Analysis Play Todd Marshall...

[edgie]

At some point we gotta accept as long as Ken is here the forward play is what it is and the players just have to do their best.

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[FishingRick04]

Westhoff’s biggest and most vocal critic backs Westhoff-lite.

Actually I don’t. I feel the vitriol here is over the top and I’m trying to great balance. Play him as a forward or nothing, not this bulls hit floater role

 

[Waspy79]

Actually I don’t. I feel the vitriol here is over the top and I’m trying to great balance. Play him as a forward or nothing, not this bulls hit floater role

He hasn’t got the tools or physique for the KPF role.

 

[philthy05]

Oscar Allen pick 21 in the 2017 draft.
Todd Marshall pick pick 16 in the 2016 draft.
Also Eric Hipwood, pick 14 in the 2015 draft.

And we can't comapre him to Oscar Allen because Allen is one of the best young forwards in the league?

Thats another indictment on Marhsall. Its pretty reasonable to assume he should be as good as these two.

There’s several problems with this and they’ve already been pointed out but continue to be ignored

A) Cause your house isn’t a 6 bedroom 3 bathroom with waterfront views doesn’t mean it is worth zero dollars.

B) arguing he isn’t as good as superstar young players is a useless argument.

Here I can do it too.


Amon has been in the league longer than bontempelli , Sam Walsh and mcluggage but all three players have gone well past him.

Spud delist

We can play this game with almost any player on our list.

You don’t think we can name several better players than every player on our list?


The difference is that if we make the argument that Woodcock isn’t up to it, or lienert, or Bonner, we know that we can go to the draft trade and replace a small forward or utility with reasonable accuracy. Maybe not guaranteed to, but at least not horrible odds.

The odds of drafting or trading in a better kf then Marshall is clearly very very poor.

We’ve drafted at best 1 better than Marshall (Georgiades) in 30 years and traded in 2 (Dixon / jay) in the same time.

 

[Power Raid]

At some point we gotta accept as long as Ken is here the forward play is what it is and the players just have to do their best.

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agree

I have been critical of Marshall but the reality is our playing style doesn't help any of our forwards

 

[Duckimus Prime]

Amon has been in the league longer than bontempelli , Sam Walsh and mcluggage but all three players have gone well past him.

Spud delist

We can play this game with almost any player on our list.

You don’t think we can name several better players than every player on our list?

So you're response to a comparison of three players of similar age taken at similar draft picks is to compare a player taken at the end of the 4th round in pick 68 and compare him with a guy taken at pick 4 pick 1 and pick 3.

Yeah thats totally the same thing as expecting a first round key forward to perform similar to one other first round key forward and an early second rounder.

Also Amon was drafted at pick 68 in the 2013 draft, the Bont was taken at pick 4 in the 2013 draft. And since draft picks are taken in numerical order, Bont has literally been in the system for 64 draft picks longer than Amon. Bont debuted in round 5 of 2014. Amon didn't debut until round 7 2015.

So while your equivalent comparison was just plain stupid, you're opening statement was blatantly wrong.

The odds of drafting or trading in a better kf then Marshall is clearly very very poor.

We’ve drafted at best 1 better than Marshall (Georgiades) in 30 years and traded in 2 (Dixon / jay) in the same time.

See here's the problem you keep making statements that finding a player that can have as much impact as Marshall is difficult, while also pointing out that you can't compare him to the better young key forwards (and that includes Hipwood and Allen) because its not fair for some reason or another.

 

[backtozero]

Spud delist

Why do you continue to have an argument that no-one else is having?

It's only be suggested that Marshall be dropped to the SANFL to regain form. You've taken it upon yourself to argue against people wanting him delisted.

 

[Schulzenfest]

So you're response to a comparison of three players of similar age taken at similar draft picks is to compare a player taken at the end of the 4th round in pick 68 and compare him with a guy taken at pick 4 pick 1 and pick 3.

Yeah thats totally the same thing as expecting a first round key forward to perform similar to one other first round key forward and an early second rounder.

What relevance does this have to anything? Are you saying that if Marshall had been drafted with pick 68 then you wouldn't want him dropped?

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

So you're response to a comparison of three players of similar age taken at similar draft picks is to compare a player taken at the end of the 4th round in pick 68 and compare him with a guy taken at pick 4 pick 1 and pick 3.

Yeah thats totally the same thing as expecting a first round key forward to perform similar to one other first round key forward and an early second rounder.

Also Amon was drafted at pick 68 in the 2013 draft, the Bont was taken at pick 4 in the 2013 draft. And since draft picks are taken in numerical order, Bont has literally been in the system for 64 draft picks longer than Amon. Bont debuted in round 5 of 2014. Amon didn't debut until round 7 2015.

So while your equivalent comparison was just plain stupid, you're opening statement was blatantly wrong.


See here's the problem you keep making statements that finding a player that can have as much impact as Marshall is difficult, while also pointing out that you can't compare him to the better young key forwards (and that includes Hipwood and Allen) because its not fair for some reason or another.

Once they are on the list the position they were drafted at is pretty much meaningless.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

What relevance does this have to anything? Are you saying that if Marshall had been drafted with pick 68 then you wouldn't want him dropped?

Clearly explains why we gifted Robbie Gray so many games. The old "pick 55" gold pass.

 

[backtozero]

Once they are on the list the position they were drafted at is pretty much meaningless.

Clubs will undoubtedly have more patience in the development of a high draft pick than someone taken late. You pay a price, you want to see your investment come into fruition.

 

[backtozero]

Clearly explains why we gifted Robbie Gray so many games. The old "pick 55" gold pass.

Robbie Gray earned every game he was given.

 

[Astronema]

Once they are on the list the position they were drafted at is pretty much meaningless.

imagine how good i would be at football if i was drafted at pick 1

 

[Nemisis]

Below is part of an article leading up to Todd's draft.
IMO Marshall is playing within his capabilities - in a role which is probably the most difficult on the field. I believe we should persevere with Todd as he will improve with age but he will never dominate a match like some are asking for.

Marshall was never really able to piece together a complete game this season, leaving recruiters to sift through moments rather than matches of dominance. In 11 games for the Bushrangers he kicked 22 goals this year, but never more than three in a game.
His quieter form for the Allies was also a disappointing patch for him, and showed he needs to get more of the ball. He averaged fewer than six disposals in his four appearances in division one, and fewer than 10 for the Bushrangers across the season.
Marshall is still lightly framed too, which can limit his marking one-on-one and force him to get most of his touches on the lead. The 197cm prospect is only 85kg, so will need to add some muscle to his frame over summer to be able to compete better in marking contests. Injuries and cricket commitments have limited his ability to have a full pre-season, however, so he hasn't had that chance yet.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

Robbie Gray earned every game he was given.

Yep that was my point, was using sarcasm.

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

Clubs will undoubtedly have more patience in the development of a high draft pick than someone taken late. You pay a price, you want to see your investment come into fruition.

That's my point, hence the"pretty much". Justifiable to not waste the draft capital spent or to try to maximise trade value but it's not something to compare players by.

 

[philthy05]

So you're response to a comparison of three players of similar age taken at similar draft picks is to compare a player taken at the end of the 4th round in pick 68 and compare him with a guy taken at pick 4 pick 1 and pick 3.

Yeah thats totally the same thing as expecting a first round key forward to perform similar to one other first round key forward and an early second rounder.

Also Amon was drafted at pick 68 in the 2013 draft, the Bont was taken at pick 4 in the 2013 draft. And since draft picks are taken in numerical order, Bont has literally been in the system for 64 draft picks longer than Amon. Bont debuted in round 5 of 2014. Amon didn't debut until round 7 2015.

So while your equivalent comparison was just plain stupid, you're opening statement was blatantly wrong.


See here's the problem you keep making statements that finding a player that can have as much impact as Marshall is difficult, while also pointing out that you can't compare him to the better young key forwards (and that includes Hipwood and Allen) because its not fair for some reason or another.

You’re not missing the point, you’re actively trying to circumvent it with semantics.

I used Amon, cause he’s having a good year, but as I said I could apply it to anyone on our team.

Rozee? I can name just as many players better than him as you can name key forwards better than Marshall.

If rozee is behind a heap of excellent players, is he s**t?

Of course not.

Also my statement that finding a better replacement than Marshall is unlikely is entirely factually correct and I’ve provided indisputable evidence.

We’ve been in the league for around 30 years and how many key forwards have we drafted better than Marshall?

How many better than Marshall have we traded in?

Sheer inescapable fact says that our ability to find key forwards is incredibly rare.

 

[backtozero]

That's my point, hence the"pretty much". Justifiable to not waste the draft capital spent or to try to maximise trade value but it's not something to compare players by.

They're just trying to lower expectations to suit their arguments.

Being a high draft pick is somehow irrelevant now, same as they fact that Allen is being groomed as the Kennedy replacement but Marshall is now just third banana when we would drafted him with the idea in mind that he become our no.1 forward.

 

[philthy05]

Why do you continue to have an argument that no-one else is having?

It's only be suggested that Marshall be dropped to the SANFL to regain form. You've taken it upon yourself to argue against people wanting him delisted.

Bullshit.

You and the others like to hide behind the “we only want him to go back and improve and come back when he’s better” line but in truth you have continually called for him to be dropped when he’s been in fine form.

There has been a constant assertion from you that he’s been in bad form for months even when he’s had a string of games kicking 2 goals.

If he has to be constantly elite to hold his spot in your eyes that’s a requirement very few young kfs are going to meet.

You don’t even have the balls to say outright you want him gone, cause you know that will look bad, you just set the bar so high that the odds of him fulfilling your expectations are low.

 

[backtozero]

Bullshit.

You and the others like to hide behind the “we only want him to go back and improve and come back when he’s better” line but in truth you have continually called for him to be dropped when he’s been in fine form.

There has been a constant assertion from you that he’s been in bad form for months even when he’s had a string of games kicking 2 goals.

If he has to be constantly elite to hold his spot in your eyes that’s a requirement very few young kfs are going to meet.

You don’t even have the balls to say outright you want him gone, cause you know that will look bad, you just set the bar so high that the odds of him fulfilling your expectations are low.

Kicking 2 goals against bottom 10 sides, sometimes 1 of those goals in junktime, proves absolutely nothing.

Just as this team beating bottom 10 sides means nothing towards Hinkley being a competent coach.

If and when he does it against the best teams and the best defenders, instead of having single digit disposals and 1 or 0 goals a game, then I'll praise him.

Your arguments around what I really believe are ridiculous. You wonder why I called you emotional.

 

[TeeKray]

You can use stats to argue whichever way you like. The eye test says that Marshall isn't strong enough in the contest and that he generally doesn't do enough. He needs to lift.

 

[philthy05]

Lol.


backtozero

Just a question, let’s say we fail to develop Marshall and he ends up on the scrap heap of failed kfs at port.

Our core players we hope to build a team around are Amon Georgiades Houston Dbj Bergman jones (and so on) are 26- 19 years old next year with our centrepieces being butters rozee and duursma at 23 (next season)


Based on ports historical record for context, if you had to take a guess how many years it would take to recruit and have ready a viable kf to partner Georgiades?

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

They're just trying to lower expectations to suit their arguments.

Being a high draft pick is somehow irrelevant now, same as they fact that Allen is being groomed as the Kennedy replacement but Marshall is now just third banana when we would drafted him with the idea in mind that he become our no.1 forward.

He's third in line based on current form. You've said yourself this is a week to week thing (granted this was in relation to the team but that should be more consistent than an individual). I'm sure the recruiter's aims for most players taken in the earlier rounds is for them to become top line players.

Todd should do better. The team's skills and system should be better. Currently I don't think anyone else we have on our list will be any better in the role Marshall plays in the side.

 

[backtozero]

Lol.


backtozero

Just a question, let’s say we fail to develop Marshall and he ends up on the scrap heap of failed kfs at port.

Our core players we hope to build a team around are Amon Georgiades Houston Dbj Bergman jones (and so on) are 26- 19 years old next year with our centrepieces being butters rozee and duursma at 23 (next season)


Based on ports historical record for context, if you had to take a guess how many years it would take to recruit and have ready a viable kf to partner Georgiades?

Once again, I'm not saying we give up on him. You're hellbent on making this argument and it's not something I'm saying.

I've said consistently over and over again, dropping someone down on touch and confidence can be beneficial to them. It is also beneficial to the team.

To answer your question though, because you might get really upset that I haven't answered you directly enough, it depends on who we manage to draft or even trade in. Its a very open ended question and I can't argue for or against a player that isn't in the frame yet.

Just because Marshall isn't being consistent doesn't mean no-one else will be ever and just because we have failed to develop a KPF over a long period time doesn't mean Marshall is "the one."

 

[Jonts]

You can use stats to argue whichever way you like. The eye test says that Marshall isn't strong enough in the contest and that he generally doesn't do enough. He needs to lift.

See I agree with this

But the eye test also tells me we play better with him in the side, Especially when he gets link up play between the arcs, creating space for those in the 50.

I wouldn't drop him as there is no one else in the squad not playing that can do his role better currently.