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In some cases the ends justifying the means is true, and in other cases it most certainly isn't. Part of leadership is knowing the difference. I get the feeling you wouldn't know the difference without a rule book .......... hence never.

Sometimes being a leader means NOT following the rules. Once you grasp this then you may understand my genius and profit from my wisdom.

So you need to suffer consequences to learn lessons in life. That's a new one. Everyday people make mistakes without suffering consequences, yet learn a lesson. I can't believe I had to explain that to you. Jeremy Howe probably doesn't play frisbee with his dog anymore for example.

Stephenson did listen to Howe and took his advice. Your mind must be boggled.

Yes the country has turned to hell because Stephenson had a multi and hurt no one but himself. Perspective.

Nice. Once again it depends on the crime and how you would advise someone to go forward. If no one else was hurt by their actions then it's all about teaching them the right way to go forward with their lives, how they should behave, how they should conduct themselves. You don't have to...

Wow, so we're now equating Stevo (20 year old playing footy) to a politician, and Howe is brave. As you say, no wonder this country is going to hell in a hand basket.

I know exactly the position Howe was in, he chose himself. It had nothing to do with 'leadership'.

You have completely missed my point. First assess the crime. Did anything Stevo did hurt or negatively impact on others. No. As a parent (read Howe) I would have ensured the kids (Stevo) knew exactly what they had done wrong. Explained all the possible consequences to themselves and others, and...

So being in the leadership group means throwing a team mate under the bus instead of quietly helping him change his behaviour. Let's just agree to disagree on what real leadership is.

You say integrity, I say taking a mate to the hangman.

This is where we disagree, theres no evidence that truth would have come out. A mate of mine confided in me 30 years ago that he was worried about getting caught growing shall we say 'something illegal'. I told him to get rid of them, he did. End of story. Howe should have asked him if he used...

Agreed, once he went to Walsh it was all over. Walsh had no option. The crap advice came from Howe.

Was he found guilty of that? No he wasn't. So he was actually found guilty of placing a bet on footy. That's it. But it's no surprise the AFL used him to send a message (as they would have with any player) about possible future corruption. My amazement is that he offerred himself up to be...

This wasn't corruption. If it was he'd never play again. He's been used by the AFL to stop potential future corruption. Big difference.[

Not sure you should feel so mortally wounded. He doesn't need to earn back our respect. He's a 20 year old footballer who made a silly mistake and seems like an incredible likable kid. Actually appears to be the type of kid a parent would want their son to be. This kids biggest actual mistake...

Unless he backed himself for 1st point I just don't care. We should make every team back themselves.

In: quaynor, Cox, Sier and Daicos Out: Reid, Varcoe, Brown, Aish.

Went to the game and the 3 standouts to b dropped we're Reid, Madgen and Wills. If Cox is ready, straight in for Reid. Quaynor for Madgen. Adams for Wills. Degoey for Wells. (Varcoe if no DeGoey) Varcoe, WHE, Brown and JT currently fighting for 3 spots.

Varcoe picked a bad time to get suspended. Finally hit the scoreboard and earned his way. Disappointing. Even Madgen hoping he doesn't get picked to play on Buddy. :straining:

No doubt our weakest team of the year, especially if Dr Goey doesn't get up. Varcoe needs to find form and Reid needs to be serviceable. I'll take any size win.

Assuming Mayne out so Beams comes in. Reid out for Cox. Cox's ability to be a target up the line and take a contested mark is something that Reid can't provide, plus I think Cox is a better player. No 3 talls for me, Reid and Cox = too immobile. Sounds like Seir needs another run, maybe Wells if...

Reid out if Cox is ready. I'd like to see Quaynor come in for Adams but think it will be Aish or Wills.

His 6 yesterday took his total to 18 for year in 5 games, hardly elite, and he needs to do more than that is what I'm saying. At the moment that is all he's doing. His output this year has been poor, the coaches agreed with that after a few rounds, it's not a controversial thing to say. If he...

You missed the point. His 'manic ' pressure hasn't resulted in real benefits for the team. He can get the ball, can't win the ball through his pressure and can't hit the scoreboard. He's in the mix with about 7 others competing for the last 3 or 4 spots and clearly needs to lift.

Varcoes manic pressure has resulted in 1 free kick and 7 against for the year and 1 goal. He's been dropped once already this year, so it's not a controversial call for him to be dropped again. His speed is saving him, but needs to improve his output, and quickly.

Thread needs more Varcoe. Been poor all year.

5. Treloar 4. Mihocek 3. Crisp 2. Stevo 1. Grundy

Words fail me.

Varcoe poor last 2 weeks. His pressure against Geelong was always a second too late and ineffectual. Mr Invisable last night. Will survive until WHE is ready OR he plays like his last 5 games last year.