Autopsy 10 goal loss to the Pies - Rd 11, 2018

[Arcassius]

I actually hope our performances get even worse as the year progresses because it will expose Lyon's ineptitude even more.

That and a player revolt and public backlash are really going to be the only ways to get of him, Rosich and others in the recruitment/medical teams who are responsible for this fiasco which the 'Ross is God' apologists on this board call a 'rebuild'

You're right. The whole club needs a rebuild. Tell you what, lets grab some pitchforks, light some torches and march down to Cockburn where we can microwave our memberships together and demand change. You are a member right? It's hard to tell.

 

[Righteo]

C'mon mods, where's my thread ban? We have to be nice to all these ******s, right?

we do?

 

[LeftFootBanana]

You beat me to it Square Peg.

I didn't see Ross but I read the transcript. He said Collingwood were a good side and that the result shows where we're at. He listed the level of experience we had on the field. Not sure what else he should have said. Pearce, Cerra, and Banfrield? Blokes who are learning the caper. Neale and Fyfe played under duress and Pearce went down injured. I make it seven debutants this year - two of them today plus Ape back from injury finally. That's the reality of our situation and looking at results without appreciating the factors at play is rank idiocy.

Ape did enough to be worth retention when Sandi comes back. I'd REALLY like to see us play him deep inside 50 to wrestle the oppo's biggest defender while Cox plays higher up the ground. He can give Sandi a chop out in the ruck and gives us the option of Sandi playing deep forward which straightens us up bit.

Ross said that they had been throwing players around a bit positionally to give them experience and see how they fared. We'll continue to get belted at times but I don't see anything that indicates the kids have had their spirit broken.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

I actually hope our performances get even worse as the year progresses because it will expose Lyon's ineptitude even more.

That and a player revolt and public backlash are really going to be the only ways to get rid of him, Rosich and others in the recruitment/medical teams who are responsible for this fiasco which the 'Ross is God' apologists on this board call a 'rebuild'

You aren't really a Freo fan

 

[Arcassius]

To add to this very reasonable assessment.

Apeness competed hard both in the ruck and around the ground. At times he wrestled with Grundy and held his own and at other times his Centre jump was timed nicely with some good taps to advantage. Unsurprisingly his repeat efforts and speed associated more with fitness/match Conditioning was lacking. Also a little too often did a panic handball to someone else under the pump but that aside an encouraging effort I felt.

Jones was bog ordinary in the ruck. And despite Rosco’s comment re: his efforts around the ground I disagreed and he was very slow and pushed out of contests too easily by a range of different sizes. Seems like a very polite fella though as he loved putting his hand up and making it very obvious to the entire ground and MCG crowd that he was taking the tap (similar to a tennis player when they win a point after catching the top of the net).

As a fwd Jones was decent for a slow moving big fella. Actually timed his leads quite well and for limited supply took a couple of decent clunks. Better than Sandi up forward and much better than Zac Clarke was up fwd, but his bread and butter is ruck work and his first up effort in the ruck didn’t impress. Compared by some to a slow Jack Hannoth, which was about right.

Yeah I agree with that assessment of Jones. It's a bit stinging that the benchmark we have for how a ruck should perform when forward is Sandilands, so seeing a guy get to good positions and hold marks gets him a pass. Can't wait to see what Darcy brings if he can learn some forward craft (or Apeness gets match fit)

 

[Carson Dial]

Having hoped we’d have made the eight prior to the season, ive reassessed and think finishing the season anywhere between tenth and thirteenth will be on par for this side for this season.
Anyone thinking we’d be belting top eight sides is being optimistic to say the least.

 

[heehaw]

Ross said that they had been throwing players around a bit positionally to give them experience and see how they fared. We'll continue to get belted at times but I don't see anything that indicates the kids have had their spirit broken.

You don't "throw players around a bit" until they HAVE experience. I fail to see how playing players under 50 games in a position they are not used to or have no experience in so they can get belted is good coaching at all.

You only have to look at Crowden as an example. It doesn't even work with older more experienced players such as Matera.

 

[theGav56]

I’m not too worried, I just hope we get, say, the last 5 games to play our best 22 once they’ve all come back from injury.

IMO
Ryan - Hamling - Logue
Wilson - A Pearce - Blakely
Hilly - Neale - Billy
Bennell - McCarthy - Langdon
Matera - Tabs - Walters
Sandi - Fyfe - Mundy
Brayshaw - Cerra - Tucker - Banfield

Looks to be a lot more naturally attacking, better skilled and faster side than what we put out today.

That’s
IN: Sandi, Logue, Hilly, Billy, Bennell, Matera
OUT: Jones, Ape, Giro, Kersten, Sheridan, Duman

Totally agree with your sentiments with the only real question around Sandilands/Darcy. Got to get things rolling for the young guy.

 

[LeftFootBanana]

I actually hope our performances get even worse as the year progresses because it will expose Lyon's ineptitude even more.

That and a player revolt and public backlash are really going to be the only ways to get rid of him, Rosich and others in the recruitment/medical teams who are responsible for this fiasco which the 'Ross is God' apologists on this board call a 'rebuild'

Yep the recruiting team deserve to be hung drawn and quartered for their performance over the last couple of years. Who do they think they are getting Sean Darcy, Luke Ryan, Brennan Cox, Nathan Wilson, Andrew Brayshaw, Adam Cerra, Stefan Giro, Mitchell Crowden and Bailey Banfield to our club. Disgraceful .

 

[Joao]

Cheers for that, response that i'm after? I'm not after any response- purely stating that that sort of submission from a head coach is not acceptable given the quality of the Fremantle list which is undisputable. Fyfe,Neale, Walters, Pearce, Mundy, Blakely, Banfield, Cerra, Mundy (they all played today)............... do I need to go on?

Fremantle are not playing to the sum of their parts - obviously - and to listen to Ross's presser tells me it's a submission, and that is not on IMHO.

Yeah 11 gamer Banfield and 10 gamer Cerra really inspire fear into the heart's of oppositions. Good spot. How are we not flag favourites?

To answer your question, no, no you do not need to go on.

 

[LeftFootBanana]

You don't "throw players around a bit" until they HAVE experience. I fail to see how playing players under 50 games in a position they are not used to or have no experience in so they can get belted is good coaching at all.

You only have to look at Crowden as an example. It doesn't even work with older more experienced players such as Matera.

So you think Ross experiments too much? That's a new one.

 

[Foleybrau]

You don't "throw players around a bit" until they HAVE experience. I fail to see how playing players under 50 games in a position they are not used to or have no experience in so they can get belted is good coaching at all.

You only have to look at Crowden as an example. It doesn't even work with older more experienced players such as Matera.

Agreed. This makes no sense, it's almost an excuse. I feel there is no plan. Start the season off hedging bets with oldies on making finals, then revert to "rebuild" when s**t hits fan

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[heehaw]

A


So you think Ross experiments too much? That's a new one.

How about you answer the question instead of deflecting with a snide remark?

Typical Ross Lyon apologist

 

[LeftFootBanana]

Was there a question? Here's what Ross said:

Bailey Banfield went to the midfield. We just kept exploring and probing with different opportunities for our players and we will continue to do that because that’s what is required. We put Cam McCarthy to centre half back a couple of weeks ago against Sydney. Mitch Crowden went to the back flank (against Sydney). At some point do you put Nat Fyfe to centre-half back and have a look at him there because he is carrying a big load forward and mid? They are the things we are in the position to be able to do.

Seems a reasonable approach to me.

Do you think in the modern game blokes generally play a position - you know like the positions on a whiteboard. Or is the reality more like you might play as a small forward but find yourself spending half you time inside D50 if your team is getting smashed?

Do you think Cerra and Brayshaw should just play in the midfield or build time as forwards with occasional spells in the midfield? I don't really give a s**t where they play as long as they're getting game time.

 

[E Shed]

Need some level of measure in the form of E Shed . Where you at big man?

Just came back from being in guitar/music land since the match. Thanks for tagging me in, since you ask I'll try and say what's been going around my head since the game finished.

Not sure where to start really, it looks like we are going to be in for some real hidings for the rest of the year unless our luck changes with injuries.
As we're seeing, we really don't have much in the shed beyond the best 22. Its obviously too early to make calls on some of the young ones but it looks like we are carrying a fair few players who are either over the hill or simply not good enough. Its easy to say in hindsight but we should have made some tougher decisions earlier on some elder statesman. This feels a bit like the end of 2008 again where once more our list age demographics are out of whack badly.

But until we get a look at Dixon, North, Switkowski, Stranadica etc at the top level and another look at Logue, Darcy, Grey along with both Hills & Taberner we won't really know just how bad this is. Its hard to imagine that any of the untried group with the exception of Dixon are going to be anything but honest toilers and Grey is never going to be more than a supremely tough bit of cannon fodder.

As it is we have battlers like North, Duman, Apeness, Banfield running around half fit and half cocked. , Banfield/Apeness may come to something but its hard to see them as anything more than cattle, ditto Nyhuis, Crowden, Grey, Kersten, Hughes and we know all we need to about Sutcliffe, Spurr, Sheridan. We were probably better off with Mzungu, Crowley, DeBoer and Clancy Pearce than most of the ones I've just mentioned.

We know Cerra & Brayshaw can play, Giro looks interesting at least, I liked the goal he kicked a lot.

As for McCarthy and Matera they have both shown signs of being able to play at a really high level but I have no idea what is going on for them between the ears, particularly Cam. Probably put Tucker in this basket too. Looks a million bucks at times but no consistency. I guess they are all still young-ish in AFL terms. Hughes is another that I thought showed some real promise and has gone backwards at an alarming rate.

As we saw early in the year against some weaker teams on our home deck when we had both Hill boys up and going, Matera and Cam playing with some confidence as well as Tabs out there we were able to play some lovely fast, attractive, high scoring footy but seemingly as is inevitable we get smashed with some injuries to key playmakers and it all falls in a horrible heap. The back 6 looked impassable at times earlier in the year and the transition was lovely. Its hard to fathom how we seem to be able to destroy all the confidence and attacking flair out of certain types of players.

Today was a perfect storm, too many inexperienced players (some of whom are quite likely not up to the level anyway), injuries again to critical cogs - Pearce, Blakely, Neale, Fyfe (the latter 2 were playing hampered from what I've understood in the analysis here and on the club site).

I suppose in the end you could say we at least didn't give up and played to the end but we are almost certainly heading for bottom 4 which is good in a strong-ish (supposedly) draft year yet we have no 2nd round pick.

Once you accept we have managed to draft/trade/strategise/list manage ourselves firmly into the bottom half of the ladder for the foreseeable future its interesting to see how well we can stay competitive and how certain players develop but I'm not seeing finals footy anytime soon at this rate.
Thats my measured, honest feelings after today but hey things can change quickly. I'm not up to even thinking about the coaching side of it right now.

 

[MrDanggazz]

Just came back from being in guitar/music land since the match. Thanks for tagging me in, since you ask I'll try and say what's been going around my head since the game finished.

Not sure where to start really, it looks like we are going to be in for some real hidings for the rest of the year unless our luck changes with injuries.
As we're seeing, we really don't have much in the shed beyond the best 22. Its obviously too early to make calls on some of the young ones but it looks like we are carrying a fair few players who are either over the hill or simply not good enough. Its easy to say in hindsight but we should have made some tougher decisions earlier on some elder statesman. This feels a bit like the end of 2008 again where once more our list age demographics are out of whack badly.

But until we get a look at Dixon, North, Switkowski, Stranadica etc at the top level and another look at Logue, Darcy, Grey along with both Hills & Taberner we won't really know just how bad this is. Its hard to imagine that any of the untried group with the exception of Dixon are going to be anything but honest toilers and Grey is never going to be more than a supremely tough bit of cannon fodder.

As it is we have battlers like North, Duman, Apeness, Banfield running around half fit and half cocked. , Banfield/Apeness may come to something but its hard to see them as anything more than cattle, ditto Nyhuis, Crowden, Grey, Kersten, Hughes and we know all we need to about Sutcliffe, Spurr, Sheridan. We were probably better off with Mzungu, Crowley, DeBoer and Clancy Pearce than most of the ones I've just mentioned.

We know Cerra & Brayshaw can play, Giro looks interesting at least, I liked the goal he kicked a lot.

As for McCarthy and Matera they have both shown signs of being able to play at a really high level but I have no idea what is going on for them between the ears, particularly Cam. Probably put Tucker in this basket too. Looks a million bucks at times but no consistency. I guess they are all still young-ish in AFL terms. Hughes is another that I thought showed some real promise and has gone backwards at an alarming rate.

As we saw early in the year against some weaker teams on our home deck when we had both Hill boys up and going, Matera and Cam playing with some confidence as well as Tabs out there we were able to play some lovely fast, attractive, high scoring footy but seemingly as is inevitable we get smashed with some injuries to key playmakers and it all falls in a horrible heap. The back 6 looked impassable at times earlier in the year and the transition was lovely. Its hard to fathom how we seem to be able to destroy all the confidence and attacking flair out of certain types of players.

Today was a perfect storm, too many inexperienced players (some of whom are quite likely not up to the level anyway), injuries again to critical cogs - Pearce, Blakely, Neale, Fyfe (the latter 2 were playing hampered from what I've understood in the analysis here and on the club site).

I suppose in the end you could say we at least didn't give up and played to the end but we are almost certainly heading for bottom 4 which is good in a strong-ish (supposedly) draft year yet we have no 2nd round pick.

Once you accept we have managed to draft/trade/strategise/list manage ourselves firmly into the bottom half of the ladder for the foreseeable future its interesting to see how well we can stay competitive and how certain players develop but I'm not seeing finals footy anytime soon at this rate.
Thats my measured, honest feelings after today but hey things can change quickly. I'm not up to even thinking about the coaching side of it right now.

Are you a journalist or something ? Can’t get past how well put together your analysis is, some fine work.

 

[E Shed]

Are you a journalist or something ? Can’t get past how well put together your analysis is, some fine work.

Thank you, no I'm just someone that likes to write sometimes as a way to make sense of things for myself. I've written quite a few songs over the years and I did write a lot of essays at Uni which helps to develop a clear and hopefully well ordered way of writing. My lecturers sometimes made a point of telling me they enjoyed my writing style but I'm not motivated enough by it to do it in any formal way (rather play guitar for that outlet).
It kind of helps me not do my block when times are tough for Freo though

 

[heehaw]

Was there a question? Here's what Ross said:

Bailey Banfield went to the midfield. We just kept exploring and probing with different opportunities for our players and we will continue to do that because that’s what is required. We put Cam McCarthy to centre half back a couple of weeks ago against Sydney. Mitch Crowden went to the back flank (against Sydney). At some point do you put Nat Fyfe to centre-half back and have a look at him there because he is carrying a big load forward and mid? They are the things we are in the position to be able to do.

Seems a reasonable approach to me.

Do you think in the modern game blokes generally play a position - you know like the positions on a whiteboard. Or is the reality more like you might play as a small forward but find yourself spending half you time inside D50 if your team is getting smashed?

Do you think Cerra and Brayshaw should just play in the midfield or build time as forwards with occasional spells in the midfield? I don't really give a s**t where they play as long as they're getting game time.

Do you have trouble with reading comprehension?

Where did I say experimentation is wrong?

What I said was that for players under 50 games, it may be better to play them in positions that they already excel in or are familiar with so they can gain confidence. Otherwise I believe it is poor coaching.

All your examples point out that Lyon puts players in positions that they have no experience in without any prior AFL exposure. Is that good or bad? How many have been a success?

And just playing someone 'so they get game time' is poor coaching as well. But hey, you dont give a s**t because Ross can do no wrong. Eh?

 

[Freoforever86]

Feel bad for McCarthy. Not sure what exactly he could have done today given the ball lived in their forward line for huge periods of the game and when it finally came out it was out numbered on the wing.

I’m not saying he couldn’t have done some more, but Christ we act like he’s an absolute world beater. Remember he had Cameron Patton & Boyd next to him at GWS. 3 monsters. At Freo today he had Cox and Jones.

 

[Ripper]

Do you have trouble with reading comprehension?

Where did I say experimentation is wrong?

What I said was that for players under 50 games, it may be better to play them in positions that they already excel in or are familiar with so they can gain confidence. Otherwise I believe it is poor coaching.

All your examples point out that Lyon puts players in positions that they have no experience in without any prior AFL exposure. Is that good or bad? How many have been a success?

And just playing someone 'so they get game time' is poor coaching as well. But hey, you dont give a s**t because Ross can do no wrong. Eh?

Have a Bex and a good lay down and revisit it tomorrow.
You sound quite tired and emotional


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[ImperialPurple]

Let's not forget the wheels began to fall off at the same time as not only the injury list started to grow to near-on unmanageable levels, but certain stories hit the headlines regarding the senior coach, and the way things were handled by both club and AFL. While they can bang on as much as they like about "external noise" not affecting the "internal machinations" of the club - I call bollocks on that.

According to every media outlet in the county we were a "CLUB IN CRISIS" who had done a major "COVER UP", and were therefore seriously on the nose everywhere. There's no way that wouldn't have affected people at the club on all levels, from coaching staff to playing group, to the young girl who looks sideways and watches herself around senior male staff "just in case".

Then Shane Yarran, then the mounting injury list to key, senior players... it created a perfect storm for some big hidings >> loss of confidence >> more hidings >> 13 players with less than 50 games, away from home >> in-game injuries to key players >> yeah we all saw how it ended.

No one exists in a vacuum, and when all that has gone down in the last couple of months, it's no wonder things look a bit like poo right now. They're humans, trying to make their way in a tough business, and where half the key to being successful is what goes on between the ears. Imagine trying to quieten down that level of external noise.

Let's just get some PERSPECTIVE people.

 

[Freomaniac]

my you are all miserable after a heavy loss!

You know what, despite the thrashing, there were plenty of positives...

-Yeah we kicked 5 goals by 3 quarter time but kicked 7 in the last quarter. there were some away games where freo kicked 5-7 goals in a game.

- there is some good kids coming through.

- Stefan Giro got a debut game. I loved his goal, a side step and then a curved kick from 40m out.

-Apeness had a good game: 17 hit outs and a goal. I hope he strings 4-5 games in a row. I hope he doesn't get delisted like Tanner Smith 2 years ago who looked liked he was working hard.

-Scott Jones got a debut game and he kicked goal too.

-Tucker is slowly becoming good too.


As I said, yes we are stuck on 4 wins. I see freo getting at least another 3-4 wins in the 2nd half of the season. We aint looking too crash hot at the moment. We have some key cogs out of our best 22 in Sandi, both hills etc.

 

[Nolo180]

Yeah theres always a silver lining.

The reality is with the outs at the moment its the perfect time to experiment and what better time than at the G!

Last week against the Roos was the crunch game for mine which had a huge bearing on how the rest of the season would play out. At the beginning of the year I had the last 2 games pencilled in but unfortunately for us the Pies & Roos have lifted to their credit and we haven't due to various reasons.

The front half of the year we've had injury and form issues particularly on the road along with a tough fixture. Now the fixture gets easier but the commitment has been made to full rebuild so who knows how the remainder of the season will play out. I can only pencil in 2 more wins with any conviction now (BL & Carlt @ Optus). If we snag a couple more we will finish level with last year. If we finish with 5 more wins that would exceed my current expectations which have been downgraded significantly from before the season proper started

 

[Quokka]

Having hoped we’d have made the eight prior to the season, ive reassessed and think finishing the season anywhere between tenth and thirteenth will be on par for this side for this season.
Anyone thinking we’d be belting top eight sides is being optimistic to say the least.

I started the season hoping for 10-12 (with that tiniest hope of a shock 7-8th that any longtime footy fan has to have) I'm now thinking we're looking at another top 6 draft pick. GWS happy to be holding our second round pick though Wilson undoubtably worth it.

These are close to the changes that most of us wanted, myself 100% included and unfortunately this is what you get when you drop 1100 odd games of experience for 6 hit and hopes. We gave an average team a big win, hope WHE and the rest enjoy it

Apeness and Jones pretty even, Apeness maybe gets the nod in the end but I liked Jones effort. Cox still showing a bit but once Sandi is fit enough I think it has to be only one of these three. None are world beaters but we're filling gaps here. It feels a bit unfair to Cox but I'd keep Apeness in and drop the other two for faster players, Apeness is at least a slight upgrade for ruck backup and hoping to see if he can add anything upfront with Sandi back.

Didn't rate Duman's or Kersten's game too much though I seem to be in the minority with Kersten at least, Pearce down obviously hurt a lot and no harm in giving Kersten another game or two until Logue is ready for another try.

Too many of our decisions under pressure were the wrong decisions and when you are already down on skill, speed, experience and gameplan you just can't afford that.

 

[Purple Jesus]

Do you have trouble with reading comprehension?

Where did I say experimentation is wrong?

What I said was that for players under 50 games, it may be better to play them in positions that they already excel in or are familiar with so they can gain confidence. Otherwise I believe it is poor coaching.

All your examples point out that Lyon puts players in positions that they have no experience in without any prior AFL exposure. Is that good or bad? How many have been a success?

And just playing someone 'so they get game time' is poor coaching as well. But hey, you dont give a s**t because Ross can do no wrong. Eh?

You do understand that for a team to work in what is a team sport, they need to be intimately familiar with the roles of their fellow team mates and the best way to do that is to play the roles themselves?

I'm not saying throw Giro into the ruck but I am saying that where there is some overlap, absolutely the players should be shuffled around and experimented with.