Analysis “Hawthorn are middle of the road at best” discussion

Abasi

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We were clearly the best team, an awesome team back then, now we are middle of the road at best, so no, that argument doesn’t hold up well! Gunston stays or it it will be a case Clarko has gone NUTS!
We beat 3 of the top 4 teams with our best mid sitting in the stands.

“We are middle of the road at best” is crap.

If Gunston goes it will be to bring in someone exciting.
 

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Billyc

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We beat 3 of the top 4 teams with our best mid sitting in the stands.

“We are middle of the road at best” is crap.

If Gunston goes it will be to bring in someone exciting, of which most here will be pretty excited.
We finished 9th in an 18 team competition. Definition of middle of the road at this stage.
 

Ned Ryerson

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We finished 9th in an 18 team competition. Definition of middle of the road at this stage.
He said middle of the road ‘at best’. We finished 9th without Tom Mitchell. Mitchell returns next year we basically have our 2017 squad with an improved Worps and Wingard in the middle and TOB and Lewis to continue their partnership up front.
 

Billyc

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He said middle of the road ‘at best’. We finished 9th without Tom Mitchell. Mitchell returns next year we basically have our 2017 squad with an improved Worps and Wingard in the middle and TOB and Lewis to continue their partnership up front.
Injuries happen. Richmond haven’t had Rance all year. GWS have had more superstars in the stands than we have on the list half the season. Eagles won the flag last year without Naitanui or Gaff. In 2014 we won a flag with a huge injury list all year. Ditto the Dogs in 2016.

Right now we are the very definition of a middle of the road side. Clarko said as much himself. We finished 9th in an 18 team competition and we have not won a final in 4 years.

We have a lot of improvement to properly contend. That is possible with good trading and development of players but ours isn’t exactly a list that screams premiership

Not sure opposition sides are quaking at the TOB / Lewis combo just quietly.
 
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Brant

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Apparently it’s “crap” that 9th out of 18 is middle of the road 🤷‍♂️
Probs worth considering how we ended there.

If we'd won a whole bunch of games early, then got players back & lost the rest then we'd be in a pretty bad spot.

However, we lost a bunch of games early, got some (not all) players back, then beat the teams that matter...

Finishing 9th doesn't tell the story, only the result. Perhaps results are all that matters in assessing the past, but you'd be foolish to rely on them as the sole or even primary predictor of the future in this case.
 

Nastyfish

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Sep 14, 2018
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Probs worth considering how we ended there.

If we'd won a whole bunch of games early, then got players back & lost the rest then we'd be in a pretty bad spot.

However, we lost a bunch of games early, got some (not all) players back, then beat the teams that matter...

Finishing 9th doesn't tell the story, only the result. Perhaps results are all that matters in assessing the past, but you'd be foolish to rely on them as the sole or even primary predictor of the future in this case.
Maybe Brisbane last year was also an example of this, showing that a steep bounce up is possible. However, you have got to be careful of the old Richmond perpetual ninth we’re coming mediocrity syndrome.
 

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Billyc

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It’s crap when you look at the ladder and apply zero context.

Geelong isn’t the best side in the comp.

“But but but....they’re on top of the ladder!”
Odd example. Geelong are 4 goals up in a prelim. They are plainly a contender

Hawks finished 9th, have one of the older lists and have not won a final in 4 years. On what basis are we not a mid-ladder side?
 

Billyc

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Blinkers on?

I’m the one saying looking deeper than a simple ladder position when declaring that we’re “at best” a middling team.
You said it’s crap that we are a mid ladder side. That’s what we are right now. We want to improve but we are mid ladder side that finished mid ladder and lost to a lot of ordinary sides this year.
 

Brant

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I think 9th flaterred us this year. We we're on track to being a genuine bottom 4-6 side for a good portion of the year.
Until we demolished those Top 4 sides? :think:

Original statement seems legit...


Clearly, we were a fu**load better than 9th but our sh**ty early season form meant we could finish (due to injuries & a horrible game plan going forward) no higher.
 

jenniferHAWKinS

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Odd example. Geelong are 4 goals up in a prelim. They are plainly a contender

Hawks finished 9th, have one of the older lists and have not won a final in 4 years. On what basis are we not a mid-ladder side?
We were clearly a top 8 side in the last 8 weeks with Wingard in the middle. We lost 10 games by 27 points or less and 1 by 36 without our best player. Our percentage of 107 was a good indicator of our season. We are only Titch and maybe 1 more A grader away from being a contender. Not a great mountain to climb watching this finals series!
 

flinchfree

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It's incorrect to say we're currently better than 'middle of the road', given our ladder position this year.
It's the 'at best' part that is hard to work out....
Our best beat the best this year.
Our best form would have us amongst the best teams in the league.
Our inconsistent 'non-best' combined with thin back up in the middle of the ground/wings and floundering forward line at times had us finish middle of the road.

Next year, with Mitchell back and zero additions to the squad - which won't happen - I see us in that 4-6 range on the ladder.
At best, with a nice trading period/FA addition or two, and gun pick up in the draft, I reckon we should be 3-4.
Much, muuuuuuuch better than middle of the road. At our best, of course.
 

Bugs1977

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We were clearly a top 8 side in the last 8 weeks with Wingard in the middle. We lost 10 games by 27 points or less and 1 by 36 without our best player. Our percentage of 107 was a good indicator of our season. We are only Titch and maybe 1 more A grader away from being a contender. Not a great mountain to climb watching this finals series!
We also need some depth and that’s just as hard to get as the A grader. We’ll be right 👍🏾
 

Billyc

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It's the 'at best' part that is hard to work out....
Our best beat the best this year.
Our best form would have us amongst the best teams in the league.
Our inconsistent 'non-best' combined with thin back up in the middle of the ground/wings and floundering forward line at times had us finish middle of the road.

Next year, with Mitchell back and zero additions to the squad - which won't happen - I see us in that 4-6 range on the ladder.
At best, with a nice trading period/FA addition or two, and gun pick up in the draft, I reckon we should be 3-4.
Much, muuuuuuuch better than middle of the road. At our best, of course.
Reckon most clubs could make the same argument. Port Adelaide’s best was as good as any side this year. Their worst stunk and they missed finals as a result. It does no value to cherry pick the good games and ignore the bad ones. Middle of the road sides are inconsistent. Beating the top sides in H&A games when those sides might not be at their best is very different to winning finals too, as we saw in 2018. We used to laugh as opposition supporters who would point to H&A wins against Hawthorn as meaning anything, now Hawks fans are clinging to them.

We have a lot of improvement to be a contender. It can happen quickly as other sides have shown with a couple star recruits or break out stars but right now, we are a fair way off. Looking at Richmond alone, they get Rance back next year and will probably get more games out of Riewoldt and Cotchin and a pre season out of Lynch. And they have Martin. That’s the benchmark.
 

NICE1

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Until we demolished those Top 4 sides? :think:

Original statement seems legit...


Clearly, we were a fu**load better than 9th but our sh**ty early season form meant we could finish (due to injuries & a horrible game plan going forward) no higher.
Yeh nah i dont buy into that logic. If we're a fu** load better than 9th then we finish higher than 9th and dont lose to a bunch of shit teams.
 

Billyc

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Yeh nah i dont buy into that logic. If we're a fu** load better than 9th then we finish higher than 9th and dont lose to a bunch of s**t teams.
Yes but once you ignore our bad games and focus only on our good games; and then ignore all other clubs’ good games and focus only on their bad games; and factor in Mitchell’s injury while overlooking every sides’ injuries; we were pretty much a top 4 side in 2019.
 

NICE1

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Yes but once you ignore our bad games and focus only on our good games; and then ignore all other clubs’ good games and focus only on their bad games; and factor in Mitchell’s injury while overlooking every sides’ injuries; we were pretty much a top 4 side in 2019.
Haha ridiculous isnt it.
 

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