Analysis “Hawthorn are middle of the road at best” discussion

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Gralin

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^ exactly

People get offended by the 'at best' comment, but if you take that out then this is a legitimate discussion topic.
Because plenty want to argue that middle of the road is our best.

Our best last year was good enough to be a finalist our worst was bad enough to be bottom four.

Consistency was a big issue and team cohesion, not unexpected with so many changes to the 22 and so many inexperienced players as far as our system and each other.

It was a development year and we finished mid table which means overall that's our year.

If we can take the last two months of the season and build off that more consistently next year we won't be middle of the road

If we can't we will stay in no man's land

I think we will improve, how much is the question.
 

Cyrillic

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Hang on ! Why are you down playing Richmond’s premiership effort instead of acknowledging the fact that they hung on with their stars out!? It wasn’t as of Cotchin, Riewoldt, nankervis etc.. came back and dominated, far from it in fact, they were just there doing what is expected as bare minimum from them. Rance didn’t even make it back and is regarded as the best defender in the comp. they are a well rounded team and have been brilliant for the past three seasons and need to be acknowledged for that, through injuries and at times average form from their stars, they sh*t it in with ease all the way to a premiership.
If you want to fawn over Richmond that's your perogative. Yes they are the premiers but the amount of carry on on here about them is laughable. The Richmond stink elsewhere is enough without having it permeate through here also. My point was that as soon as the injuries arrived, we saw how they performed. Which tells you that more than ever, any side needs to have their best players on the park.

It wil be the last time I discuss anything Richmond related on this forum. Sorry if that offends you on this Hawthorn forum.
 

Sixpence

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^ exactly

People get offended by the 'at best' comment, but if you take that out then this is a legitimate discussion topic.
If you take out "at best" it's an entirely different discussion. One that is too open ended to really answer. The point of this thread is to discuss specifically where we are at "at best".
 

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tige19

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Results suggest we are a middle of the road team, arguing that we beat top 4 sides is a bit ridiculous considering both North and St.Kilda beat us.

I think all things equal we’ll be playing finals in 2020, what our ceiling is is anyone’s guess. Signs seem ok
 

HODGEYROAD

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Results suggest we are a middle of the road team, arguing that we beat top 4 sides is a bit ridiculous considering both North and St.Kilda beat us.

I think all things equal we’ll be playing finals in 2020, what our ceiling is is anyone’s guess. Signs seem ok
I reckon somewhere around SF/ Prelims in 2020 is our ceiling, anymore would be a surprise and a fantastic one at that.
 

matey

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In recent times Tigers finished 13th in 2016, WC 8th in 2017 and both saluted the following year.

It can change quickly in a comp where there isn’t a big difference between 12th and the best. This year we were middle of the road no doubt losing some games to teams that finished outside the 8. But it wouldn’t surprise me if we pushed top 4 next year. From here anything is possible. Before a finals match or the big dance imagine having JD, Dermie, Hodge, Mitch, Kennedy snr, Lethal etc walking around in the change rooms before a game. We are Hawthorn!

I like what we are doing since 2016, assembling a team with some real genuine quality.
 

MasterSamurai

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If you want to fawn over Richmond that's your perogative. Yes they are the premiers but the amount of carry on on here about them is laughable. The Richmond stink elsewhere is enough without having it permeate through here also. My point was that as soon as the injuries arrived, we saw how they performed. Which tells you that more than ever, any side needs to have their best players on the park.

It wil be the last time I discuss anything Richmond related on this forum. Sorry if that offends you on this Hawthorn forum.
Context mate, context. If it’s a topic of discussion then there’s no harm in talking about other clubs.
 

rogiebear93

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Hang on ! Why are you down playing Richmond’s premiership effort instead of acknowledging the fact that they hung on with their stars out!? It wasn’t as of Cotchin, Riewoldt, nankervis etc.. came back and dominated, far from it in fact, they were just there doing what is expected as bare minimum from them. Rance didn’t even make it back and is regarded as the best defender in the comp. they are a well rounded team and have been brilliant for the past three seasons and need to be acknowledged for that, through injuries and at times average form from their stars, they sh*t it in with ease all the way to a premiership.
Context mate, context. If it’s a topic of discussion then there’s no harm in talking about other clubs.
Richmond have a good list, but to consider their depth to be lauded and their bit part players to be inherently better than others is ridiculous considering where they were at a couple of years ago. Their team and their depth looks so impressive because they're playing well and winning premierships. You'd be laughed at in 2016 and the early parts of 2017 if you suggested that blokes like Castagna, Soldo, Astbury, Broad and Ellis would be reasonable contributors to a premiership teams.

Confidence helps. They're playing a game style that wins, they're playing their parts in that.

Plus they didn't 'sh*t it in' this year - they barely hung on at all. Their losses this year:

Magpies - 44
Giants - 49
Bulldogs - 47
Kangaroos - 37
Cats - 67
Crows - 33

They were a 4th quarter choke effort from Geelong away from not making the Grand Final. They were lucky Hawthorn had a late season renaissance and kicked West Coast out of the top 4. They were exceedingly lucky to have 9 out of their last 10 games on the deck they play their best football.

Richmond are obviously the best team in the competition, but they were given a golden ticket by the rest of the competition from no other team rising above the rest and when they got the majority of their better players back at the end of the year.
 

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Pessimistic

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Richmond have a good list, but to consider their depth to be lauded and their bit part players to be inherently better than others is ridiculous considering where they were at a couple of years ago. Their team and their depth looks so impressive because they're playing well and winning premierships. You'd be laughed at in 2016 and the early parts of 2017 if you suggested that blokes like Castagna, Soldo, Astbury, Broad and Ellis would be reasonable contributors to a premiership teams.

Confidence helps. They're playing a game style that wins, they're playing their parts in that.

Plus they didn't 'sh*t it in' this year - they barely hung on at all. Their losses this year:

Magpies - 44
Giants - 49
Bulldogs - 47
Kangaroos - 37
Cats - 67
Crows - 33

They were a 4th quarter choke effort from Geelong away from not making the Grand Final. They were lucky Hawthorn had a late season renaissance and kicked West Coast out of the top 4. They were exceedingly lucky to have 9 out of their last 10 games on the deck they play their best football.

Richmond are obviously the best team in the competition, but they were given a golden ticket by the rest of the competition from no other team rising above the rest and when they got the majority of their better players back at the end of the year.
Thats interesting, Hawks worst loss to the tigers is smaller than four of richmonds losses - and they are to completely different set of teams
 

MasterSamurai

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Richmond have a good list, but to consider their depth to be lauded and their bit part players to be inherently better than others is ridiculous considering where they were at a couple of years ago. Their team and their depth looks so impressive because they're playing well and winning premierships. You'd be laughed at in 2016 and the early parts of 2017 if you suggested that blokes like Castagna, Soldo, Astbury, Broad and Ellis would be reasonable contributors to a premiership teams.

Confidence helps. They're playing a game style that wins, they're playing their parts in that.

Plus they didn't 'sh*t it in' this year - they barely hung on at all. Their losses this year:

Magpies - 44
Giants - 49
Bulldogs - 47
Kangaroos - 37
Cats - 67
Crows - 33

They were a 4th quarter choke effort from Geelong away from not making the Grand Final. They were lucky Hawthorn had a late season renaissance and kicked West Coast out of the top 4. They were exceedingly lucky to have 9 out of their last 10 games on the deck they play their best football.

Richmond are obviously the best team in the competition, but they were given a golden ticket by the rest of the competition from no other team rising above the rest and when they got the majority of their better players back at the end of the year.
You could make the same argument for and against every premiership winner including hawthorn. Premiership is a premiership and tigers have won two of the last three!!
 

OnTheRocks

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You could make the same argument for and against every premiership winner including hawthorn. Premiership is a premiership and tigers have won two of the last three!!
And should potentially push for another next season. Very well balanced team from top to bottom. Some of their supporters might be unbearable but their club is back big time now.
 

rogiebear93

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You could make the same argument for and against every premiership winner including hawthorn. Premiership is a premiership and tigers have won two of the last three!!
No you couldn't. We suffered similar injury issues to them in 2014, including losing our coach, and still won those games. We definitely didn't lose a handful by 40 points.
 

MasterSamurai

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No you couldn't. We suffered similar injury issues to them in 2014, including losing our coach, and still won those games. We definitely didn't lose a handful by 40 points.
We were better though. By the time 2014 rolled on we were a rolling machine of a team with stars all over the park but when Mitchell Rioli Gibson Lake etc.. were out in those 9 weeks we won 6 of 9 games and I truly believe we would have won almost all of them if they were available. I’m not comparing the two sides, I’m just merely saying what the tigers have right now is a system that needs to be appreciated, that’s all.
 

Billyc

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Id say it is now pretty clear (if it was not already based on 4 years without a finals win) that we are nowhere near challenging. Presently we are closer to the bottom of the ladder than mid-ladder (let alone the upper rungs) though I wouldn’t be surprised if Clarkson finds a trick like he did in 2017 and 2019 and we land a few meaningless late season wins again. Hopefully this time the cracks are not ignored if that happens.

Our list has holes everywhere - save for midfield accumulators (Mitchell, O Meara, Worpel, Shiels) and half back flankers (Sicily Impey Day Scrimshaw).

We have tried plugging holes with quick fix trades which hasn’t worked. Overriding sentiment end of last year was we should be playing finals and contending this year to justify recent decisions. We won’t. What now?
 

Xtreme

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Id say it is now pretty clear (if it was not already based on 4 years without a finals win) that we are nowhere near challenging. Presently we are closer to the bottom of the ladder than mid-ladder (let alone the upper rungs) though I wouldn’t be surprised if Clarkson finds a trick like he did in 2017 and 2019 and we land a few meaningless late season wins again. Hopefully this time the cracks are not ignored if that happens.

Our list has holes everywhere - save for midfield accumulators (Mitchell, O Meara, Worpel, Shiels) and half back flankers (Sicily Impey Day Scrimshaw).

We have tried plugging holes with quick fix trades which hasn’t worked. Overriding sentiment end of last year was we should be playing finals and contending this year to justify recent decisions. We won’t. What now?
Should have merged with Melbourne

Jokes!!
 

HODGEYROAD

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Id say it is now pretty clear (if it was not already based on 4 years without a finals win) that we are nowhere near challenging. Presently we are closer to the bottom of the ladder than mid-ladder (let alone the upper rungs) though I wouldn’t be surprised if Clarkson finds a trick like he did in 2017 and 2019 and we land a few meaningless late season wins again. Hopefully this time the cracks are not ignored if that happens.

Our list has holes everywhere - save for midfield accumulators (Mitchell, O Meara, Worpel, Shiels) and half back flankers (Sicily Impey Day Scrimshaw).

We have tried plugging holes with quick fix trades which hasn’t worked. Overriding sentiment end of last year was we should be playing finals and contending this year to justify recent decisions. We won’t. What now?
Good honest fair assessment of where the list is at. No doubt you'll get some posters that are living in denial that'll call you a kneejerk though and that it's just a bad month of form and nothing else.

To answer the question we're in some trouble, the idea of landing Jaeger, Wingard and Mitchell etc was to compete between 2020-2022, but reality is we're miles off and we'll have to make some bold calls at seasons end. I think the strategy was worth a shot but with the benefit of hindsight we made a mistake, for it to work we needed to land 1 or probably 2 big name free agents and trades like Scully and Patton needed to actually be the steals we'd had hoped.
 

Roddy

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You have to understand the mindset of an operator like Clarko. He is a long-term, progressive thinker. He has a plan, and he is always on a journey. At the moment, we are at the lowest ebb of that journey, just like we were in 05-06 and 09-10. Privately, he wouldn't be giving a rat's fat hairy arse about this year, even though a majority of the fans are sooking like crybabies over a few relatively unimportant losses in a dead rubber year. He's happy to take those hits and move forward with his plan (even if that plan is actually a succession plan, to put his successor in a position to contend). He always has his long term focus on the 'next piece of silverwear'.....
 

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