- Feb 24, 2013
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Source Podgey....I'm not interested in what you think.
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Religion ‘Submit to your husbands’: Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God
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Source Podgey....I'm not interested in what you think.
Chief
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No.
I just don’t know what you are trying to say.
Is it going to be a “what about...”?
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Chief
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What stunned them when they first met for dinner were two things. First, how many of them there were, and how common and continuing this problem seemed to be.
Second were the similarities in their experiences: after committing their lives to supporting their husband's ministry, each had been forced to leave after decades of emotional, financial and sexual abuse which had left them depressed, fearful and, for some, suicidal.
Several had been part of Moore Theological College in Sydney — the training seminary of the Anglican Diocese of Sydney — when their husbands studied to be priests. All had mixed experiences with the church after disclosing their abuse: some clergy had supported them and pleaded their cases, while others ignored them.
All had disappointing or bruising experiences with a senior church leader when they asked for help.
It has been a year since they found each other, a year spent submitting police reports, talking for hours, struggling to pay bills and seeing psychologists. And they now also share a common anger.
They claim to have been silenced, their abuse covered up and their experiences ignored by a hierarchy that, they say, continues to see domestic violence as a peripheral female problem.
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"[At Moore Theological college in Sydney, where my husband trained] we were given regular specific teaching sessions that would help us be good minister's wives.
"Things like, your job is to give your husband sex whenever he wants it anytime of the day or night … this is the message we were given: be ready if he pops home in his lunch break to drop everything, and have sex.
"We were never ever given any hint that it might be okay to say no."
Emily says she was never taught at that college that women had to provide sex without consent, "but the teaching on sex was extremely coercive".
"We were told that we, as wives, are the only people who can serve our husbands in this way, and the strong implication was that we were harming [our husbands'] gospel ministry by not giving it," she said.
"I even heard one Moore College lecturer teach from the front that sex should be provided daily. And he gave biblical 'evidence'."
Similar concerns about marital rape in some faith forums have been aired recently in America.
On conservative Christian website BiblicalGenderRoles.com, married men were told they "should not tolerate refusal" of sex, and that if their wives "begrudged" their advances, they should look at their bodies, not their faces.
Men were also advised a woman's unwillingness to submit to her husband's desire for sex is a "sinful rebellion against God's design".
No true Christian would advise or condone rape. This is anathema to the faith, and the faithful.
But what abuse survivors have told the ABC repeatedly is that there is tone deafness in some influential quarters and powerful theological colleges to teaching on sex that fails to recognise the importance of mutual consent. The consequences of this are horrific.
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In 2016, at a conference for women in Sydney where domestic violence was discussed, a session on "Appreciating God's Gift of Sex" gave as one example of challenges that can "fracture the beauty of sex", along with pornography and busyness: "women calling the shots in the bedroom".
Other statements made included: "Like the rest of the Christian life, sex is about service", and, "One way we serve our spouse is by fulfilling the sexual obligation we owe".
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When Moore College recently published a guide for clergy wives called Domestic Violence: A Starting Point in Supporting Victims, the clergy wives who were actual victims fumed.
In advice on "Building Healthy Marriages", the author says the only reason for denying your husband sex is by "mutual consent", so you can devote yourself to prayer.
Sex, she wrote, "should be seen as the cement in the relationship — it is not just the icing on the cake".
What truly angered the women, though, was that the first two chapters of the guide, written by the head of Moore Theological College in Newtown, Mark Thompson, were dedicated solely to upholding the doctrine of submission.
"I think there's some good content in there," said Kylie. "But you have to read through around 25 or 30 pages of defending the church's teachings about [male] headship and [female] submission before you even get to anything focused on the victims in any way."
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- Feb 24, 2013
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And in what universe does that equate to or translate to 'You are allowed to hit your wife'?
You appear surprised that the clergy would cover-up such activities when many were guilty of all sorts of malfeasance themselves. Seems to me to be consistent with what one would expect.
An anecdote! As a little tacker I was dragged along to church because my folks were God fearing people. There was a church newsletter financed by the flock advertising their wares. Three times my folks used the services offered by the church goers and three times they were ripped off. They soon stopped that process and it taught me a valuable lesson.
It seems many religious folk reckon that if they are regular churchgoers, participate in the fellowship, and throw a shekel or two in the collection plate they can go about their business without being overly concerned about how they live their lives. If you're a Catholic having confession where the slate is wiped clean is an added bonus. And the clergy are comfortable with that state of affairs.
What's the saying - so heavenly minded they are no earthly good.
Of course there are those who 'live' their beliefs but they appear to be an ever shrinking number along with those who are believers.
Chief
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- #334
For too many people, this universe.
Women “owe” sex and submission.
If they just submit, so it goes, everything would be fine. If there is trouble, the woman must not be trying hard enough. They should, it is taught, submit more and give what they owe without complaint.
I do wish tesseract were here to parade his headship nonsense...
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- Feb 24, 2013
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Regardless of interpretations....The Bible does not condone men hitting their wives.....To say otherwise is to indulge in sheer fantasy.
Marriage is a contract between 2 parties....It is up to those 2 adult individuals to decide what that entails.
If hubby likes to be spanked & wifey agrees to procure said indulgence, then that's their business.
If one party becomes unhappy with the situation/ contract, then that's what divorce exists for....To end said contractual arrangement.....Easy-peasy.
- Feb 24, 2013
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To be fair it was almost a year ago now Chief.
You picked me up on a point I was addressing Podgey over.....Which was: That the Bible does not condone men hitting their wives, anywhere in writing.
So one can hardly use it as a literal justification for a power-trip or as a viable legal or religio-philosophical defence, for one's own actions to the contrary.
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If we are talking about cultures within Australia then Islam and Aborigine would be high for women requiring to submit to men. And there is clearly a much greater problem of child abuse in Aborigine societies than any other in this country.
Didn't you ban him?
Lethality
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That's just your opinion though, whereas Christian and Islamic belief is a bit different. Can we just respect both views as valid? We can emphasise that it's our view that it's wrong, but I don't think we should just assume that it's definitely wrong.
Chief
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Chief
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Jeebus Podgey....Don't ever sit for the bar exam.....Sheeeesh.
The issue is that the idea of female submission is backed up by the Bible - Corinthians.
This is used by people and institutions to teach people that women owe men obedience - in physical, financial and other matters.
This is backed up by the latest article I posted. This is not limited to Christian churches and communities.
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Where are these women that you speak of Chief?.....I needs to go & get me one of those.
Thegibbsgamble
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- #346
Im sure that what i said was the most relevant intelligent and rational contribution so far.
Considering everything. A response like yours is like a ten from a judge in figure skating
Thegibbsgamble
I beg to meg
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- #347
Feeding your kids McDonald's is child abuse
Buying them a cell phone before they are 21 is child abuse
Allowing them to watch commercial media is child abuse
Not teaching them about the genocide against the indigenous is child abuse
Chief
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- #348
You haven't actually said anything relevant to this topic.
"What about unfairness to husbands in the courts" is a different issue to these reports documenting abuse across multiple religious communities, and how the religious hierarchy responds, how the members of those communities respond, how the general public responds, the difference between the statements by figures in the hierarchies and whether the worthy goals and missions are ever incorporated in practice.
Chief
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Sure - talk about that. It doesn't change what is reported in these pieces on the mainstream religions and their issues with abuse. The main issue seems to be the very doctrines like headship and submission found within the religious texts and how these are used by abusers and at times ignored or covered up by the hierarchies and the victims fellow religionists.
