average age 25 years 6 months

Hawthorn average games 108.5

Melbourne 100.1

Less than 50 games
Hawthorn 7
Melbourne 6

50 to 99
Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 6


100 to 149

Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 5

150 or more

Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 5

Very similar list profiles

Burgoyne the massive outlier I am guessing.

 

[hk89]

Very similar list profiles

Very similar scoreline until nearly 10 minutes into the last quarter too. Sure, we probably dragged them down to our level up until the blow-out occurred, but it didn't really look like second top against second bottom for most of the game (to be honest, probably more like 2nd bottom against 3rd bottom until we capitulated in the last quarter).

 

[Brishawk]

Yesterday’s game

Hawthorn ave age 26 years 2 months

Melbourne average age 25 years 6 months

Hawthorn average games 108.5

Melbourne 100.1

Less than 50 games
Hawthorn 7
Melbourne 6

50 to 99
Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 6


100 to 149

Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 5

150 or more

Hawthorn 5
Melbourne 5

Very similar list profiles

There isn’t a lot of difference across the whole league on those numbers. Some but not a lot. They aren’t super informative.

 

[hk89]

I actually think good coaching has masked the severity of the talent issues for years and suspect it will see us finish 14-16 again this year

Yes, Clarko is a double edged sword from that point of view. As dire as our current ladder position is, the reality since 2016 is that we've probably overperformed given our list , largely off the back of good coaching, and a very structured game plan where most players know their roles well. The "know your role well" aspect of the game plan is probably also why we don't quickly slot many new guys into the team, as the game plan requires them to know how to implement it before they can get a gig.

The net result of that is that we get a few wins each year that we probably don't deserve if you look purely at list talent compared to the opposition, and these few extra spots on the ladder have meant we've reduced our access to the very pointy end of the draft compared to where we would have finished if we had a spud as coach.

Mind you, I'd much rather have Clarko than a few extra spots up the draft, but it is frustrating the system is setup so that being absolutely diabolical is sometimes in a club's best interested - depending on where they are in the development cycle.

 

[Lickmesocks]

Burgoyne the massive outlier I am guessing.

We are not young as we keep spruiking to everyone.

We just have a really poor list and lack of talent with our younger guys.

Clarko was talking about a 30 year old returning in his presser as well.

We still haven’t made the necessary changes to suggest we are on any proper rebuild path yet. This off season will be super critical. The clean out needs to be huge.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

We are not young as we keep spruiking to everyone.

We just have a really poor list and lack of talent with our younger guys.

Clarko was talking about a 30 year old returning in his presser as well.

We still haven’t made the necessary changes to suggest we are on any proper rebuild path yet. This off season will be super critical. The clean out needs to be huge.

This is pretty much the point I was trying to make.