NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[H2F]

Anyway what will happen is clear as day.

Hawks will be found guilty of wrong doing, there will be a scapegoat. Compensation for those involved. Clarko’s name sullied along with Fagan, but they’ll keep their jobs and the potential to really learn from this will be lost in the AFL’s desire to make it be over.

Essendon will hire James Hird and say they dodged a bullet (LOL) whilst North win a flag before they win a final.

 

[Royce Hafey]

I will bite, solely in responding to these sentences and taking it on face value.

Trying to save is one of the arguments used in regards to the stolen generation and one put forth by the Putin regime, as examples. Right intention does not make right action, so it is the actions we need to consider not the intent.

"A kid spiraling down a bad path" is an assessment of a situation. Someone screaming out for help when another is visibly attacking them is very different from someone who is happily drinking themselves to oblivion every night down the pub. What was the assessment based on is a key question: if it was an assessment based on their cultural/socioeconomic values of what is a bad path then with a minority group who didn't share the same values it could be considered discrimination. If it was assessment based on whether said kid would be of value to their enterprise or not it takes a very different flavour.

"Went too far" implies legitimacy in the actions in the first place but even if there was legitimacy going too far is never an acceptable excuse. There are boundaries in all aspects of life, knowledge of those boundaries is expected, particularly in the case of such high level/paid positions we are discussing.

"Overstepping their duties" flies only if those involved had any particular duties in regards to the persons or matters discussed. I suspect this will become a key issue going forward. It may be the AFL is different from almost all the other employment situations I can imagine and supposedly do have or have assumed some duties in the areas considered. Inherent with this, though, is the establishment of appropriate boundaries. Failure to establish is poor governance. Fail to practice is something else again.

Yes. Also, it's important to remember with the Stolen Generation that the whole "saving them from a bad situation" argument had various incarnations. Up until the Second World War it was all fairly explicitly about eugenics. It was Neville of the Rabbit Proof Fence stuff about breeding out blackness. One of the ironies of Australian racism is that "miscegenation", the bogey of the American South, was actually promoted by racists in Australia - hence the targeting by Neville of "half castes". The "bad situation" in this way was simply being Aboriginal. Hence the banning of speaking languages or any other cultural practice. The policy of "assimilation", official policy (with migrants as well) well into the 1970s, continued this idea. Though the rhetoric of eugenics, "racial hygiene" and so on were gradually dropped after WWII because certain events during that war had made them a bit unpopular.

The whole thing about "the girls were being turned into "gins" by white stockmen, so we were doing them a favour" was always part of the justification for the stealing of kids, especially by the police constables who had to do the dirty work of hunting out the kids. It was the only way they could justify to themselves what they were doing. And, of course, increasingly, that sort of explanation replaced the old eugenics. It also had a new lease of life during the Northern Territory Intervention when you had a manufactured scare about paedophilia in Aboriginal communities being used as an excuse for what was in practice a land grab to smooth the way for mining companies.

You can approach this by trying to analyse and empathise with the view of the people "stealing the children"/separating the families. You can try to get into their heads to try and understand why they did what they did. If you're empathetic enough you may even end up thinking that they were good blokes.

You can hope that they've learned from their mistakes and be even better blokes in the future.

Or you can recognise that "good blokes" who are earning massive bucks to win premierships who are willing to do whatever it takes to win those premierships, from tactical stuff, to photo opportunities, to carefully choreographed acts of charity, to f#%king over the lives of fringe indigenous players who've been drafted as speculative prospects because "what's there to lose?" are just the latest version of "assimilation", of trying to turn Aboriginal players into white people, or if that isn't possible, turning "bad Aboriginals" into "good Aboriginals".

 

[Demons09]

Anyway what will happen is clear as day.

Hawks will be found guilty of wrong doing, there will be a scapegoat. Compensation for those involved. Clarko’s name sullied along with Fagan, but they’ll keep their jobs and the potential to really learn from this will be lost in the AFL’s desire to make it be over.

Essendon will hire James Hird and say they dodged a bullet (LOL) whilst North win a flag before they win a final.

I’ll wait to hear their side of the story and whether the accusations are true, but if there’s even only a small portion thats true there won’t be scape goats they’re faarked.

 

[Saint]

I’ll wait to hear their side of the story and whether the accusations are true, but if there’s even only small a portion thats true there won’t be scape goats they’re faarked.

One would think that there should have been a response to the ABC story. Anything other than a categorical denial would be unacceptable, so why didn't they do that from the start? Was Brisbane's PR team taking two days off? Clarko didn't have access to North's PR team? Or they didn't want to lie to their new employers, as the first question asked, which would need an honest answer is: "are the allegations true?"

When you hear 3 stories so similar from multiple different parties, the goose is almost cooked.

The only thing I can think of which might save Clarko's reputation is if 10+ white players come out and say the same thing happened to them. Then Clarko is just an a-hole who doesn't know his job, not a racist a-hole who doesn't know his job.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Anyway what will happen is clear as day.

Hawks will be found guilty of wrong doing, there will be a scapegoat. Compensation for those involved. Clarko’s name sullied along with Fagan, but they’ll keep their jobs and the potential to really learn from this will be lost in the AFL’s desire to make it be over.

Essendon will hire James Hird and say they dodged a bullet (LOL) whilst North win a flag before they win a final.

If this is proven to be true Clarkson has about the same chance of coaching again as hird does coaching essendon.

And that’s sweet * all

 

[jenny61_99]

allegedly coercing a player to abort a child to win a game of football is far more outrageous.

That is far more egregious than just being s**t at your job.

Let’s not be mistaken here… BOTH OF THESE SCENARIOS are equally s**t.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Let’s not be mistaken here… BOTH OF THESE SCENARIOS are equally s**t.

One is far worse than the other. I don’t need to tell you which.

 

[H2F]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/hawthorn/hawthorn-racism-investigation-afl-coaches-association-makes-panel-request/news-story/7237d788015857ff8aa6515e41f3c278

 

[H2F]

Interesting turn of events. What do those who weren’t interested in Clarko or Fagans side of the story think now?

 

[campbell]

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/hawthorn/hawthorn-racism-investigation-afl-coaches-association-makes-panel-request/news-story/7237d788015857ff8aa6515e41f3c278

Why should they get someone on the panel?

 

[campbell]

Interesting turn of events. What do those who weren’t interested in Clarko or Fagans side of the story think now?

Behind a paywall, whats the gist of it all please?

 

[jj15]

I dont agree that the termination comment is all that matters......Its the worst allegation obviously, but the primary issue is the alleged forcing of players to chose football over their partners. That is the common theme of all 3 allegations. The Rioli's have also alluded to this, so thats 8 people who may report that to the panel.
Its not a 100% proof that is required. We have been over this. Its the balance of probabilities. Will 8 people saying that people within the club forced players to choose their football over their partners carry more weight than 3 denying it?...yes it will. Thats how the balance of probabilities works. You only have to be leaning more toward true than false. It doesnt need to be 100%, 75% or even 55%....just more probable that something occurred than that it didnt occur.

From seve

What a selfish and extremely ignorant and culturally insensitive attitude to take.

And also a strawman's argument as well.

Face facts, unless there is overwhelming and conclusive evidence that the allegations about Clarkson/Fagan and others involved in this unsavoury time at the Hawthorn Football Club has proven to be decisively untrue/proven untrue, all offending parties like Clarkson and Fagan will be fired from their jobs and hopefully blacklisted for life


It's (99 %) likely to be over for Clarko and his tenure at the NMFC Footy club as coach.
I hate saying this, as I am one of the very few neutral fans here who goes into bat for North (I believe you got screwed over in the recent priority pick request) but this issue transcends anything to do with any specific football club (aside from Hawthorn) and everything to do with the individuals involved and how many lives and families were forever damaged by these allegations (if proven true)

Do you think the allegations will stand up in a court of law? If so I’m shocked at how easily it must be to prove guilt.

 

[Gralin]

Behind a paywall, whats the gist of it all please?

AFL website has an article as well posted earlier

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[H2F]

Behind a paywall, whats the gist of it all please?

The First Nations families who have made allegations against ex-Hawthorn coaches have serious reservations about being interviewed as part of an independent investigation into the claims.
Five days on from the allegations that rocked the AFL the league is still navigating the sensitivities of assembling a four-person panel to investigate the claims that if proved could see ex-Hawks figures banned from the game.

The families involved want to drive change and force accountability for what they see as serious issues at Hawthorn, but believe they have already told Hawthorn review author Phil Egan and ABC journalist Russell Jackson their stories in graphic detail.

 

[H2F]

Do you think the allegations will stand up in a court of law? If so I’m shocked at how easily it must be to prove guilt.

Nope

The First Nations families who have made allegations against ex-Hawthorn coaches have serious reservations about being interviewed as part of an independent investigation into the claims.
Five days on from the allegations that rocked the AFL the league is still navigating the sensitivities of assembling a four-person panel to investigate the claims that if proved could see ex-Hawks figures banned from the game.

The families involved want to drive change and force accountability for what they see as serious issues at Hawthorn, but believe they have already told Hawthorn review author Phil Egan and ABC journalist Russell Jackson their stories in graphic detail.

 

[Royce Hafey]

Do you think the allegations will stand up in a court of law? If so I’m shocked at how easily it must be to prove guilt.

It's not a criminal prosecution, so it may not be "beyond reasonable doubt". If it's "balance of probabilities"...

 

[jj15]

It's not a criminal prosecution, so it may not be "beyond reasonable doubt". If it's "balance of probabilities"...

Yer but do you think Clarkson, Burt and Fagan won’t take it further?
I mean I would if I felt I was wrongly accused and didn’t want to agree to any wrong doing. I would not accept anything I felt I didn’t do.
To determine the balance of doubt then every player coached by these men from this era need to be interviewed.

 

[Royce Hafey]

Nope

The First Nations families who have made allegations against ex-Hawthorn coaches have serious reservations about being interviewed as part of an independent investigation into the claims.
Five days on from the allegations that rocked the AFL the league is still navigating the sensitivities of assembling a four-person panel to investigate the claims that if proved could see ex-Hawks figures banned from the game.

The families involved want to drive change and force accountability for what they see as serious issues at Hawthorn, but believe they have already told Hawthorn review author Phil Egan and ABC journalist Russell Jackson their stories in graphic detail.

It was already stated that some of the ex-players are on suicide watch because of the trauma. The whole idea of being involved in the process of reliving it, not to mention that there may be counter-attacks on them based on what's happened to them since...that they're into drugs, that they're flaky. I can believe that they don't want any more of it. Frankly it makes me sick. And f$%king angry.

 

[Gralin]

Nope

The First Nations families who have made allegations against ex-Hawthorn coaches have serious reservations about being interviewed as part of an independent investigation into the claims.
Five days on from the allegations that rocked the AFL the league is still navigating the sensitivities of assembling a four-person panel to investigate the claims that if proved could see ex-Hawks figures banned from the game.

The families involved want to drive change and force accountability for what they see as serious issues at Hawthorn, but believe they have already told Hawthorn review author Phil Egan and ABC journalist Russell Jackson their stories in graphic detail.

Yes they've already told their stories and relived their trauma, why should they have to tell it again to different people?

 

[Anja_Nees]

Ok Clarko’s gone now.

 

[Gralin]

It was already stated that some of the ex-players are on suicide watch because of the trauma. The whole idea of being involved in the process of reliving it, not to mention that there may be counter-attacks on them based on what's happened to them since...that they're into drugs, that they're flaky. I can believe that they don't want any more of it. Frankly it makes me sick. And f$%king angry.

Yeah but the herald sun will leave that part out because they've got a chance to s**t on Indigenous people in defence of a white man

 

[noideaatall]

Really.

So twenty years of having endless care and passion for his players means zip, over the stories told from the perspective of a troubled person. And yes he attempted his own life the poor thing (5 times I think I read). I just believe that sometimes you can have the best of intentions and that actually f**ks you more than if you just don’t care.

If I’m right and Clarko tried his best, albeit was too hard or informant of cultural challenges at the time FFS isn’t the report to teach us, not destroy people. Good luck having other clubs run these things transparently moving forward.

There is a simple principle that has been around far longer than the time period of this report, in regard to working with people in a management, educational, therapeutic or medical environment Do no harm.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I’m sorry what? We know because of his record, statements from his current club would go to suggest the record to.

I'd suggest that doesn't equate to "knowing" anything.

There are countless examples of 'great people' actually being compete arseholes.

 

[Festerz]

Why should they get someone on the panel?

Who funds the AFL Coaches Association to represent the interest of coaches ? That would be the AFL wouldn't it?

Who funds the AFL Players' Association to represent the interests of players? That would be the AFL wouldn't it?

Who funds the AFL integrity Dept.? That would be the AFL wouldn't it?

Who is going to appoint the panel members to the AFL 'Independent' Inquiry? That would be the AFL wouldn't it?

Who is going to set the scope and terms of reference for the 'Independent' Inquiry? That would be the AFL wouldn't it?

And who was the first person the AFL appointed for their 'Independent' Inquiry? That would be the Legal Counsel to represent and protect the AFL's interests wouldn't it?

And now we hear that the First Nations families who have made allegations against ex-Hawthorn coaches have serious reservations about being interviewed as part of the AFL's independent investigation into their claims.

Colour me shocked!

 

[Noidnadroj]

i think you may have read into it more than i wrote it....

I certainly didn't say Clarkson allegedly said get an abortion or i want play you. But if you think Clarkson didn't give the advice based on winning games of footy than sorry, but that's delusional.

What if the player asked the question “What gives me the best chance of getting a game and establishing a career in the AFL?”. And Clarkson said “If you really want to give yourself the best chance of a career with Hawthorn, then as a young man with off-field issues already in play including an inability thus far to commit yourself to the required levels of training and discipline to be an AFL player, I’d recommend an abortion”.

This doesn’t necessarily make it right, but entirely unsolicited and unwelcome advice to abort the baby (as reported) is completely different from genuinely honest advice given in response to a question.

Again, who knows why it was said and in response to what question … if any. But context is pretty vital in knowing whether it was a horrendously cruel comment, a heartless comment, an insensitive comment, a well intentioned comment or something altogether different again ….. I think anyone no matter their current opinions can accept that.




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