Traded 12. Cooper Stephens (2020-2022)

I'll agree with your statement when you present a comprehensive measurement and metric system for the bolded characteristic.
Better than "measurements".. let's look back at the standouts of the 2001 superdraft, at which we were extreme beneficiaries.
Luke Hodge
Luke Ball
Chris Judd
Jimmy Bartel
Steve Johnson
James Kelly
Nick Dal Santo
Sam Mitchell
Leigh Montagna
GAJ
Lewis Roberts - Thomson

All footballers
Maybe Judd would have been a standout in a predraft test scenario as he was a physical freak as well, but the rest...
I rest my case.

But Judd himself was possibly an absentee anyway, due to shoulder surgery, but that I am not sure of.
 
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In that case, how do you judge draftees with how they will handle the pressure of AFL level competition when it's not something any of them have been exposed to?

Is that not when potential plays a role - knowing what a kid has produced during their junior career and if they have the potential to step it up against the bigger bodies & experienced players at AFL level?
Have them progress from an U18 comp, to an U19 comp. Watch them play football.
 
Dec 11, 2009
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Have them progress from an U18 comp, to an U19 comp. Watch them play football.

But even then the recruiters will still be using the player's ability in a lower competition to make a call on said player's *potential* to reach the required standard at the highest level of all.

Won't they??
 
But even then the recruiters will still be using the player's ability in a lower competition to make a call on said player's *potential* to reach the required standard at the highest level of all.

Won't they??
Yes, that's the art of recruitment, but my argument is based on current footy ability, nothing else.
Kids that standout at under 12's can become standouts at under 18. Quaint concept for some it seems.
 
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Yes, that's the art of recruitment, but my argument is based on current footy ability, nothing else.
Kids that standout at under 12's can become standouts at under 18. Quaint concept for some it seems.

I see your point, and actually agree that they shouldn't be recruited so young, but also believe that a significant factor in virtually all recruitments is potential....... The faith that a player's ability will translate at senior level.
 
I see your point, and actually agree that they shouldn't be recruited so young, but also believe that a significant factor in virtually all recruitments is potential....... The faith that a player's ability will translate at senior level.
I have no argument against the P word. Still waiting for Cocky are we not?
My only point is the other things that get measured and mentioned as if they are really important.
To me it seems the best footballers tend to be those that play the best footy every year.
 
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I have no argument against the P word. Still waiting for Cocky are we not?
My only point is the other things that get measured and mentioned as if they are really important.
To me it seems the best footballers tend to be those that play the best footy every year.

Agree with all that.

I think we overdose too often on statistics.
 
Better than "measurements".. let's look back at the standouts of the 2001 superdraft, at which we were extreme beneficiaries.
Luke Hodge
Luke Ball
Chris Judd
Jimmy Bartel
Steve Johnson
James Kelly
Nick Dal Santo
Sam Mitchell
Leigh Montagna
GAJ
Lewis Roberts - Thomson

All footballers
Maybe Judd would have been a standout in a predraft test scenario as he was a physical freak as well, but the rest...
I rest my case.

But Judd himself was possibly an absentee anyway, due to shoulder surgery, but that I am not sure of.
So not measurable then?
 
So not measurable then?
Do you know what I mean?

How would you have "measured" the early, mid and late careers of 2 Falcons, Hodge and Bartel?
Certainly not on peripheral tests .
They are both pure footballers, who were talked up as potential stars, delivered, and yet both would have done poorly at external tests
 

Ratcat

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Agree with all that.

I think we overdose too often on statistics.

If they play consistently above then they'll have strong solid stats that backup the hype.
It's when you make small pool choices or decisions based on a few flash moments over solid consistency mistakes are more likely to happen.
Picks at U18 level are highly speculative owing to the immaturity of the candidates making selection all the more difficult.
I think stats and consistency are your only true guide including needs as required. .
 
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If they play consistently above then they'll have strong solid stats that backup the hype.
It's when you make small pool choices or decisions based on a few flash moments over solid consistency mistakes are more likely to happen.
Picks at U18 level are highly speculative owing to the immaturity of the candidates making selection all the more difficult.
I think stats and consistency are your only true guide including needs as required. .
That has to be correct.
I may be off on a different tangent, but was referring to those measurements like 20 m sprints, beep tests, vertical leaps etc, all those measured things at the draft screening which were being mentioned .
 

Ratcat

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That has to be correct.
I may be off on a different tangent, but was referring to those measurements like 20 m sprints, beep tests, vertical leaps etc, all those measured things at the draft screening which were being mentioned .

Yeah and many are very good at all of the above but the game is what matters imo.
I rate players 85% minimum on what they've done on the field the rest is window dressing.
 

Max Milburn

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so no one gets drafted ..?
Read this little quote this morning.
"Almost nine out of every 10 players selected in the 2019 national draft will not play more than 18 games in their first season in the AFL system if the trend from the past five national drafts continues into 2020."
If we are expecting draftees to play round 1, we will disappointed, and that means that "potential" is all we really have to judge them by.
By the way, the above stat makes Clark's effort last year very much extraordinary.
 
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Read this little quote this morning.
"Almost nine out of every 10 players selected in the 2019 national draft will not play more than 18 games in their first season in the AFL system if the trend from the past five national drafts continues into 2020."
If we are expecting draftees to play round 1, we will disappointed, and that means that "potential" is all we really have to judge them by.
By the way, the above stat makes Clark's effort last year very much extraordinary.

I'd be more interested in the number of draftees that debut within the first month of footy, particularly top 40 picks. Plenty get injured or tired across the season and won't reach 18 games but I think most non KPP with talent are going to play early if they are fit these days.

Selwood debut round 1
Taylor debut round 2
Hawkins debut round 2
Ablett debut round 1
Duncan debut round 1
Guthrie debut round 1
Blicavs debut round 1
Parfitt debut round 1
Stewart debut round 1
Kelly debut round 1
Clark debut round 1

If you are going to be a top 15 player you want to be playing early if you are not injured. It is the norm rather than the exception these days.
 
Do you know what I mean?

How would you have "measured" the early, mid and late careers of 2 Falcons, Hodge and Bartel?
Certainly not on peripheral tests .
They are both pure footballers, who were talked up as potential stars, delivered, and yet both would have done poorly at external tests
My point is that if you can't measure what made Hodge a great pick up then you can't demonstrate that Cooper isn't. If "football skill" is art not science then I'll take the judgement of professional artists over amateur critics.
 
My point is that if you can't measure what made Hodge a great pick up then you can't demonstrate that Cooper isn't. If "football skill" is art not science then I'll take the judgement of professional artists over amateur critics.
I am not saying Cooper isn't, different poster I think. My only point is assessing footballers on how they play the game, not additional or external measures to see how fast they run, or how high they jump, ie athletic pursuits. Cooper hopefully is going to be a great player for us. I am only saying I hope these pronouncements are based on available knowledge of his footy prowess to date. That's all we can go on. Whether he has a man's body or not, or a great vertical leap, or great at beep tests , imho, is way less relevant.
 
I am not saying Cooper isn't, different poster I think. My only point is assessing footballers on how they play the game, not additional or external measures to see how fast they run, or how high they jump, ie athletic pursuits. Cooper hopefully is going to be a great player for us. I am only saying I hope these pronouncements are based on available knowledge of his footy prowess to date. That's all we can go on. Whether he has a man's body or not, or a great vertical leap, or great at beep tests , imho, is way less relevant.
Sure, but aspects like running capacity are still important. It's a fairly complex looking decision tree to me
 
Sure, but aspects like running capacity are still important. It's a fairly complex looking decision tree to me
It also evolves during a career. The running capacity of a 16, 17, 18 yo is vastly inferior to that of a 24-27yo. GAJ had minimal running endurance early on. He was played as a small forward correspondingly. Not until the 06 review did he bust a gut and become the gut-running champion mid we know him to be.
We read on recruits bios, areas of improvement, and running capacity is often noted. Very rarely are players available as the real deal from day one.
 
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It also evolves during a career. The running capacity of a 16, 17, 18 yo is vastly inferior to that of a 24-27yo. GAJ had minimal running endurance early on. He was played as a small forward correspondingly. Not until the 06 review did he bust a gut and become the gut-running champion mid we know him to be.
We read on recruits bios, areas of improvement, and running capacity is often noted. Very rarely are players available as the real deal from day one.

Im not saying that your pov is wrong ..but most things are measurable ..its just trying to find the right metric. If someone is poor at running at 16,17,18 they may not get the chance to show their improvement at 24 ... at the way CS responded to having an injury by getting as fit as he could and perfroming well at the combine was another measurable... The in games stuff is probably the combination of a lot of little measurables .. like with Hodges left foot kick of Bartel's overhead marking... but you also look for areas that could potentially be improved or hold someone back...and recently guys like Robertson who ticked a lot of boxes get devalued a bit by his kicking ..he won the Larke but how he kicked was potentially a hold back flaw.

The combine is useful..not the be all and end all ..but just a bit more info..
 

Stocks_go_Up

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Given none of them play afl then none of them have any output to judge. Ate you suggesting draft only 24 year old state leaguers?
What the hell are you talking about. You judge them on what they have done so far. How do you think they come up with top 10 rankings? Potential is the most overused term and excuse for poor performance going around... If only X and y, if only he could stay on the park, if only he wasn't a squib, if only he didn't s**t himself in finals, if only he could kick straight he would be x and y... BS majority of time because the if very rarely happens
 

Max Milburn

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What the hell are you talking about. You judge them on what they have done so far. How do you think they come up with top 10 rankings? Potential is the most overused term and excuse for poor performance going around... If only X and y, if only he could stay on the park, if only he wasn't a squib, if only he didn't s**t himself in finals, if only he could kick straight he would be x and y... BS majority of time because the if very rarely happens
I'm 100% certain now that you don't know the meaning of the word potential.
 

TheMenz Gallery

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Potential is the most overused term and excuse for poor performance going around... If only X and y, if only he could stay on the park, if only he wasn't a squib, if only he didn't s**t himself in finals, if only he could kick straight he would be x and y... BS majority of time because the if very rarely happens
If only and potential aren’t the same thing.

If only, Cooper Stephens had Gaz Snr’s size, skill and aerial ability, combined with Gaz Jnr’s ball accumulating ability, decision making and disposal in close. He could be the World’s Greatest Australian.

Potentially, I think Cooper Stephens could be another Joel Corey.

There are no “if onlys” that could have possibly turned Joel Corey into Gaz Snr/Jnr.

Any future player needs to be rated on what they potentially could be and not on what we wish they could be.
 
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I'd be more interested in the number of draftees that debut within the first month of footy, particularly top 40 picks. Plenty get injured or tired across the season and won't reach 18 games but I think most non KPP with talent are going to play early if they are fit these days.

Selwood debut round 1
Taylor debut round 2
Hawkins debut round 2
Ablett debut round 1
Duncan debut round 1
Guthrie debut round 1
Blicavs debut round 1
Parfitt debut round 1
Stewart debut round 1
Kelly debut round 1
Clark debut round 1

If you are going to be a top 15 player you want to be playing early if you are not injured. It is the norm rather than the exception these days.

And to add to this I think you want to see talls or late picks do the same in their second season.

i.e.

Henry debut round 2
Ratugolea debut round 1
Miers debut round 1

If they can't then that is when you need to turn the list over more if players are not best 22 or projecting to be after 2 years on the list. Rucks would be the exception but we don't draft them anyway....
 
What the hell are you talking about. You judge them on what they have done so far. How do you think they come up with top 10 rankings? Potential is the most overused term and excuse for poor performance going around... If only X and y, if only he could stay on the park, if only he wasn't a squib, if only he didn't s**t himself in finals, if only he could kick straight he would be x and y... BS majority of time because the if very rarely happens
You're implying that the players we've selected aren't being selected on their work to date.
 
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