Recruiting James Hird Academy (Father/Son and Next Generation)

[eDPS]

Spoiler: JHA Boys

Spoiler: JHA Girls

 

[owen87]

What do you mean?

As in you can't just do an under the table deal to get a Tim Kelly to come across mid-season to play for your VFL side to then pick him up in the draft that year (for example).

Nick Hind is the exact kind of player I'm thinking of; had played for our VFL side for a couple of seasons, went in the third round, so not a star player but one we'd put a couple of years of time and effort in to.

 

[ant555]

There would need to be a few parameters in place to ensure that the ensuring attempts of manipulation of this rule are in place.

(i) the player must have nominated for the previous years draft
(ii) the player must have played x amount of games for your lower level side enabling them to be eligible.
(iii) a bid can only be matched after the end of the second round (essentially, the best 'state league players / 19 year olds' would be selected anyways)

I like the direction this could go but the question marks that Ants have are very real and as a team who has exploited list rules (Ben McNeice), we should be well versed in how to try and get around them.

I still do not see how it is an issue. Player X does not get drafted. He signs for your VFL side. He plays the full season. He looks good so you get to draft him.
We are talking about players not picked in the ND or Rookie draft so they are going to be player number 80+ in any normal draft pool. I was not talking mid season draft either. One pick out of your VFL side each season. There is not real question marks as you are not talking anyone that is even close to a top 50 player. There is nothing to exploit. There is not need to have too many rules. There would certainly be no need for a bidding system.

The McNeice situation was more about the loose parameters the AFL put on the Cat B rookie rules. This would be very black and white.
If a player plays a full season in your VFL system you get a chance to draft him. One pick.

Not like there is a stream of 15 plus players drafted out of the second tier comps that end up being super stars every year.

Seriously there is no real rorting to be done. The is no draft manipulations. It is not about the cream of the crop each year. It is about backing yourself to find one hidden gem a year that was passed over or maybe delisted from another club.

 

[ant555]

The parameters don't need to be that complicated

They have to
1. Have been
A) in your NGA prior to their 18yo draft year; or
B) eligible to have been in your NGA (and wasnt) and joined your VFL team before the age of 21 (this encaptures guys like Walla)

2. Play 2+ years for you aligned VFL team

Then they have to nominate for the draft and if they go undrafted you can prelist them as a rookie before the rookie draft.

Stops clubs from enticing players to switch and play for their VFL/WAFL as they wouldnt be eligible.

Why 2 or more seasons in your VFL side ?
The parameter is easy. It is one pick at the end of the season for a player who has played the year in your VFL side. What does it really matter if your are enticing a player to play in your VFL side ? We are talking a total of 18 players that where not drafted in the previous years or possibly delisted by another club.

Maybe it was lost in translation but I was not referring to mid season drafts either. Just one pick at the end of the season. Maybe the only parameter could be it is a rookie spot that is available for the pick as no really good player would stand out of a draft and play VFL for a year just to land on the rookie list.

 

[ant555]

Better.

I'd say there'd be a minimum games played / time on a reserves list to qualify to prevent mid-season meddling, but the above is pretty much what I'd have said is the kind of thing you'd want.

Not sure how the mid season could be meddled with anyway but even you could convince someone from another VFL /SANFL/WAFL club to come mid season and finish the year I doubt it would be that big of an issue.

 

[Towno78]

Talking about one player per year. Real big Rort available there

But can you imagine the uproar if Essendon were to do shady things to snag a bloke whom no one wants?

 

[ant555]

But can you imagine the uproar if Essendon were to do shady things to snag a bloke whom no one wants?

Well every club could do it

 

[owen87]

Not sure how the mid season could be meddled with anyway but even you could convince someone from another VFL /SANFL/WAFL club to come mid season and finish the year I doubt it would be that big of an issue.

Wealthy coterie members could arrange it if they wanted I'm sure. We all know if the AFL leave a loophole open, someone will use it.

 

[TheGrizz]

Why 2 or more seasons in your VFL side ?
The parameter is easy. It is one pick at the end of the season for a player who has played the year in your VFL side. What does it really matter if your are enticing a player to play in your VFL side ? We are talking a total of 18 players that where not drafted in the previous years or possibly delisted by another club.

Maybe it was lost in translation but I was not referring to mid season drafts either. Just one pick at the end of the season. Maybe the only parameter could be it is a rookie spot that is available for the pick as no really good player would stand out of a draft and play VFL for a year just to land on the rookie list.

Because I am not on board with the idea of just selecting guys from your VFL team for the reasons that it could be 'rorted', even if one player per year for each club is the maximum.

I was more trying to find a way for clubs to actually give a stuff about their NGAs now that you cant just cherry-pick the top 20 talents that were going to get drafted.
If you said to clubs that you can just pre select undrafted NGA prospects that you put the time into actually developing, you may not see clubs basically abandon their NGA academies like many have.

If for example we had the opportunity to bring an talented, yet extremely raw 18yo down from the Tiwis, the idea I stipulated would allow for us to put time into developing hin at VFL level, and if turns out to be the next Walla, then great - we get first dibs.

 

[ant555]

Because I am not on board with the idea of just selecting guys from your VFL team for the reasons that it could be 'rorted', even if one player per year for each club is the maximum.

I was more trying to find a way for clubs to actually give a stuff about their NGAs now that you cant just cherry-pick the top 20 talents that were going to get drafted.
If you said to clubs that you can just pre select undrafted NGA prospects that you put the time into actually developing, you may not see clubs basically abandon their NGA academies like many have.

If for example we had the opportunity to bring an talented, yet extremely raw 18yo down from the Tiwis, the idea I stipulated would allow for us to put time into developing hin at VFL level, and if turns out to be the next Walla, then great - we get first dibs.

I am still trying to work out how maybe getting access to a player rated at best number 80 that plays a full year in your VFL side can be a rort.
There is no rort. No good players are going to be hiding away and playing VFL for a year after not nominating for a draft and if they did it would be very obvious. The AFL is hardly going to let an AA under 18 not nominate and then pick a club.

You are looking about players passed over by every club at least 5 times. Where is the rort ? Are you saying players will sit out a draft and then play VFL for a season just to land at a club ?

The NGA is not going to disappear . It is an AFL program . I may have missed it but which clubs have abandoned NGA ? a few gave up some areas that I know and we got told to invest more time into our Tiwi zone or lose it. The NGA was a rort. I would argue clubs would still put time into their NGA zone if they knew a player could play in their VFL and they get first access to them. They would be a player that was not good enough to attract a bid inside the top 40 .

It could also be a few of the train on players staying on for a shot.

I like boosting the NGA prospects. I have no idea with that. Just can not see the rort in clubs being good enough to maybe find a diamond in the scrap heap of undrafted players and backing themselves to put them in their VFL side to develop them. Lets face it we have a few of Richmond's rough diamonds and the Saints jumped on Hind before we did . Having found a decent kid that was not drafted and getting him on board in the VFL I do not see the issue. If a NGA player is better then he will get selected. I suspect some NGA players not drafted would get into the VFL anyway if clubs thought they would get access.

It is no worse than asking a F/S to not nominate for the draft and play top age TAC.

 

[ant555]

Wealthy coterie members could arrange it if they wanted I'm sure. We all know if the AFL leave a loophole open, someone will use it.

If it was to find a JUH yes and it would be an issue but we are talking about players passed over in a draft 5 or 6 times including missing a rookie spot and then playing a lower grade. Most would have even had limited NAB exposure. If you can find a super star from the scraps then more power to you. Maybe it will highlight issues in how others recruit. There is no way a top 50 prospect is going to pass up the ND and play VFL for a year in the hope they will be the one selected at their chosen club. Too bad if you get injured and secondly if they do not go in the draft then they can pick a side anyway. On top of that what is the issue with finding someone out of the top level and recruiting them before the transfer window closes with the prospect of him being your guy ? Lets face it most clubs would be looking at brining in 4 or 5 prospects to look at over a season which may open up for other clubs to pick of the second or third of those guys not selected in the open draft.

 

[Yoda_]

I like fired up Ant

*grabs popcorn*

 

[owen87]

If it was to find a JUH yes and it would be an issue but we are talking about players passed over in a draft 5 or 6 times including missing a rookie spot and then playing a lower grade. Most would have even had limited NAB exposure. If you can find a super star from the scraps then more power to you. Maybe it will highlight issues in how others recruit. There is no way a top 50 prospect is going to pass up the ND and play VFL for a year in the hope they will be the one selected at their chosen club. Too bad if you get injured and secondly if they do not go in the draft then they can pick a side anyway. On top of that what is the issue with finding someone out of the top level and recruiting them before the transfer window closes with the prospect of him being your guy ? Lets face it most clubs would be looking at brining in 4 or 5 prospects to look at over a season which may open up for other clubs to pick of the second or third of those guys not selected in the open draft.

As I said;

We all know if the AFL leave a loophole open, someone will use it.

 

[ant555]

As I said;

What loophole is available ? And I am talking realistic. In reality we are talking about clubs sifting through players 80 to 120 in any given year.
There would be no obvious draft tampering as there is no way the AFL would sit by again and let a repeat of the NGA happen.

 

[Yoda_]

Because I am not on board with the idea of just selecting guys from your VFL team for the reasons that it could be 'rorted', even if one player per year for each club is the maximum.

I was more trying to find a way for clubs to actually give a stuff about their NGAs now that you cant just cherry-pick the top 20 talents that were going to get drafted.
If you said to clubs that you can just pre select undrafted NGA prospects that you put the time into actually developing, you may not see clubs basically abandon their NGA academies like many have.

If for example we had the opportunity to bring an talented, yet extremely raw 18yo down from the Tiwis, the idea I stipulated would allow for us to put time into developing hin at VFL level, and if turns out to be the next Walla, then great - we get first dibs.

Keeping it as simple as anything. If a kid is overlooked in there 18th year, they obviously weren't good enough. If they become a likely draft prospect in there 19th year, then absolutely the home club should have first rights providing said player has played in there seconds side.

Can argue blue in the face that clubs will sort the system but those parameters will be closely monitored to ensure the integrity of the system.

The most damning thing is what happens after selection by said home club. Do they lose a Cat A / B rookie selection? Does said home club lose the ability to select a top 20, 19th year NGA the following year? Lots of options but I feel ant555's discussion has merret and a solid basis to build around.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Keeping it as simple as anything. If a kid is overlooked in there 18th year, they obviously weren't good enough. If they become a likely draft prospect in there 19th year, then absolutely the home club should have first rights providing said player has played in there seconds side.

Can argue blue in the face that clubs will sort the system but those parameters will be closely monitored to ensure the integrity of the system.

The most damning thing is what happens after selection by said home club. Do they lose a Cat A / B rookie selection? Does said home club lose the ability to select a top 20, 19th year NGA the following year? Lots of options but I feel ant555's discussion has merret and a solid basis to build around.

This stuff is romantic but beyond that I don’t really get it. What has the “home club” really invested that should give them first crack?

Essendon has a VFL team. It has to be populated. The players there are semi pro, looking for opportunity. The clubs are of course interested in the best players adjacent to AFL lists..

It’s quite different to when we pay for the development of kids outside the regular pathways “academy” style. VFL players should be in the draft, open to all clubs.

Don’t know if I’m missing something.

 

[Yoda_]

This stuff is romantic but beyond that I don’t really get it. What has the “home club” really invested that should give them first crack?

Essendon has a VFL team. It has to be populated. The players there are semi pro, looking for opportunity. The clubs are of course interested in the best players adjacent to AFL lists..

It’s quite different to when we pay for the development of kids outside the regular pathways “academy” style. VFL players should be in the draft, open to all clubs.

Don’t know if I’m missing something.

IT's not like we are going to be developing several of these types. It would be for those 1 or 2 kids who are on the cusp, whom, with some minor extra development could become AFL quality players.


Clubs try and exploit things, we can all agree with that but they also aren't irresponsible, they will do due diligence.

 

[fairbump_playon]

IT's not like we are going to be developing several of these types. It would be for those 1 or 2 kids who are on the cusp, whom, with some minor extra development could become AFL quality players.


Clubs try and exploit things, we can all agree with that but they also aren't irresponsible, they will do due diligence.

I guess I’m asking wouldn’t simply playing and training at VFL level be the extra development opportunity they need?

Or are you suggesting that clubs should expose kids who have high potential (but who aren’t currently VFL standard) to VFL footy in the hope they may leapfrog VFL level players?

I’m not taking the piss by the way, truly just trying to understand

 

[Yoda_]

I guess I’m asking wouldn’t simply playing and training at VFL level be the extra development opportunity they need?

Or are you suggesting that clubs should expose kids who have high potential (but who aren’t currently VFL standard) to VFL footy in the hope they may leapfrog VFL level players?

I’m not taking the piss by the way, truly just trying to understand

I guess it is a bit each way in the current environment.

These kids would still be NGA qualified but only eligible to play VFL football. These AFL clubs are probably getting a leg up by having direct access to such kids but they'd be no different to a Williamstown signing a 19 year old kid anyway. As mentioned, these borderline NGA kids aren't going to top 20 selections unless the right parameters are put in place (ensuring they nominate for the year prior is the obvious big one to ensure integrity of this 19 y.o NGA nomination hypothetical).

 

[ant555]

I guess I’m asking wouldn’t simply playing and training at VFL level be the extra development opportunity they need?

Or are you suggesting that clubs should expose kids who have high potential (but who aren’t currently VFL standard) to VFL footy in the hope they may leapfrog VFL level players?

I’m not taking the piss by the way, truly just trying to understand

People seem to have made a lot out of a simple idea. The idea was very basic. Clubs can have priority access to a player that plays a full season in their VFL. Does not matter what age or where they came from. For example we would have had priority to pick Nick Hind or Walla rather than them going into the open draft . Somehow everyone has been trying to find a loophole or advantage that is not really there. It is just a simple reward for clubs doing some smart VFL recruiting and having a good VFL system. It was never really just an idea about developing 19 year old players. The player you may find could be someone like Durham who Richmond recruited and then we picked off. Could be someone you had an eye on in the SANFL and want to get across to have a closer look.
With only one pick there is not a massive list impact or the chance clubs can stockpile. I would think that most of the players taken would be in the round 6 to rookie range and to expand the idea a little you could make it a priority rookie pick. At least then players could make a choice on going to the ND and maybe getting drafted into a two year deal for a bit more money or being happy to go with a confirmed 1 year rookie deal.

The NGA will always be there as it is more a tool for 16 and 17 year old players from backgrounds that may have seen them not in the mainstream system. My original idea did not have NGA players being part of it. They have their own draft pathway. It was solely an idea for VFL /SANFL / WAFL players .

 

[ant555]

Basic idea. Possibly not really needed but would be a plus for the State league , particularly the VFL.
To stop clubs playing around with it too much you could do a few things things.
Starting point is obviously one priority pick per club from their state league side.
Pick is a rookie pick.
Only for players older than 20 at the start of January . Reason I added this is the Northern Clubs VFL sides play a number of their Academy players which they already have access to.
For players who play a full season of State League.
Clubs do not have the priority pick in the mid season draft. Only the rookie draft. Mid season draft still open to whoever nominates.
NGA or Academy players not involved which was never what I was thinking anyway. What we have now applies to them.

I would however like to see the Victorian Academy / NGA players / Father Sons play some games of VFL footy if they are physically ready. I think for those who are up to it 2 or 3 games at VFL level to go with what they are doing with NAB or School footy would be an advantage to them. No rule changes. Just play a few games if they are ready and wanting.

Part of the issue with the JHA for me is it is very part time. I know a lot have school footy and play NAB but it would be good to see the top age boys playing some games in the Essendon brand and maybe even doing more training with the VFL squad.

 

[Yoda_]

Basic idea. Possibly not really needed but would be a plus for the State league , particularly the VFL.
To stop clubs playing around with it too much you could do a few things things.
Starting point is obviously one priority pick per club from their state league side.
Pick is a rookie pick.
Only for players older than 20 at the start of January . Reason I added this is the Northern Clubs VFL sides play a number of their Academy players which they already have access to.
For players who play a full season of State League.
Clubs do not have the priority pick in the mid season draft. Only the rookie draft. Mid season draft still open to whoever nominates.
NGA or Academy players not involved which was never what I was thinking anyway. What we have now applies to them.

I would however like to see the Victorian Academy / NGA players / Father Sons play some games of VFL footy if they are physically ready. I think for those who are up to it 2 or 3 games at VFL level to go with what they are doing with NAB or School footy would be an advantage to them. No rule changes. Just play a few games if they are ready and wanting.

Part of the issue with the JHA for me is it is very part time. I know a lot have school footy and play NAB but it would be good to see the top age boys playing some games in the Essendon brand and maybe even doing more training with the VFL squad.

Pretty sure the Northern academy boys and father/sons have played NEAFL & now VFL games for years. Certainly helped get them up to speed of the state league. Would absolutely love it if we did the same thing.

 

[owen87]

What loophole is available ? And I am talking realistic. In reality we are talking about clubs sifting through players 80 to 120 in any given year.
There would be no obvious draft tampering as there is no way the AFL would sit by again and let a repeat of the NGA happen.

I think your latest post covered most of the obvious loopholes off anyway.

Just meant that if there's an ability for a club to offer (for example) a Tim Kelly a truckload of cash via a wealthy coterie members job opportunity, to entice him over so you can pick him up for peanuts, then some club will definitely find a way to use the loophole.

The AFL have often left obvious loopholes open, then get upset when a club uses them, then close the loophole after it's been taken advantage of so other clubs miss out, or remove what would otherwise be a reasonable option entirely.

IMO the goal should be to encourage clubs to nurture VFL / SANFL / WAFL talent that may take a couple of extra years to come on, and to take a chance on guys in that 23+ bracket that often get lost to AFL because they develop later, or don't understand what's required, so it helps to keep them in the system a bit longer, give them more opportunity for an AFL career, and hopefully, gives supporters a reason to keep engaged with the second tier side.

Nick Hind is the example that I like to use, given he played a couple of seasons for our VFL and was a third round selection as an 'older' draftee, EFC had put 'time' in to him and if I was to guess he was in the frame for our selection a few picks after St Kilda's where he went.

 

[ghostdog]

Both Daveys rampant in match sim yesterday apparently.

 

[Shermy]

Both Daveys rampant in match sim yesterday apparently.

Sen ******* sational

 

[nonamehack]

Sen ******* sational

I heard they were bog average and likely to be rookie selections only