Roast St Kilda in no mans land

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Dogga6

All Australian
May 11, 2021
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1,394
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This is a fair post.

Max King will be a superstar. I think you will see Marshall have an enormous year next year too.

The rest of our list needs to step up, but the positive thing is we have a glut of players in the age and experience range where we should expect a lot of that natural improvement. The problem is there is no guarantee they will. We can only hope.
I think you'll make finals next year but probably won't contend. I'd like to see some quality midfield depth come through. You've got the potential A grade ruckman in Marshall but putting around him a midfield that can work in tandem for the next 6 years can hold you in good stead.

If I'm a saints supporter I'd like Bytel and Byrne's to really push their way into that midfield mix and consolidate their best in the best 22.
 
Where do saints fans see ratten?

I loved him as a player but thought he was a good but not great coach. From my limited saints viewing he seems very similar to where he was, despite a long time under Clarkson.
Hopefully now that Ratts will have new assistant coaches things will get better.
 

g_TRAIN

Near a spoon
Jun 15, 2006
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I think you'll make finals next year but probably won't contend. I'd like to see some quality midfield depth come through. You've got the potential A grade ruckman in Marshall but putting around him a midfield that can work in tandem for the next 6 years can hold you in good stead.

If I'm a saints supporter I'd like Bytel and Byrne's to really push their way into that midfield mix and consolidate their best in the best 22.

Agree with this, Gresh too, he hasn't played in basically 2 years but if he can get fit and take his game to another level it will help a ton because he gives us a little bit of x-factor with his movement and goal sense
 

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Ducky Tie

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 15, 2011
9,063
20,690
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Where do saints fans see ratten?

I loved him as a player but thought he was a good but not great coach. From my limited saints viewing he seems very similar to where he was, despite a long time under Clarkson.
He's been ok. I think he gets a big tick for 2020. Club hadn't made finals in nine years so to get there and win one was a great effort. He strikes me as someone who places a real value on culture and that probably helped in 2020 with hub life.

I think philosophically as a coach, he is a bit limited. He is quite reactive and I don't think he's ever been a coach who places an absolute priority on team defence, which goes against the grain of most modern coaches. It's been quite unclear at times this year how we want to play. At times it seemed we wanted to be a quick team who blows the opposition off the park with speed. At times it seemed we wanted to be a contested/clearance team who played a workmanlike grunt style. At others we reverted back to a pressure style.

I'm still not quite sure exactly what kind of team we want to be. The only consistent style in our game plan is that when Ryder plays we are pretty good from clearance. That's not sustainable and it seems more of a situation we have accidentally fallen into rather than a deliberate reflection of coaching.

That's not to say he can't coach. I think he sees the game pretty well and can build relationships with players. He hasn't had the best bunch of assistants but he has coached 160 games so he isn't a young coach. He also had David Rath helping him who was a key figure in the Hawks era.

Clearly next year is crucial. If we look like missing finals, you'd think the club will go pretty hard at Clarkson. If we make finals, I expect Ratten will probably get a two year extension.
 
You wont get compo if he's a delisted free agent.

You are relying on someone picking him up as a free agent during the trade period.

He can sign as a delisted free agent at any time.
no he cant.

A: he hasn't been delisted, it's a small yet technical thing.

B: I'm pretty sure player's contracts do not expire until AFTER the trade period and the National draft. So, yes clubs can wait for Dunstan to come out of contract and secure him in the DFA period, rookie or PSD in late November, or they can secure him for free in early October in the UFA/RFA period at the beginning of the Trade period.
 

g_TRAIN

Near a spoon
Jun 15, 2006
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I'm not convinced he's poor tactically and I think tactics and technical is the least important aspect of a coach's job given a lot of this can come from assistants etc..
I think he's a good coach
 

Leeda

Talents B Sharp
Suspended
Sep 26, 2012
9,443
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Hawthorn
Sainters are slack
giving nothing,
Don’t know the coach…
Dont know the president…
Dont know the board…
Don’t know your members…
Don’t know what you stand for….

All I got is ashellacking for telling the truth….rock on dudes…

,
 
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Aug 13, 2006
14,778
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The strangest thing for the Saints is in many ways they actually fought out the year really well and can probably go in 2022 with a fair bit of confidence that they'll be back where they were in 2020 but they probably improved on strengths (deep list of AFL level players) whilst the concerns post 2020 are probably still the same.

Apart from the start of the season they showed they have a good team defence and backline and added to that with Highmore. And they've got a good forward game plan - which is get it in to King to jump at and put some crumbers and mobile options around him.

But the issues I have with the Saints:

1. Reliance on Ryder and Marshall to win the ruck and contribute forward. Fair to say neither Hunter nor McKernan solved this one and Ryder is now a year older. Unless they think a healthy Marshall will be well utilised playing 80-85% ruck and they can pinch hit I think they have to go hard for a successor to Paddy. I think Marshall is too important and too good forward to not be part of a duo so I expect the Saints to make a move.

2. Tying up a lot of salary cap in Hill, Jones, Hannebery, Crouch and I'd even include Billings, without A grade production - this one is interesting. Crouch probably provided solid return and can push his case as an A grader next year. Hill at least went from negative to contributor. Jones was solid and it sounds like the Billings deal isn't crazy money

3. The ceilings of Hunter Clark and Gresham. These are the 2 players on the Saints list who can join Steele and in time King as genuine A graders. But through injuries and some patchy Clark form as he was used in all sorts of positions we don't really know if they will do so. To me a huge part of the justification for the Saints investing so much money and draft capital to improve quickly was because they knew these 2 would work their way in to their top 5 players. If the Saints are to contend in the next few years I'd imagine at least one of them is fulfilling that potential.
 
Sep 18, 2011
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The strangest thing for the Saints is in many ways they actually fought out the year really well and can probably go in 2022 with a fair bit of confidence that they'll be back where they were in 2020 but they probably improved on strengths (deep list of AFL level players) whilst the concerns post 2020 are probably still the same.

Apart from the start of the season they showed they have a good team defence and backline and added to that with Highmore. And they've got a good forward game plan - which is get it in to King to jump at and put some crumbers and mobile options around him.

But the issues I have with the Saints:

1. Reliance on Ryder and Marshall to win the ruck and contribute forward. Fair to say neither Hunter nor McKernan solved this one and Ryder is now a year older. Unless they think a healthy Marshall will be well utilised playing 80-85% ruck and they can pinch hit I think they have to go hard for a successor to Paddy. I think Marshall is too important and too good forward to not be part of a duo so I expect the Saints to make a move.

2. Tying up a lot of salary cap in Hill, Jones, Hannebery, Crouch and I'd even include Billings, without A grade production - this one is interesting. Crouch probably provided solid return and can push his case as an A grader next year. Hill at least went from negative to contributor. Jones was solid and it sounds like the Billings deal isn't crazy money

3. The ceilings of Hunter Clark and Gresham. These are the 2 players on the Saints list who can join Steele and in time King as genuine A graders. But through injuries and some patchy Clark form as he was used in all sorts of positions we don't really know if they will do so. To me a huge part of the justification for the Saints investing so much money and draft capital to improve quickly was because they knew these 2 would work their way in to their top 5 players. If the Saints are to contend in the next few years I'd imagine at least one of them is fulfilling that potential.
Point 2 is wrong. Hill is on big money yes, they others aren’t.
 

Atomboy

Premiership Player
Jan 22, 2007
4,851
6,367
Yes
AFL Club
St Kilda
Sainters are slack
giving nothing,
Don’t know the coach…
Dont know the president…
Dont know the board…
Don’t know your members…
Don’t know what you stand for….

All I got is ashellacking for telling the truth….rock on dudes…

,

I would have liked this better if it was written as a Haikou poem.

Please revise.
 

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mad-saint-guy

Premiership Player
Apr 13, 2005
3,904
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I think the start of the season showed that the playing group had a finals hangover and got ahead of themselves after 2020. There were also some very poor list management calls (recruiting Frawley/McKernan/Hunter, keeping Dunstan/Lonie/Kent/Geary) and they clearly screwed up the pre season which most likely had an impact on our terrible run with injuries in 2021. Couple those factors with a very tough fixture and it made for a pretty disastrous season, though some respect was salvaged after the bye.

The biggest positive to come out of season 2021 is the game time and development we got into some kids. King, Higgins, Byrnes, Bytel, Connolly, Sharman and Highmore all took big steps forward. Clark and Coffield had tough years but they should learn from it. Sinclair reinvented himself as a gun half back. Hill came good in the second half of the season. Jimmy Webster finally got his body right and had a very good year, as did Crouch.

If we can nail the pre season and keep the injury list more manageable in 2022 then we should make finals, and even be pushing for top 4. People love to point out that St Kilda has one of the oldest lists in the comp, but the only player over 28 who is best 22 is Ryder. The average list age will be way down in 2022 without Frawley, McKernan, Roberton, Carlisle, Dunstan and possibly Hunter and Kent on the list.

2022 best 22 from current list:

B: Paton, Howard, Wilkie
HB: Coffield, Battle, Sinclair
C: Hill, Steele, Billings
HF: Higgins, Marshall, Gresham
F: Butler, King, Membrey

Foll: Ryder, Crouch, Jones
Int: Clark, Ross, Sharman, Webster
 
So thats the thing.

If he hasnt been offered a contract, then theres only two ways it plays out.

1. Saints backflip and offer him a contract to stay at the saints
2. He is picked up as a delisted free agent by another club

No other club in their right mind would trade for him. They are better off to wait for him to be delisted once the trade period is finished, and get him for free.

This whole "hasnt been offered a contract" thing that all clubs do is ridiculous. It just allows other clubs to sit on their hands and wait for the player to become available.
they wuld get him for free as he is unrestricted free agent. its the AFL who provide compensation.
 

g_TRAIN

Near a spoon
Jun 15, 2006
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I understand that, however if he gets through the trade period without getting a move, then he will become a delisted free agent, which clubs can then add to their list at any time.

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

Our chance for compensation is if he is picked up under the free agency window, otherwise we get nothing for him from the AFL
 

Ants

Premiership Player
Sep 27, 2005
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So thats the thing.

If he hasnt been offered a contract, then theres only two ways it plays out.

1. Saints backflip and offer him a contract to stay at the saints
2. He is picked up as a delisted free agent by another club
.....
3. he is picked up as a UFA during the free agency period.
Our draw as well. Every single one of our 10 double-up games this year was against a team who were in the top 8 at the time we played them.

Essendon on the other hand (who won 1 more game and finished 8th) for instance had double-ups against the two bottom teams and also Hawthorn (5th bottom), prior to them hitting their straps late.
......,.
Its also possible to rewrite that to say you played 3 teams who finished top 8 twice to Essendon play 2 teams who finished top 8 twice. You also played 12 games at home stadia plus another 2 in Melbourne at the MCG. Essendon played 11 games in Melbourne, which included one where we had to fly back to Melbourne 24 hours before the game (so really 10 'at home' versus 14). So swings and roundabouts.
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
15,596
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3. he is picked up as a UFA during the free agency period.

Its also possible to rewrite that to say you played 3 teams who finished top 8 twice to Essendon play 2 teams who finished top 8 twice. You also played 12 games at home stadia plus another 2 in Melbourne at the MCG. Essendon played 11 games in Melbourne, which included one where we had to fly back to Melbourne 24 hours before the game (so really 10 'at home' versus 14). So swings and roundabouts.

Saints were belted by us and Richmond plus selling a home game to Queensland is why they missed finals not their double ups
 
Jan 7, 2011
35,117
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Heaven. I mean Victoria.
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3. he is picked up as a UFA during the free agency period.

Its also possible to rewrite that to say you played 3 teams who finished top 8 twice to Essendon play 2 teams who finished top 8 twice. You also played 12 games at home stadia plus another 2 in Melbourne at the MCG. Essendon played 11 games in Melbourne, which included one where we had to fly back to Melbourne 24 hours before the game (so really 10 'at home' versus 14). So swings and roundabouts.
You still had what was almost certainly the easiest draw in the comp, while we had what was almost certainly the hardest.

(And if you want a non-biased view on that there’s a small thread about it here, which ranks the
respective draws as such:https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/double-up-games.1282749/)

And it’s definitely extremely relevant when you play particular teams.

I’m sure that everyone would agree that playing Richmond twice before their wheels fell off and especially before they lost Dusty was very very different to playing them late in the year.

Our double-ups finished the year ranked:

2
3
6
9
12

Yours finished:

6
7
14
17
18

You won 1 game against teams that made the finals, we won 3 (including two interstate).

We went 5-1 against the teams you had double-ups against (with the loss being by 9 points to Sydney, at the SCG), while you guys went 2-4 against the teams we had double-ups against.

As for locations, we won 4 of our 8 games outside Victoria this year (and three of the remaining 4 went down to the wire- under 10 points), so we actually had a much better win-loss ratio and were generally far more competitive interstate than we were at Marvel (where we actually only had 11 games, not 12, and went 4-7), so having more games here actually proved a disadvantage!
 
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Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
15,596
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AFL Club
Essendon
You still had what was almost certainly the easiest draw in the comp, while we had what was almost certainly the hardest.

(And if you want a non-biased view on that there’s a small thread about it here, which ranks the
respective draws as such:https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/double-up-games.1282749/)

And it’s definitely extremely relevant when you play particular teams.

I’m sure that everyone would agree that playing Richmond twice before their wheels fell off and especially before they lost Dusty was very very different to playing them late in the year.

Our double-ups finished the year ranked:

2
3
6
9
12

Yours finished:

6
7
14
17
18

You won 1 game against teams that made the finals, we won 3 (including two interstate).

We went 5-1 against the teams you had double-ups against (with the loss being by 9 points Sydney, at the SCG), while you guys went 2-4 against the teams we had double-ups against.

As for locations, we won 4 of our 8 games outside Victoria this year (and three of the remaining 4 went down to the wire- under 10 points), so we actually had a much better win-loss ratio and were generally much more competitive interstate than we were at Marvel (where we actually only had 11 games, not 12, and went 4-7), so having more games here actually proved a disadvantage!

Completely discounts the fact Essendon had to hub outside of Victoria twice.

Saints were far too inconsistent this year to blame the draw. If you had of fronted up and beaten the 0-2 bombers (great time of the year to get them) you’d have made finals.
 

Ants

Premiership Player
Sep 27, 2005
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You still had what was almost certainly the easiest draw in the comp, while we had what was almost certainly the hardest.

(And if you want a non-biased view on that there’s a small thread about it here, which ranks the
respective draws as such:https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/double-up-games.1282749/)

And it’s definitely extremely relevant when you play particular teams.

I’m sure that everyone would agree that playing Richmond twice before their wheels fell off and especially before they lost Dusty was very very different to playing them late in the year.

Our double-ups finished the year ranked:

2
3
6
9
12

Yours finished:

6
7
14
17
18

You won 1 game against teams that made the finals, we won 3 (including two interstate).

We went 5-1 against the teams you had double-ups against (with the loss being by 9 points to Sydney, at the SCG), while you guys went 2-4 against the teams we had double-ups against.

As for locations, we won 4 of our 8 games outside Victoria this year (and three of the remaining 4 went down to the wire- under 10 points), so we actually had a much better win-loss ratio and were generally far more competitive interstate than we were at Marvel (where we actually only had 11 games, not 12, and went 4-7), so having more games here actually proved a disadvantage!
You're ignoring the detrimental effects of travel, and just focussing on who you played.

You're 12th home game was in Cairns, which was your decision to do.
 

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