Analysis Good, Bad, Ugly v Port Adelaide Round 8 2021

[arsene wenger1]

Crows fans: We demand a squad rebuild, ideally with a bottom-out for high end picks, and heads to roll in coaching and administration! IT'S OBVIOUS.

Crows gut the list, finish bottom, hire an entire new coaching department, and bring in some clout at the top end of administration.

Crows fans: Why are we performing so poorly? I don't even know what I'm watching anymore. Our midfield is poor. The players are making mistakes. I NEED AN EXPLANATION.

Yea I don’t get it either.....the lower we finish the better. No matter how much it hurts right now

 

[Scorpus]

I love how our answer to forward entries is to kick it as long, deep and high as possible and make sure that we have as many talls as possible at the fall of the ball.

Because what you don't want is any separation whatsoever or unpredictable entries to multiple leading targets. You need to ensure you do the same thing every single time

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Regardless of the age profile debate, I have zero confidence in our recruiters. We'll be at the bottom of the ladder for a very long time.

 

[Slippery Pete]

**** and then do a number of things in exactly the same way that led us to the dire situation in the first place

I think they’re trying to prevent 100+ point floggings every week because they’re realizing how dire the talent situation is at the moment.

The thing that really concerns me is that without that effort last night, which was very good (but really not sustainable), there is doubtless a 100 point flogging coming down the pipe.

 

[jackster83]

Crows fans: We demand a squad rebuild, ideally with a bottom-out for high end picks, and heads to roll in coaching and administration! IT'S OBVIOUS.

Crows gut the list, finish bottom, hire an entire new coaching department, and bring in some clout at the top end of administration.

Crows fans: Why are we performing so poorly? I don't even know what I'm watching anymore. Our midfield is poor. The players are making mistakes. I NEED AN EXPLANATION.

Problem is the same people responsible for us having such a terrible list are still there.

Roo, Reid and Hamish all need to go.

 

[UcantCme]

After kicking 10 goals in a qtr, against hawthorn, we have followed up with 10 goals in 10 qtrs

Everything needs to be reviewed starting with team selection

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[1970crow]

Yeah I can read. Your spin is worthy of the Fagan spin award.

If you're going to spend the next 3 years cracking the sads during a rebuild you've been wishing for for years, you're going on ignore.

I'm happy to lose, I expect to lose. It's the selection and structure that is the problem. And that's totally on the coach. Why wouldn't you want an entry to a free Tex or Fog at 45m? Wanting only consistently deep entries is more beneficial to our opponents than us. If the strategy is to get the ball to ground deep, do you need 4 talls plus ROB working ahead of the ball at times to create the contest? And then when it does hit the deck as planned, wouldn't you want more resources in that area?

Why are we playing so short down back? Mackay had 4 touches in the second half, 12 in total for 250m, almost all to contests, why isn't Worrell who moves well at 195cm getting a game? We had Hamill and Brown both return this week but we keep playing a guy with zero influence and shouldn't even be on the list let alone have a future.

Why did we play Lynch when he was so clearly injured and Fog was fit in the 2s? Not fit enough to replace, but fit enough for midfield minutes when Sloane gets injured? Tex had terribly quiet second halves for 4 weeks that just extended to a full game. He's struggling again, why keep playing him with 3 other key forward types? They're all being set up to fail, but Tex moreso because he's breaking down as we watch.

Effort was great, but it will never be enough. And the mistakes being made are glaring, the consequences are obvious and they're easily corrected. But we're dealing with philosophical imperatives, so you better just put me on ignore because I'll be repeating the same criticisms until we're not making the same obvious mistakes.

 

[WeedsMullet84]

the best thing about frampton is he stays out of Tex’s way...

A lot of people calling for only 3 talls. Didn’t we only have two talls in Tex and Frampton in the first 3 games (plus lynch)

Are we trying to formulate a game plan that caters to the sheer number of tall forwards we have? Maybe we’re trying to put them in the shop window, ha!

Also love how Lynch’s role as the ‘connector’ has been derided by so many on this board. With him in the side we were getting at least SOME quality going I50, now it’s back to pure junk.


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[CrowBloke]

1) Crows I Am said: " Our delivery into the forward line was terrible, just bombed it long every time. We need to lift our eyes and look for the short option. ".
Yes, this!
+

2) They're not allowed to go shallow. Nicks wants only deep entries.

1) It wasn't just into the forward line. All over the ground Crows took possession and hooked the ball around their bodies, blindly, just bombing the ball. Anytime that they had time was usually in our D50 and they nearly always bombed long and wide from there to a contest.
It was 'boomerang' footy --- the ball came back, time and time again.
2) My read on it is that the instruction is to play on, nearly at all costs. Our blokes do not have the skills under pressure to evade, create space, then look and hit up a target further down the ground. Even Sholl who is one of our better ball deliverers struggled last night.
If they are trying to play a quick game eg like Richmond, it's going to be years until we have the cattle skilled enough to execute ie to win the ball that's been bombed forward. The way they're playing now is not systematic, in fact it looks panicky.

 

[Slippery Pete]

A lot of people calling for only 3 talls. Didn’t we only have two talls in Tex and Frampton in the first 3 games (plus lynch)

Are we trying to formulate a game plan that caters to the sheer number of tall forwards we have? Maybe we’re trying to put them in the shop window, ha!

Also love how Lynch’s role as the ‘connector’ has been derided by so many on this board. With him in the side we were getting at least SOME quality going I50, now it’s back to pure junk.


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This is what we needed last night. Where do you get one of these?

 

[StonesThrow]

Ball movement is easy to explain. Pressure of expectation arrived and now that we're getting beaten each week they're being coached to avoid anything risky that might open us up if it doesn't come off. Deep forward entries to inevitable contests instead of hitting up a Tex or Fog who can launch from 50 is all the evidence you need of total and complete aversion to risk.

I don't buy risk aversion. We were risk seeking consistently for the first 5 rounds despite it not always going to plan and losing games.

It clearly gives us a better chance at winning than 'bomb long to a contest'.

We're being out coached and nicks needs to find a way around it.

 

[pjcrows]

Just for some perspective - in 2004, Hawthorn went 4W 18L.

Here is a snapshot of their list for 2005, with games played prior to the season when Clarkson took over (*thanks Slippery!)

Nick Holland 176
Simon Beaumont 173
Angelo Lekkas 171
Joel Smith 165
John Barker 155
Ben Dixon 143
Richard Vandenberg 109

Sam Mitchell 40
Luke Hodge 35
Chance Bateman 32
Campbell Brown 30
Brad Sewell 6
Jordan Lewis 0
Jarryd Roughead 0
Lance Franklin 0
Clinton Young 0

Throughout 2005 they played the kids, of course, but not every single week, it's not like that top group of players were all relegated to the VFL or dumped. The experience played a lot of footy with the kids.

In 2005 they went 5W 17L (one more win than 2004). They then added Birchall, Ellis and McGlynn at the draft, and Guerra in trade.

Then in 2006 a lot of those older players ("list cloggers" as they're called on here) retired but the kid's had that important experience. Results were 9W 14L, and improvement.

The rest is history.

My main points:

1) A rebuild doesn't happen without some semblance of experienced players playing. This needs to be done smartly, but if you throw 15 kids to the wolves without experience with them you end up like Melbourne.

2) Are we going to do what Hawthorn did? Who knows. But after those seasons you reckon the Hawks fans (many of which had gone in to the wilderness at that time) were happy?

The 2020, 2021 and 2022 drafts and trade periods decide it. If we fail, then have a crack. But we're about 3kms in to the marathon.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Also love how Lynch’s role as the ‘connector’ has been derided by so many on this board. With him in the side we were getting at least SOME quality going I50, now it’s back to pure junk.
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I cant remember the last time I saw Lynch deliver the ball effectively inside 50. His kicking is inconsistent and I've lost count of how many times he's botched it and kicked a worm burner i50.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Just for some perspective - in 2004, Clarkson's first year, Hawthorn went 4W 18L.

Here is a snapshot of their list for 2005, with games played prior to the season:

Nick Holland 176
Simon Beaumont 173
Angelo Lekkas 171
Joel Smith 165
John Barker 155
Ben Dixon 143
Richard Vandenberg 109

Sam Mitchell 40
Luke Hodge 35
Chance Bateman 32
Campbell Brown 30
Brad Sewell 6
Jordan Lewis 0
Jarryd Roughead 0
Lance Franklin 0
Clinton Young 0

Throughout 2005 they played the kids, of course, but not every single week, it's not like that top group of players were all relegated to the VFL or dumped. The experience played a lot of footy with the kids.

In 2005 they went 5W 17L (one more win than 2004). They then added Birchall, Ellis and McGlynn at the draft, and Guerra in trade.

Then in 2006 a lot of those older players ("list cloggers" as they're called on here) retired but the kid's had that important experience. Results were 9W 14L, and improvement.

The rest is history.

My main points:

1) A rebuild doesn't happen without some semblance of experienced players playing. This needs to be done smartly, but if you throw 15 kids to the wolves without experience with them you end up like Melbourne.

2) Are we going to do what Hawthorn did? Who knows. But after two seasons in charge Clarkson was 9W 35L. You reckon the Hawks fans (many of which had gone in to the wilderness at that time) were happy?

The 2020, 2021 and 2022 drafts and trade periods decide it. If we fail, then have a crack. But we're about 3kms in to the marathon.

Good food for thought. Wasn’t 2005 Clarkson’s first year though?

 

[King Elvis]

The prison bars at the end was embarrassing. Just be proud of the colours you wore in 2004 in the big boy comp FFS.

Will probably galvanizes the playing group.

 

[Scorpus]

I don't think there is anyone here that is genuinely suggesting we need to be amazing instantly and very few are underestimating the rebuild.

Most of the discussion revolves around whether we are crap/rebuilding and headed in the right direction, or crap/rebuilding and headed in the wrong direction.

Things like playing Mackay, asking Doedee to be a KPD, playing an injured Lynch until he needs surgery... these aren't just "yeah but is a rebuild" issues. These are dumb mistakes that are easily addressable and would give us a small win and highlight progress

 

[CrowBloke]

1) It's the selection and structure that is the problem. And that's totally on the coach.
2) Why wouldn't you want an entry to a free Tex or Fog at 45m?
3) Wanting only consistently deep entries is more beneficial to our opponents than us. a) If the strategy is to get the ball to ground deep, do you need 4 talls plus ROB working ahead of the ball at times to create the contest? b) And then when it does hit the deck as planned, wouldn't you want more resources in that area?

Insightful post.
1) Couldn't agree more.
2) Hitting up either of them on a lead in the 40-50m area demoralises oppo defences and probably results in 3 goals out of 4 shots.
3a) No. 2 talls and 4 good smalls would work, if supply is deep. We don't have 3 or 4 good smalls and our talls are not taking F50 contested marks. b) Yes

 

[pjcrows]

Good food for thought. Wasn’t 2005 Clarkson’s first year though?

Ah yes he was. Sorry.

 

[Murray2503]

Drop Himmelberg and go with Tex/Fog/Thilthorpe + 3 smalls (Edit: as slice suggested, above).
Walker is 10X the player EH is. I'd select Tex over EH every game.
OK, both had bad games tonight but I don't see how Himmelberg putting his arms in the air without taking a mark in the F50 is an asset.

Tex is done. He has no pace and teams constantly rebound off him. Needs to retire end of the year. I agree that Himmelberg along with Frampton are duds and need to go once their contract is up. We need to develop or bring in another forward through the trade. They should at least be trying Worrell up forward in the SANFL to see what he can do up there. Thilthorpe needs another tall partner in crime and at this stage there is no clear candidate.

We also lack a classy small forward or two. Would be going hard for Rankine when OOC.

 

[1970crow]

I don't buy risk aversion. We were risk seeking consistently for the first 5 rounds despite it not always going to plan and losing games.

It clearly gives us a better chance at winning than 'bomb long to a contest'.

We're being out coached and nicks needs to find a way around it.

We were 3:2 with a competitive loss, scoring shot win, when away to Sydney and a close loss to Freo at home. The Suns win and losing to an away Freo were poor results. Coughing up a solid lead to Hawks was probably the turning point and getting smacked at home by GWS the nail. It's about minimising damage and the forward set up and Nicks' own words is testament to it.

 

[feenix67]

I'm happy to lose, I expect to lose. It's the selection and structure that is the problem. And that's totally on the coach. Why wouldn't you want an entry to a free Tex or Fog at 45m? Wanting only consistently deep entries is more beneficial to our opponents than us. If the strategy is to get the ball to ground deep, do you need 4 talls plus ROB working ahead of the ball at times to create the contest? And then when it does hit the deck as planned, wouldn't you want more resources in that area?

Why are we playing so short down back? Mackay had 4 touches in the second half, 12 in total for 250m, almost all to contests, why isn't Worrell who moves well at 195cm getting a game? We had Hamill and Brown both return this week but we keep playing a guy with zero influence and shouldn't even be on the list let alone have a future.

Why did we play Lynch when he was so clearly injured and Fog was fit in the 2s? Not fit enough to replace, but fit enough for midfield minutes when Sloane gets injured? Tex had terribly quiet second halves for 4 weeks that just extended to a full game. He's struggling again, why keep playing him with 3 other key forward types? They're all being set up to fail, but Tex moreso because he's breaking down as we watch.

Effort was great, but it will never be enough. And the mistakes being made are glaring, the consequences are obvious and they're easily corrected. But we're dealing with philosophical imperatives, so you better just put me on ignore because I'll be repeating the same criticisms until we're not making the same obvious mistakes.

That's more constructive.

I agree, selection has been a bit off. I agree that Murray/Worrell should have been played at DMacs expense. I also think McPherson was the wrong choice for sub. Jones the better option.

Our forward structure was hurt by losing two smalls early. As a result we had noone hitting up or offering short options at about 70 metres and therefore we just banged it in long.

Our main issue is that we just aren't strong enough at stoppage and our mids aren't running hard enough in open play to create options. We are playing one lane footy at the moment and not spreading the oppo defence like we were early in the season. Cattle and fatigue are the biggest issues in our midfield right now.

 

[pjcrows]

I don't think there is anyone here that is genuinely suggesting we need to be amazing instantly and very few are underestimating the rebuild.

Most of the discussion revolves around whether we are crap/rebuilding and headed in the right direction, or crap/rebuilding and headed in the wrong direction.

Things like playing Mackay, asking Doedee to be a KPD, playing an injured Lynch until he needs surgery... these aren't just "yeah but is a rebuild" issues. These are dumb mistakes that are easily addressable and would give us a small win and highlight progress

You and others here find things that don't work out, and just flog them like a dead horse. If there is ever a time to just let it go and see how things pan out over a two to three year period it's now. Will it all work out? Who knows. But it's just mind-numbing to incessantly find the negative and pretend you're being insightful. When we blew it in 2016-18, yes. Now? No.

 

[1970crow]

Tex is done. He has no pace and teams constantly rebound off him. Needs to retire end of the year. I agree that Himmelberg along with Frampton are duds and need to go once their contract is up. We need to develop or bring in another forward through the trade. They should at least be trying Worrell up forward in the SANFL to see what he can do up there. Thilthorpe needs another tall partner in crime and at this stage there is no clear candidate.

None of our tall forwards have a hope competing against their opponents as well as their tall teammates. One on one is hard enough and seeing as making space out near the 50 is frowned upon, they're playing with one hand tied behind their backs. Tex returning to that method is probably not injury related, it's a political statement.

 

[mitchyboy23]

Good: One loss closer to better draft picks. Better intensity and contest work.
Bad: Losing to the ferals. Forward 50 entries. Slow ball movement.
Ugly: Matthew Nicks mantra of "prioritising others and looking after your teammate" has gone completely out the window - where was this after Lycett buried Neds head in the ground??? Every Crows player near that contest should have remonstrated and gone after Lycett. We should have been at him about it all night.

 

[GreyCrow]

You and others here find things that don't work out, and just flog them like a dead horse. If there is ever a time to just let it go and see how things pan out over a two to three year period it's now. Will it all work out? Who knows. But it's just mind-numbing to incessantly find the negative and pretend you're being insightful. When we blew it in 2016-18, yes. Now? No.

See how things pan out over 2-3 years? The points noted were all valid and you dismissed it with a '' lets see how things pan out'?

Thats terrible management in any situation. If there were clear guidelines (in any organisation) then you can see a path out. But to allow 'rebuild' to hide mistakes will have you wandering in a swamp for decades.