Analysis “Hawthorn are middle of the road at best” discussion

HODGEYROAD

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May 10, 2007
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I wonder how Richmond would have gone if they'd missed out on their best player for the entire season. Not just a few good ones, we missed those as well, but their best player donuts for the season.
Although they didn't miss their best player, they did miss Rance for the season and Cotchin and Jack for half the season, so probably not a great comparison to make.
 

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Abasi

MoodGenerator
Apr 19, 2006
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Because it shows not surprisingly given the success we had that we've been off the pace for a significant period of time, not that I blame the club as it's nigh on impossible to stay at the top in this current climate. But I just think this board needs a dose of reality at times, rather than the we'll win Premierships because we're Hawthorn.
You are literally just posting a Geelong trolls ‘go to’.

Maybe your “woe is Hawthorn” rhetoric is not actually reality.
 

flinchfree

Premiership Player
Jan 30, 2014
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Why would we need to finish in that position for 6 years straight to be considered a middle of the road team? We finished 9th, outside of finals, in an 18 team competition - which is the very definition of middle of the road.

Now that just on face value, and doesn't factor in the critical injury to our best player. But based on last year we were a middle of the road team, there's no way around that fact.

Hopefully with the return of Mitchell (in some capacity), the new faces, the improvement from some younger players and some adjustments in game plan we will move ourselves out of being a middle of the road team and fight out for a top four spot. Some of our end of season wins were encouraging, so hopefully the club picks up where it left off.
Nup. That made last year a middle of the road year for the team.
A team can't be a top side, a middle of the road side, and bottom of the competition side in a three year period...especially if there hasn't been huge turnover.
There are circumstances usually that describe each finish when it changes like that, you know, factors. If the movement is consistently downward without spikes, you can begin to suspect it reflects the makeup and limited potential of the group.

You get lablelled as something that is likely to repeat itself and is an agreed upon observation when you consistently reflect it.
We haven't.
But that's ok, maybe you and some others can think we're a middle of the road side, and other supporters can think differently.
The difference is, a middle of the road side can't change very much without new players or new coaching philosophy.
Coach isn't changing and neither is the philosophy. List will change but most of the main players remain the same.
So if were better next year, it's because we are a good team that underperformed last year, and if we repeat as middle of the ladder more evidence gets laid that that's who we actually are.

I like 6 years because I don't want to look like a donk who changes what he thinks of the team week to week or over a season or two. Personally find it funny to read the opinions of those who blow like the wind and love us one week and think we're absolute trash 2 weeks later.
 

HODGEYROAD

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Nup. That made last year a middle of the road year for the team.
A team can't be a top side, a middle of the road side, and bottom of the competition side in a three year period...especially if there hasn't been huge turnover.
There are circumstances usually that describe each finish when it changes like that, you know, factors. If the movement is consistently downward without spikes, you can begin to suspect it reflects the makeup and limited potential of the group.

You get lablelled as something that is likely to repeat itself and is an agreed upon observation when you consistently reflect it.
We haven't.
But that's ok, maybe you and some others can think we're a middle of the road side, and other supporters can think differently.
The difference is, a middle of the road side can't change very much without new players or new coaching philosophy.
Coach isn't changing and neither is the philosophy. List will change but most of the main players remain the same.
So if were better next year, it's because we are a good team that underperformed last year, and if we repeat as middle of the ladder more evidence gets laid that that's who we actually are.

I like 6 years because I don't want to look like a donk who changes what he thinks of the team week to week or over a season or two. Personally find it funny to read the opinions of those who blow like the wind and love us one week and think we're absolute trash 2 weeks later.
Half your sample size is led by a squad that had multiple generational talents. A better assessment of current Hawthorn is 2017-2019 IMO, that's when we turned over the list and started to head on our current path.
 

flinchfree

Premiership Player
Jan 30, 2014
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Yeah they went 7-6 when that had anywhere from 7-11 of their best 22 out each week, that's very true.
You make a lot of excuses for others and none for us. :tearsofjoy:
Why are you specifically choosing the sample year size in a way that most poorly reflects our troubles, but ignore other 'top' teams inconsistent finishes? That's strange to me, with how you phrased what being a top side is...

Or perhaps the takeaway in fact is that the entire competition is filled with middle of the road teams from top to bottom, and only the vagaries of form that particular year constitute who's the winner of an even competition???
 

flinchfree

Premiership Player
Jan 30, 2014
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In that case, being as good as anyone else going around is just fine with me if the moniker accompanying is 'middle of the road'.:thumbsu:
 

Carl Spackler

Club Legend
Jul 29, 2018
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You make a lot of excuses for others and none for us. :tearsofjoy:
Why are you specifically choosing the sample year size in a way that most poorly reflects our troubles, but ignore other 'top' teams inconsistent finishes? That's strange to me, with how you phrased what being a top side is...

Or perhaps the takeaway in fact is that the entire competition is filled with middle of the road teams from top to bottom, and only the vagaries of form that particular year constitute who's the winner of an even competition???
Some people call this beer half full. Others call it half empty. I say it's a task not yet complete.

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Judd2Sewell

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 31, 2008
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Nup. That made last year a middle of the road year for the team.
A team can't be a top side, a middle of the road side, and bottom of the competition side in a three year period...especially if there hasn't been huge turnover.
There are circumstances usually that describe each finish when it changes like that, you know, factors. If the movement is consistently downward without spikes, you can begin to suspect it reflects the makeup and limited potential of the group.

You get lablelled as something that is likely to repeat itself and is an agreed upon observation when you consistently reflect it.
We haven't.
But that's ok, maybe you and some others can think we're a middle of the road side, and other supporters can think differently.
The difference is, a middle of the road side can't change very much without new players or new coaching philosophy.
Coach isn't changing and neither is the philosophy. List will change but most of the main players remain the same.
So if were better next year, it's because we are a good team that underperformed last year, and if we repeat as middle of the ladder more evidence gets laid that that's who we actually are.

I like 6 years because I don't want to look like a donk who changes what he thinks of the team week to week or over a season or two. Personally find it funny to read the opinions of those who blow like the wind and love us one week and think we're absolute trash 2 weeks later.
Finish 9th out of 18 is the epitome of being middle of the road. Regardless of the circumstances in 2019 we were a middle of the road team. You literally cannot refute that fact.

Now next year will be a different matter for a variety of reasons, but for 2019 the Hawthorn Football Club were a middle of the road team.
 

flinchfree

Premiership Player
Jan 30, 2014
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Finish 9th out of 18 is the epitome of being middle of the road. Regardless of the circumstances in 2019 we were a middle of the road team. You literally cannot refute that fact.

Now next year will be a different matter for a variety of reasons, but for 2019 the Hawthorn Football Club were a middle of the road team.
Ahh, context.
If we leave out 'AT BEST' then I agree completely.
At best I thought we were as good as anyone.
At par I thought we were middling.
At worst we were underwhelming, especially early during pinchy pinchy times. No leadership, Rough unable to break a trot, no Mitch, and a game plan that didn't make more out of any advantages of personnel we were running. Older stars looking for others to make the difference, the fire seemed weak.
A completely different team the last 10 rounds or so.
Who are we going forward?
Where's that half full glass of beer Carl was shouting?
 

AlwaysHawks15

Club Legend
Nov 12, 2014
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They won the flag without Rance, and with both Cotchin and Reiwoldt struggling.
Everyone was there bar Rance GF day. They actually don't have great depth in the key back area (Garthwaite is mediocre and Balta an unknown quantity) it's the ability of Grimes and Vlastuin to be complete animals (I mean that in glowing terms) as players to more than make up for that. We also won a flag with Buddy not really firing on all cylinders all year (2013) but we had others that picked up the slack. What I'm getting at is you need a good system in place to mask any deficiencies your team has and Richmond has THE system for success.
 

AlwaysHawks15

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Yeah they went 7-6 when that had anywhere from 7-11 of their best 22 out each week, that's very true.
Yeah but the talk all year was how good their depth is. They had heaps out but apart from 1 game off the top of my head they had full availability of Dusty. Dusty is the head of the shark followed by Rance. Mitchell is our Dusty in terms of importance. While he continues to play just about every game all year and the others maintain their level they will hard to beat for a while, that won't happen if Dusty does his knee and is out for the year.
 

Judd2Sewell

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Ahh, context.
If we leave out 'AT BEST' then I agree completely.
At best I thought we were as good as anyone.
At par I thought we were middling.
At worst we were underwhelming, especially early during pinchy pinchy times. No leadership, Rough unable to break a trot, no Mitch, and a game plan that didn't make more out of any advantages of personnel we were running. Older stars looking for others to make the difference, the fire seemed weak.
A completely different team the last 10 rounds or so.
Who are we going forward?
Where's that half full glass of beer Carl was shouting?
Yeah I don't believe that we are a middle of the road team at best, however we were a middle of the road team in the 2019 season - due to multiple reasons.
 

HODGEYROAD

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Everyone was there bar Rance GF day. They actually don't have great depth in the key back area (Garthwaite is mediocre and Balta an unknown quantity) it's the ability of Grimes and Vlastuin to be complete animals (I mean that in glowing terms) as players to more than make up for that. We also won a flag with Buddy not really firing on all cylinders all year (2013) but we had others that picked up the slack. What I'm getting at is you need a good system in place to mask any deficiencies your team has and Richmond has THE system for success.
I don't disagree with you, but I love it how a not firing on all cylinders buddy in 2013 is still kicking 60 goals for the seasons averaging 16 touches, which would be considered elite for every other forward.
 

kirbatron

Norm Smith Medallist
May 28, 2007
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We are still finding & building our squad for another run... this will result in some inconsistent performances... sometimes i feel are on the way to another flag, other times i feel we are on the precipice of having to start all over again.

try & sit back & enjoy the ride life is too short
 

LRobbo

All Australian
Jan 5, 2018
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Out of all the teams that lost players to season ending injuries in 2019, we lost the best. Having said that, if he plays at his usual output we still probably finish 6-8. Middle of the road.

But our back half of the year was as good as any teams in the league which coincided with having a genuine target (Lewis) to kick to and clunk grabs, thus TOB takes marks and we arent kicking it to Puopolo as our full forward which we so often did in the first 10 games.
We also gave up multiple 5 goal leads, Dogs, Lions up there, Saints and North, win one of them and we play finals.

Based on expectant improvements from Wingard, Scully, Scrimshaw, Lewis and Worpel, the return of Mitchell and the structural improvements that Patton and Frost will bring, we should be winning a final in 2020 at worst.

The big ones are Gunston and Bruest, hopefully Patton’s presence and improvements to Lewis will allow them much more space and less attention and get back to +45 goal seasons
 

threesixpio

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Jun 28, 2013
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Out of all the teams that lost players to season ending injuries in 2019, we lost the best. Having said that, if he plays at his usual output we still probably finish 6-8. Middle of the road.

But our back half of the year was as good as any teams in the league which coincided with having a genuine target (Lewis) to kick to and clunk grabs, thus TOB takes marks and we arent kicking it to Puopolo as our full forward which we so often did in the first 10 games.
We also gave up multiple 5 goal leads, Dogs, Lions up there, Saints and North, win one of them and we play finals.

Based on expectant improvements from Wingard, Scully, Scrimshaw, Lewis and Worpel, the return of Mitchell and the structural improvements that Patton and Frost will bring, we should be winning a final in 2020 at worst.

The big ones are Gunston and Bruest, hopefully Patton’s presence and improvements to Lewis will allow them much more space and less attention and get back to +45 goal seasons
Looking forward to The_Axeman posting about how formidable our forwardline loooks with Patton, Lewis and in form O’Brien and Hanrahan going up a few notches and maybe Nash marking well and....

Oh my ...I’m not feeling ...ohhh...need to sit down...I...


 

threesixpio

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 28, 2013
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I think 9th flaterred us this year. We we're on track to being a genuine bottom 4-6 side for a good portion of the year.
We were like two different teams last year. There were definitely some games where our performance was shocking and deserves your post

But there were other games where you post is way off the mark.

Wingard and Worpel in the second half of the year were the difference for me - as was the emergence of Lewis and O’Brien

Impey should be commended for being such a fighter in such a poor team at the beginning of the year. Can’t wait to get him back. The guy is a leader in my view.
 

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