Dogs_R_Us
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Erm King and Hansen were headhunted at the last minute. The assistants cupboard was bare. We didn’t have a lot of options. Hopefully they are on provisional contracts.
Autopsy Rolled over to Freo after leading by 41 at qtr time, what's wrong @ the kennel?
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grassman75
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I get the sentiment but 80s, 90s, 00s me is pretty happy to be saying in we have played 6 Elim finals in the 10s, 20s. Won two and won a flag.
Won't somebody think of Essendon...nah * them
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It was exactly the sort of presser I expected sadly. No answers, no self reflection. I'm sick of the themes and fairytale bulldust as well, I want a bloody gameplan, an end to playing hacks despite abysmal form, his stupid selection games and our (lack of) strategy and tactics, especially when the tide starts to turn.
Malthouse won a flag in 1994, gone by 1999, Matthews won in 1990, gone in 1996, Clarkson gone six years after his last flag. Blight two flags in three years and then gone. Pagan gone three years after his last flag.
Beveridge shouldn't be safe, he doesn't have a job for life and if he's still there next year, the heat needs to be turned right up to furnace levels. No more bull*, no more treating the side like it's your own personal plaything, no more project players from the VFL, no more stupid bloody tales - nobody gives a s*** Get serious or get out.
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grassman75
Norm Smith Medallist
Watch the ruck. English is more often than not contesting the tap which he more often than not loses, then he is the one backing up to rove the ball and get the clearance. The rest of them (Bont excepted) have run off waiting for him to handball it to them. It's a s**t structure. I've said it all year. Sweet is limited, but he's a true ruck. Just wish he had a few other skills
.
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Yes, but it's the manner of the losses, it's the complete failure of any Plan B, it's the softness, almost acceptance of defeat. The weak underbelly. Plenty of our 90s and 00s sides had none of that. There was pride in the jumper, like they actually gave a s***. Can't say the same about this current lot this morning.
I remember in 2003 we lost our first eight of something and Rohan Smith was on radio and his voice was breaking, he was in tears. This is a H&A match, but that's how much it meant to him. He bled for the club, for the jumper. How many can say the 22 that ran out last night do the same?
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My goodness, calm down everyone!
Our attacking best is clearly up there with the best in the comp, but our game style hasn’t evolved enough from last year and we have become a bit predictable. We can’t win it every year, and we just weren’t good enough.
We can’t doubt the players’ efforts. They busted a gut, and fell short. It’s because teams have done the analysis on us and run to the places our game plan is vulnerable to.
Things are never as good or as bad as they seem on the outline, the margin for perfection is so slim. The coach will know what needs to change, and they will make changes. It will be in playing group and
Some observations from me:
We virtually had a clean list, but weren’t good enough this year. That’s OK, it happens. I know it’s frustrating, but that’s footy. We can’t doubt the players’ or coaches’ effort, we were just the 9th best team in the comp in what has been a year with extraordinary top 8 team quality (I would include Carlton in that before they soiled the bed).
There are some names to consider if they’re in what we need anymore or can achieve heights of past glories: there are clearly about 10-12 on our list that need to be recycled out, which can’t happen in one season. I would export a bit of a rebuild to start now so we can have another tilt in 3-4 years before our current middle aged stars become too old
Our attacking best is clearly up there with the best in the comp, but our game style hasn’t evolved enough from last year and we have become a bit predictable. We can’t win it every year, and we just weren’t good enough.
We can’t doubt the players’ efforts. They busted a gut, and fell short. It’s because teams have done the analysis on us and run to the places our game plan is vulnerable to.
Things are never as good or as bad as they seem on the outline, the margin for perfection is so slim. The coach will know what needs to change, and they will make changes. It will be in playing group and
Some observations from me:
- we have looked poor on the HBF and wings all year. Hunter, Crozier, Williams, Daniel, and to a degree Treloar isn’t effective in attack in recent times, and is very weak defensively.
- forward line has more or less been effective, but we have a tendency to have mr fixits in important roles too often (West, Roarke Smith, JJ, Darcy, to name a few). That could be forced, or by design, but I think it isn’t the hallmark of a consistent champion team.
- clearly deficient in KPB roles against a monster, but frankly the speed at which the ball comes as teams pick us apart on the wings means they seldom stand a chance. Gardner and Cordy have probably out performed in reality
- Bont, McCrae, Libba combo still effective but in reality it is beginning to be an ageing group. Dunkley, Treloar and Smith rotating through is not consistently effective yet
We virtually had a clean list, but weren’t good enough this year. That’s OK, it happens. I know it’s frustrating, but that’s footy. We can’t doubt the players’ or coaches’ effort, we were just the 9th best team in the comp in what has been a year with extraordinary top 8 team quality (I would include Carlton in that before they soiled the bed).
There are some names to consider if they’re in what we need anymore or can achieve heights of past glories: there are clearly about 10-12 on our list that need to be recycled out, which can’t happen in one season. I would export a bit of a rebuild to start now so we can have another tilt in 3-4 years before our current middle aged stars become too old
Dogs_R_Us
Space Traveller
Come on, we’re not at Essendon or Carlton level…. yet
grassman75
Norm Smith Medallist
Are you reading something into that photo that I don't like...
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I have no desire to follow this club next year. I felt more invested in 2018 than I felt this year. It's sad that Bont didn't get to play through a more successful period.
Dogs_r_barking
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The thing is, if you are going to recruit VFL level players, than you need to beef up the football department with a lot more coaches and specialised coach’s. An example of this is Geelong, very average players on their list like Close, Atkins etc but with good coaching they become part of a good system.
We are recruiting B grade players, but not spending enough in our football department to develop them. This also goes for our young players in JUH and Darcy.
We are recruiting B grade players, but not spending enough in our football department to develop them. This also goes for our young players in JUH and Darcy.
Your synopsis has made me feel even worse about our situation. If we're 3 or 4 years away from competing we need a new coach to start the work. Bevo does not get 3 or 4 years.
Na just posted it as it was Dunks.
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If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.
It’s my fault! 41 points up and I said to my girls - this will be worse than just losing because we will have to watch them have it and then give it away.
Sorry……but the way they have played this year is downhill the players that hold the line when the other team adjusts are just not there. In 2016 we had Morris, Boyd, Picken who would stay calm but lift with aggression and fight. Who is that today? We talk about stars but it is much more about a it’s the ground leadership. Really only Libba, Duryea and Bont and two of them out.
What went wrong - hundreds of posts about these so just a summary:
- VDM had easily his worst game - I think he could be a decent player but he is still fumbling under pressure and so with the pressure up he cracked. Dropped chest mark when Freo was coming was a symbol of where he is at. Has lost that mongrel he had also but not alone. West must have signed somewhere else to not be picked above him - especially with JJ providing the speed. If not West then would have played García who can also make errors but is much harder and get the ball.
- Freo defenders play from behind and then use hands and shoulders to push defenders in the lower back/arse area. It’s mostly illegal but harder to see than the high pushes/arm holds It pissed our players off but we don’t admit by lowering the entries or coining in further.
- Big three forwards did not work for each other - one needed to push back against the Freo shovers and At least bring to ground but even when we did Weightman and VDM had no influence or goal sense.
- Big Darce was a risk. Bruce had been playing poorly but his size and experience and inability to be pushed off so easily was needed and a dumb call.
- the plan to isolate Richards worked beautifully for the Doggers - we didn’t adjust and he lost confidence - when he got run down he was not even running fast just looked uncertain. We tried to move Dale to Walters and release him but it did not work. We were are really weak in the small defender role. I reckon Scott would have been a better choice - Williams did some good things but we were too slow in defence. So sad that Crozier has dropped off. Don’t know how many defensive marks (or any marks) we took but it can’t have been many.
- Pouring rain / soft surface and we wear short stops - falling over everywhere like that so dumb.
- English got beaten up again when it counted but partially because without Bruce he could not rest. Freo got back into it when he took his first test and we put Cordy in - then had to try Darcy but give the kid a break - 4th game and had not even been playing ruck.
- Freo increased the speed of game and new it would blow us up - we have so little speed. But it was a gear they pulled to try and run us off our feet and it worked so easily.
- Looks pretty certain we lose Dunkley and probably West - two of our harder players.
I won’t live my life negative - that’s for sooks - so positives:
- Duryea and Libba in we win - they had Fyfe out so probably cancels one out but would still be enough to have made the distance. The timing of two of our most experienced hardest nuts was terrible - can’t blame injuries but they are both pivotal players and that hurt us
- For most of the game we reduced the stupid stand off but in the last quarter and a half Freo started to pick us off easily and we seemed to lose form
- Too slow but each of the tall defenders did OK for most or the match. For a little while it looked like we got Chief back but then he ended up making three extraordinary errors in a few minutes and opened us up. Wasn’t as bad as I thought they would be.
- as one poster said in a year with JUH, Darcy and Naughty - Hopefully fully fit Bruce and they don’t drop the many marks they got their hands on. JUH got into good positions against good blocking defence and our others need to get out of his way. Darcy had a shocker but shouldn’t be on him - he will be a star and will be special.
- JJ was good - we have missed his class.
- McLean was outstanding in the first quarter - he is a very good player and we will need him to replace Dunkley. He then dropped off a cliff which is not surprising but a full preseason and he will be back flying next year.
- I help West stays but if not García will bring the speed and agility we need around the ball. After a long time out he just needs to settle
- TOB has stunk it up but hopefully Khamis or Cleary can take that role. Raak is someone I really like - he is a Morris/Grimes like competitor- he puts in 10kgs like Morris did Early - watches 10 hours of Dale Morris per day and he will also press for the important third tall defender. Not sure they had an obvious match up tonight but playing three 195 plus defenders hurt us.
- Jones adds to this and not sure he is the solution but can mark and can beat his opponent like Pearce and Cox can both do. He makes us better. When was last time we saw a tall defender genuinely beat their opponent? was Keath last year but he has dropped right off but that is it. If we can add Logue then we will be much better off. TOB has one year in his contract so will need to get what we can out of him but doesn’t look promising.
Sorry……but the way they have played this year is downhill the players that hold the line when the other team adjusts are just not there. In 2016 we had Morris, Boyd, Picken who would stay calm but lift with aggression and fight. Who is that today? We talk about stars but it is much more about a it’s the ground leadership. Really only Libba, Duryea and Bont and two of them out.
What went wrong - hundreds of posts about these so just a summary:
- VDM had easily his worst game - I think he could be a decent player but he is still fumbling under pressure and so with the pressure up he cracked. Dropped chest mark when Freo was coming was a symbol of where he is at. Has lost that mongrel he had also but not alone. West must have signed somewhere else to not be picked above him - especially with JJ providing the speed. If not West then would have played García who can also make errors but is much harder and get the ball.
- Freo defenders play from behind and then use hands and shoulders to push defenders in the lower back/arse area. It’s mostly illegal but harder to see than the high pushes/arm holds It pissed our players off but we don’t admit by lowering the entries or coining in further.
- Big three forwards did not work for each other - one needed to push back against the Freo shovers and At least bring to ground but even when we did Weightman and VDM had no influence or goal sense.
- Big Darce was a risk. Bruce had been playing poorly but his size and experience and inability to be pushed off so easily was needed and a dumb call.
- the plan to isolate Richards worked beautifully for the Doggers - we didn’t adjust and he lost confidence - when he got run down he was not even running fast just looked uncertain. We tried to move Dale to Walters and release him but it did not work. We were are really weak in the small defender role. I reckon Scott would have been a better choice - Williams did some good things but we were too slow in defence. So sad that Crozier has dropped off. Don’t know how many defensive marks (or any marks) we took but it can’t have been many.
- Pouring rain / soft surface and we wear short stops - falling over everywhere like that so dumb.
- English got beaten up again when it counted but partially because without Bruce he could not rest. Freo got back into it when he took his first test and we put Cordy in - then had to try Darcy but give the kid a break - 4th game and had not even been playing ruck.
- Freo increased the speed of game and new it would blow us up - we have so little speed. But it was a gear they pulled to try and run us off our feet and it worked so easily.
- Looks pretty certain we lose Dunkley and probably West - two of our harder players.
I won’t live my life negative - that’s for sooks - so positives:
- Duryea and Libba in we win - they had Fyfe out so probably cancels one out but would still be enough to have made the distance. The timing of two of our most experienced hardest nuts was terrible - can’t blame injuries but they are both pivotal players and that hurt us
- For most of the game we reduced the stupid stand off but in the last quarter and a half Freo started to pick us off easily and we seemed to lose form
- Too slow but each of the tall defenders did OK for most or the match. For a little while it looked like we got Chief back but then he ended up making three extraordinary errors in a few minutes and opened us up. Wasn’t as bad as I thought they would be.
- as one poster said in a year with JUH, Darcy and Naughty - Hopefully fully fit Bruce and they don’t drop the many marks they got their hands on. JUH got into good positions against good blocking defence and our others need to get out of his way. Darcy had a shocker but shouldn’t be on him - he will be a star and will be special.
- JJ was good - we have missed his class.
- McLean was outstanding in the first quarter - he is a very good player and we will need him to replace Dunkley. He then dropped off a cliff which is not surprising but a full preseason and he will be back flying next year.
- I help West stays but if not García will bring the speed and agility we need around the ball. After a long time out he just needs to settle
- TOB has stunk it up but hopefully Khamis or Cleary can take that role. Raak is someone I really like - he is a Morris/Grimes like competitor- he puts in 10kgs like Morris did Early - watches 10 hours of Dale Morris per day and he will also press for the important third tall defender. Not sure they had an obvious match up tonight but playing three 195 plus defenders hurt us.
- Jones adds to this and not sure he is the solution but can mark and can beat his opponent like Pearce and Cox can both do. He makes us better. When was last time we saw a tall defender genuinely beat their opponent? was Keath last year but he has dropped right off but that is it. If we can add Logue then we will be much better off. TOB has one year in his contract so will need to get what we can out of him but doesn’t look promising.
- mostly I want to see us get our mojo back. There is no feeling of positive power we used to have - you can see it on the field, how Bevo talks and even how we sing the song. We used to scream it now we just finish. As kids it was about belief and no ceiling as we get older and the expectations change it can fall to not making mistakes and this negative kills you - see Collingwood efforts to be winners - if we can fix this we are contenders - the situation we are in today is not about our list it is about how we function as a team
- We need to get better coaching from winners - when we had ex Geelong coaches they all radiated winning and not just doing your role but beating your opponent - loving and wanting every contest and f’s sake get Bob back into the coaching ranks - he is a big part of this and we should never have let someone like him go.
We can’t really afford to think like that though, otherwise we’ll be right back down the bottom.
Sometimes two things can be true at the same time depending how you want to look at it:
2 x Grand Finals with 1 premiership. Obviously fantastic. But when you look at the flip side:
Never made top 4
In our Grand Final loss, we gave up a 8 point HT lead and a 19 point lead half way through the 3rd, to go on and suffer the worst second half GF deficit, ever
2-4 record in elimination finals. In 3 of those 4, we went in as favourites.
Of the 4th elimination loss, last night, we gave up a 41 point lead where we would have been $1.07 in live betting.
We have lost so many best 22 players under his watch, a lot due to him mismanaging them, and we are about to likely loss 2 more in JJ and Dunks (these two aren’t due to Bevo although you could argue rucking Dunks didn’t help).
While I’m extremely disappointed in some of the players last night (Naughton and English failed in finals, again and Baz was shocking), the above is enough body of work for me to suggest we need to move on from Bevo. He’s stabilised us, which I’m grateful for, but there is now a significant amount of evidence that he gets outcoached more often than not in big games.
_Mike_
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I think it comes down to accepting the reality that the list is nowhere near the quality we believe it to be. There’s a number of b/c grade players getting games that more than likely wouldn’t anywhere else.
Yeah they scraped into the finals thanks to Carlton’s capitulation but unless someone takes ownership for the current situation they’ll be in the same predicament next year and we’ll be lamenting another season of missed opportunities.
You could now argue that the window has effectively been shut with this list and they’ll need a rebuild.
Yeah they scraped into the finals thanks to Carlton’s capitulation but unless someone takes ownership for the current situation they’ll be in the same predicament next year and we’ll be lamenting another season of missed opportunities.
You could now argue that the window has effectively been shut with this list and they’ll need a rebuild.
grassman75
Norm Smith Medallist
I still don't have an answer to what was paid against Daniel
Dog 36
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That is what I’m still trying to work out
CD never took possession he jumped up to get the ball
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As many of you have posted, being 41 points up I just knew we wouldn’t hold on. To let Freo kick 4 unanswered goals like that in the 2nd quarter is just so so typical of this team since the grand final.
The game plan is so flawed and we can’t adapt to the situation. However it is so obvious there is a complete lack of on field leadership and effort. Look at the pies and see how many players who aren’t veterans stand up like Maynard etc.
We have so many passengers who are clearly bevos favourites. Anyone on this forum that says Vandermeer is upto it needs to take a good hard look at themselves. He runs around out of position, barely tackles and panics with the ball.
Weightman is average. He has these 5 goal games in a season then goes missing for weeks. He needs to learn his role and not try and take mark of the century everytime the ball comes into the forward line.
The forward line structure is terrible, this is purely a coaching deficit… all 3 forwards go for the same ball plus weightman, meaning if no one marks it were immediately outnumbered by the opposition.
I may have rose coloured glasses on but I do think there is enough talent on the list for us to have success but we are crying out for some mature leadership on field. Also, the coaching panel needs serious upgrades and Bevo needs to be held accountable.
The game plan is so flawed and we can’t adapt to the situation. However it is so obvious there is a complete lack of on field leadership and effort. Look at the pies and see how many players who aren’t veterans stand up like Maynard etc.
We have so many passengers who are clearly bevos favourites. Anyone on this forum that says Vandermeer is upto it needs to take a good hard look at themselves. He runs around out of position, barely tackles and panics with the ball.
Weightman is average. He has these 5 goal games in a season then goes missing for weeks. He needs to learn his role and not try and take mark of the century everytime the ball comes into the forward line.
The forward line structure is terrible, this is purely a coaching deficit… all 3 forwards go for the same ball plus weightman, meaning if no one marks it were immediately outnumbered by the opposition.
I may have rose coloured glasses on but I do think there is enough talent on the list for us to have success but we are crying out for some mature leadership on field. Also, the coaching panel needs serious upgrades and Bevo needs to be held accountable.
Dogs_r_barking
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I don’t think we need a rebuild, but definitely a freshen up.
A couple of big strong defenders would stabilise the defence. Better coaching of our forwards, we have the talent there but what a dogs breakfast.
Lobb sharing ruck duties with English, will stop us throwing defenders and forwards into the ruck.
Duryea, is great at organising the defence, Bruce the forward line, Libba the midfield, it would have all made a difference.
A couple of big strong defenders would stabilise the defence. Better coaching of our forwards, we have the talent there but what a dogs breakfast.
Lobb sharing ruck duties with English, will stop us throwing defenders and forwards into the ruck.
Duryea, is great at organising the defence, Bruce the forward line, Libba the midfield, it would have all made a difference.
Its all about poor ball movement starting from the stoppages and back half. We dont have enough players who are willing to run in support, take on tacklers and get the ball moving forward at speed. From defence or from the midfield.
Moving the ball directly and with speed deep into our forward line will give the forwards a better chance, and the opposition cant score when the ball is down there.
Our shuffle-back zone, win the ball, kick around the boundary style of play is what is holding us back.
Moving the ball directly and with speed deep into our forward line will give the forwards a better chance, and the opposition cant score when the ball is down there.
Our shuffle-back zone, win the ball, kick around the boundary style of play is what is holding us back.
Dog 36
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Add to this our ruck situation and it is a perfect summary
Tim English not standing the mark led to the 50 VDM gave away. Why did English not stand the mark? was it solely a mistake on his behalf or were our players instructed to not stand the mark? Because based on what we saw throughout the year I believe its the latter and that alone is why we need a new coach. It's just inexplicable that we would back off the mark in an elimination final when someone is having a shot for goal from that distance. I don't understand.
Al dente
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Cam Zurhaar would help
