NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[jj15]

he wasn’t delisted due to his english skills.

Yer I can’t see where Fagan says he was either. I see where he emphasises that it is difficult if you can’t speak in English.

 

[Makeshift Park]

The most esteemed and respected Court of all - the Court of BF.

Empanelling jurors from the BF pool would be quite the entertaining process.

“So let me get this straight.
You’ve been fanatically following every minutiae of the accused’s performance for more than a decade.
You literally spend most of your spare time opining about his various follies vis-a-vis his opponents.
Your world is essentially constructed through irrational tribal loyalties and hostilities determined by whether or not you support the man.
Your judgement is ultimately as skewed and partial as one could possibly imagine.
Sounds perfect. Welcome aboard!”

 

[kingswood71]

One of the players it seems was involved was a deeply troubled young man who despite his prodigious talent was overlooked by all 18 teams in his first draft attempt. Seemingly no one wasn’t to take a chance on him. After an excellent year with the WAFL Hawthorn drafted him after a couple of rounds. It is not unreasonable to presume that if Hawthorn didn’t no one else was going to. Which incidentally doesn’t seem very racist to me.

During his brief time at Hawthorn he admitted to using meth, and engaging in other criminal behaviour to feed his addiction. After a short period of time he up and left back to WA where he’s been in and out of jail ever since.

Now before anyone accuses me of a smear, this is all a matter of historical record. I haven’t named the player (though others in here have), and obviously if it isn’t him this is irrelevant.

But if it is him, irrespective of the veracity of Clarko’s comments, it seems a stretch to blame him or the Hawks for all of this young man’s subsequent issues.

Have you read the ABC report?
Ian: from the info in the report, was at the club for well over 18 months....38week pregnancy.....still there 6 months later when she fell pregnant again.
Zac: "A few seasons into his career, he believed he was on the right track, developing and progressing as a player."
Liam: "but for Liam's second season she left the safety net of her family and moved to Melbourne"

 

[mcnulty]

Have you read the ABC report?
Ian: from the info in the report, was at the club for well over 18 months....38week pregnancy.....still there 6 months later when she feel pregnant again.
Zac: "A few seasons into his career, he believed he was on the right track, developing and progressing as a player."
Liam: "but for Liam's second season she left the safety net of her family and moved to Melbourne"

I’d prefer to rely on the findings of the official review, but concede my mail could be wrong. Post deleted.

Regardless, comparisons with the Catholic Church seem something of a stretch.

 

[Dangerousfield]

Pretty simple, did this happen? did this not happen? Either the players aren't telling the truth or Clarko/Fagan/Hawks aren't telling the truth.

Fail to see how at the end of the AFL 'process' one side or the other can't be labelled as dishonest liars.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Pretty simple, did this happen? did this not happen? Either the players aren't telling the truth or Clarko/Fagan/Hawks aren't telling the truth.

Fail to see how at the end of the AFL 'process' one side or the other can't be labelled as dishonest liars.

would be nice if things were so black and white and you always were able to conclusively prove exactly who did what 10 years ago.

 

[The_Ru]

Pretty simple, did this happen? did this not happen? Either the players aren't telling the truth or Clarko/Fagan/Hawks aren't telling the truth.

Fail to see how at the end of the AFL 'process' one side or the other can't be labelled as dishonest liars.

It might be a lot messier than that. The line the AFLCA are taking hints at a “it happened, but…” justification of some sort.

I feel like this is potentially going to be a very significant reckoning of the AFL’s culture and norms. A lot of stuff that coaches have thought is normal and ok might be about to be heavily scrutinized. This thread suggests some people will side with the coaches no matter how egregious the scenario.

 

[Neddwellyn]

he wasn’t delisted due to his english skills.

This may be the case. However, in the article referrred to, it is the soul reason Fagan cites for his delisting. If you are indeed correct, is it possible this makes Fagan’s comments even more troubling?

 

[Mitchell Madness]

There was also this issue at Hawthorn

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/young-employee-accuses-afl-club-hawthorn-of-discrimination/news-story/1528fec550cbd399cb61db65f360bf8f

She was given leave with pay for her treatment, then was offered the chance to transition into another role after she didn't want to return to full time duties

he wasn’t delisted due to his english skills.

Exactly.
He didn't want to stay in the city, and kept working for the club in talent identification in remote areas

 

[kingswood71]

would be nice if things were so black and white and you always were able to conclusively prove exactly who did what 10 years ago.

I concur with this.
I dont agree that Clarkson nor Fagan are card carrying members of the KKK. I do however think its highly probable that the common element of the 3 allegations (footy over partners) is true. The grey area is somewhere between how each party interpreted it all.
I also dont agree that people should be hung out to dry, rather all people should learn from it and vow to avoid similar issues moving forward.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

She was given leave with pay for her treatment, then was offered the chance to transition into another role after she didn't want to return to full time duties

Exactly.
He didn't want to stay in the city, and kept working for the club in talent identification in remote areas

i dont think that's the issue though?

it appears her issue is that she was mislead about returning to her original role part time.

There's no issue with Hawthorn re deploying her within the company, that's pretty standard practice so you dont have to make someone redundant. But if someone at the club said she could return to her original role part time (following her treatment), than reneged on it is a much different thing.

I think this is the women's complaint.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Can’t help but notice the difference in reporting from the AFL media compared to “the camp”.

Adelaide’s situation had months of daily speculation, calls for massive fines, stripping draft picks etc.

Now that it’s the Hawks, there is much less coverage and speculation, and lots of terms like “due process” and “two sides to the story” being thrown around which in the previous situation were completely absent.

Do AFL House push this because it’s a big Victorian team, or are there just too many in the media who dislike the Crows?

I think there are differences.

The Crows camp thing always had a tabloid vibe to it, which drew people in. The club also didn't help, with their weird secrecy and defiant denials. The public also was baying for the Collective Minds guys due to their general floggishness.

But the Hawthorn one feels much less tabloid, and more sinister in nature. Hawthorn, and the AFL up until this point, have been very transparent about it. This often halts the blood lust.

But having said that, I don't doubt that the AFL treats 'big clubs' in Victoria differently to how they treat others. They also are fanbois at heart, and tippy toe around high profile coaches and players. Burton and Pike were not only quite dis-likable, they were also largely nobodies compared to Clarkson, and Fagan. Easy targets, and perfect scapegoats for the AFL to hang out to dry.

The AFL will do their sums, and assess which outcome suits them best. Like with Hird and the doping saga, if it means they need a high profile head on a spike, then Clarkson is screwed. If they think there'd be less fallout by sweeping this under the rug rather than losing an iconic coach of the game and a current AFL coach - then that's what they'll do. It won't be about what's right, or just. It will be about the best outcome for the AFL. I think we all know that.

The AFL media already seems to be working towards that.



FWIW, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Clarkson cop it, and Fagan survive. Fagan is already publicly rolling with the 'good bloke' defence, and I can feel that that is being accepted largely. This will mean that the AFL don't have screw Brisbane over, and they don't have to knife a current member of the AFL boy's club.
By knifing Clarkson and making him the face of it, it's a pretty easy fix really. They get a 'big name', which they'll use to the show everyone how serious they are about racism. It only screws North over, whom they couldn't care less about anyway. And they can easily start leaking footage on all their platforms of him coward punching guys, putting his hand through walls and berating journalists to frame him as a s**t bloke. He's not currently in the game, so it's easier to keep him out of it than it is to push people out that are currently in it.

They'll fine Hawthorn, for an amount that sounds big but will ensure there won't actually be any material damage done. These fines will be reimbursed by the AFL anyway, via conveniently favourable fixtures for the next year or two. Then they'll ban a few random, inconsequential admin guys from being involved in footy again (code for getting them a gig at EY or Deloitte as a Consultant or something).

The AFL media like Jon Ralph and Gerard Whateley will laud them adnauseum for a few weeks for taking such an open, transparent and hard stance on the issue - then everyone will move on. Meanwhile, the AFL execs will all sit back in their chairs and puff on their cigars, pat each other on the back and chortle about how smart they are and how dumb we all are.

 

[kranky al]

Sorry Jenny gotta disagree here. I’m learning in life that “treating everyone the same” has aspects of racism to it.

When systems and programs are designed by or around a dominant culture, when other cultures are asked or required to participate in that system or program on the basis of “treating everyone the same” and “without fear or favour” what is actually being done is a requirement that those people from the non-dominant culture conform to the dominant culture.

It is not as explicit as some other examples of clear racism but it is racist and discriminatory nonetheless. It seems to minimalise the importance of other cultures.

As I said I’m still learning this as I reflect on my own experiences and behaviours.

Regards

S. Pete

This is so true,

Something you will see often on social media is people who are well meaning saying things like “there is no black and white, theres just australians, that’s all i see.

The actual message there, it that you are assimilated, like it or not

 

[Curly5]

Have you read the ABC report?
Ian: from the info in the report, was at the club for well over 18 months....38week pregnancy.....still there 6 months later when she fell pregnant again.
Zac: "A few seasons into his career, he believed he was on the right track, developing and progressing as a player."
Liam: "but for Liam's second season she left the safety net of her family and moved to Melbourne"

It should be fairly simple for Hawthorn staff to identify these guys from the information given and enlarge upon the backstory of each one and the incidents described. That shouldn’t mean playing anything down necessarily.

 

[JackOutback]

I concur with this.
I dont agree that Clarkson nor Fagan are card carrying members of the KKK. I do however think its highly probable that the common element of the 3 allegations (footy over partners) is true. The grey area is somewhere between how each party interpreted it all.
I also dont agree that people should be hung out to dry, rather all people should learn from it and vow to avoid similar issues moving forward.

I don’t doubt Clarkson and Fagan thought they were ‘trying to set a troubled person right’ but if even a fraction of what is alleged is true, they overstepped the mark and did the wrong thing and that comes with consequences.

 

[Festerz]

Can’t help but notice the difference in reporting from the AFL media compared to “the camp”.

Adelaide’s situation had months of daily speculation, calls for massive fines, stripping draft picks etc.

Do AFL House push this because it’s a big Victorian team, or are there just too many in the media who dislike the Crows?

FFS you can't be serious. You've drank too much of the West Lakes Kool-Aid.

The players who attended the camp were told not to talk to anyone about what happened - even their own partners. They were even given a script of what to say when asked about it. There are you tube videos of Tex Walker and Rory Sloane saying word for word the same thing about how good the camp was them and how it made them better men and stuff.

Several players at the 2018 pre-season Crows camp went to the media with stories of cult-like bonding sessions and mis-treatment of indigenous players. Eddie Betts gave a full report of what happened to him the the Crows Doctor. And after he did he was removed from he Crows on field leadership group with club management accusing him of leaking to the press.

Not one Adelaide media outlet reported these stories accurately and local radio and TV journos came up with the same crap you're spruiking- that it was anti-vic bias. And the 2 Melbourne journos who did try and pursue the truth - The Age's Caro Wilson and Sam McClure were ridiculed from SA. McClure even had
his prestigious sports news Quill award stripped from him after allegations he made it all up.

As for the AFL their internal 'Integrity Dept.' did its usual internal 'investigation' of the mistreatment allegations and, surprise, surprise found nothing untoward happened and cleared the Crows of any wrongdoing.

It took Eddie Betts to publish a book (with the assistance of the partner of a former crows player) 4 years later detailing the full details of what went happened at that camp before other players publicly came out with similar stories. ONLY THEN did the Crows Chairman and their CEO come out and publicly apologise for what happened. ONLY THEN did Gil McLachlan come out and apologise to Eddie for what happened. ONLY THEN did sections of the Adelaide media (nearly all of them either former Crows players, coaches or appointed Crows 'ambassadors') finally start to talk about the camp in disparaging terms. And only then did Sam McLure get the recognition he deserved for pursuing the camp story like a proper journalist, rather than being a lap dog of the AFL.

Oh any you need to be reminded that an amendment made to the Adelaide Football Club constitution in 2014 gives the AFL effective control over the Adelaide Crows Board, making it the ultimate authority/owner of the crows (same applies to Port Adelaide). So what we had with the camp allegations was the AFL (via its integrity unit) investigating itself and finding nothing wrong....of course.

Your claims of Adelaide being harshly treated by journalists or the AFL for what happened at the camp is simply wrong.

It is in fact a perfect example of why the AFL (and its media mates) can never be trusted to undertake a thorough review of allegations concerning its competition, clubs, players or officials. Not if you want to get the the core of the issues and see real cultural reform and change, as opposed to brand protection.

And it leads to the obvious question - what would McLachlan and the AFL have done with the the Hawthorn commissioned review of indigenous issues if the ABC had not released its own investigation into the allegations? IMHO there is simply no way that they would have launched an 'independent' investigation into the allegations had their hand not been forced by the ABC story. Nah - it would (and probably already had been) given to the AFL's integrity integrity unit for the usual 'fixit' and we would not have heard a bloody thing about it.

And I strongly suspect someone at the Hawks, or possibly AFL House itself, felt exactly the same way. Which is how the ABC's Russell Jackson ended up with the lead to his story - to ensure the allegations were properly investigated rather than being subject to the usual AFL House internal whitewash (excuse the pun).

 

[Dragz]

Let's put it simply. Has anyone posting in this thread ever had anyone ever, or more specifically, an employer, tell them that they had to ditch a girlfriend, wife, partner because that was causing problems at work? Can you imagine that happening?

Yes, i had my boss (many years ago) express concerns about my then fiancé. The concern was less about my performance at work and more about my well being as a person.

Told them I was fine, she was fine.

Hindsight in my circumstances tells me they were correct.

Regarding Clarko and the rest, I have no idea what was said, but I have no issues with those people being punted out of the game forever if those allegations are true though. The primary concern MUST be about those who have had negative experiences.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Yes, i had my boss (many years ago) express concerns about my then fiancé. The concern was less about my performance at work and more about my well being as a person.

Told them I was fine, she was fine.

Hindsight in my circumstances tells me they were correct.

Regarding Clarko and the rest, I have no idea what was said, but I have no issues with those people being punted out of the game forever if those allegations are true though. The primary concern MUST be about those who have had negative experiences.

relationship advice is one thing.

coercing them to abort a baby against their will is another.

 

[Curly5]

relationship advice is one thing.

coercing them to abort a baby against their will is another.

I’m yet to be convinced that happened.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I’m yet to be convinced that happened.

i mean everything needs to be proven of course you dont believe the victims claim?

 

[11kgm]

Now the players are refusing to be re interviewed

This is going to be a ******* mess

 

[Forward Press]

I’m yet to be convinced that happened.

Great.

I do hope, however, you don't turn it into "well the 'victims' must be lying"

Hopefully the truth comes out when the investigation is complete but at this point in time I highly doubt the whole thing was entirely made up.

 

[Forward Press]

Now the players are refusing to be re interviewed

This is going to be a ******* mess

I don't blame them if what is alleged occured.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Interesting is the choice of worlds from Fagan.

(Paraphrasing) "I deny any wrongdoing in relation to..."


That to me reads that he doesn't deny that that stuff happened - just that he denies any of it was the wrong thing to do.

 

[Engimal v3]

Interesting is the choice of worlds from Fagan.

(Paraphrasing) "I deny any wrongdoing in relation to..."


That to me reads that he doesn't deny that that stuff happened - just that he denies any of it was the wrong thing to do.

I think people are getting too caught up in stuff like this. It's a statement that's probably been ran through a legal team 20 times to be watertight.